I rolled my eyes at this guy's first video and I roll them again at this one.

You can roll your eyes all you want, but you seem to be voting with your wallet based on your JJP heavy collection.

Listen, I get why people don't want to hear the truth, but everything the guy is saying I have witnessed first hand.

When he pulled the laptop out and compared it to node board CPU 0 - I thought, robbing bastards, I’m out
You see, Stern pull the above shit with a kick in the stones... but then redeem themselves with the IMDN code update??? Do you think the decision makers have a split personality disorder over there in Illinois

Gotta love the defenders... making fun of people for wasting time posting about their issues, while spending their time posting in a thread about issues they claim to not care about. This is a thread *about* playfield issues. I'm not saying that I agree that everything posted here is a major issue, but I think each individual is capable of making their own decisions about how these things affect them and their own purchases.

Yep, the node boards are $200 a clip!...and they aren't interchangeable across machines?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/kiss-lights-out-updating-node-board

The issue he raised in the video about the system software having almost no useful Spike specific information was SPOT ON! George agrees with this, and has promised improvements, which NEVER HAPPEN. We're talking about YEARS, not months here (so the person that authored the video is far from impatient!).

I understand why people want to put their head in the sand...I'm one of them! (since I continue to purchase Stern games). I confess...I'm an addict I am able to reconcile the dude is right and I'm simply addicted to pinball. Nevertheless, I admire him for trying to effect change. Considering the topic of this thread, you'd think more people would sympathize with the video. Oh well.

^^^ Spike 1 - mmm I’ve heard more than a few issues now. Just waiting on my extremely low play Kiss LE having node issues.
That node board hack / condition of the PCB in your link is extremely poor.

I'm not gonna go point by point with this guy, but he makes A LOT of bold and unsubstantiated claims. For instance, he claims that JJP games have FAR fewer issues than Stern games. I'd love to see the evidence/data on that one! In fact, I've heard of nearly every Stern competitor's games having issues. He also seems to greatly exaggerate the extent of node board failures on Sterns. Do they happen? Yes, of course, but I wouldn't say they are common. Haven't had any node board issues with any Sterns I've owned. He says that used Stern Spike games eventually become a very expensive burden for their owners. Hmm, then why do prices on used Stern Spike games keep going up? Surely if they were expensive to maintain nightmares, their prices would be going down?

Also, this guy says that he thinks Stern games will eventually become so unreliable and expensive to repair that they'll only be worth pennies on the dollar! Ha, I'll buy all the Sterns I can at those prices!

Regardless, in spite of so many people complaining about expensive node boards or poor quality pfs, it doesn't matter. Stern is making money hand over fist. They've got thousands more orders than they can even fill. And they sell more and more pins each year. So for all the talk, and in some cases legitimate complaints, Stern isn't going to alter the way they do things until it affects their bottom line, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. Things would have to get very bad indeed before people would actually stop buying Stern games en masse.

No it isn't. The main node boards are compatible across all Spike 2 systems (Node 0, 1, 8, 9); they are even called common node boards in the manual. The daughter boards such as lights are obviously not because they are formed to each games layout; no different practice than JJP, CGC, etc.

Lermods responded to this video in another thread that I think warrants a read too:

Yeah but I've had 2 SPIKE games and believe the system is well designed. I would certainly not hesitate to buy another.

I agree...some of the claims were bold and unsubstantiated. I've only owned one JJP game, and it's been pretty solid, but I imagine JJP games have their share of problems! No doubt. The top 3 points that struck a chord with me were:

- The Stern warranty sucks. Considering most games are purchased for home use and our community has kept Stern ticking through COVID, it would be great if Stern improved it's warranty.

- Spike diagnostics support for diagnosing what's wrong is primitive. Gomez apparent support for improving the diagnostic, but doing nothing after several years. Why? They want to sell replacement boards at a premium price...

- The high cost of these replacement boards. Considering how little action most home use games get, it's just unacceptable to have a board die after 200 plays. In a sane world, Stern's software accounting would dictate warranty coverage (rather than elapsed time).

My Munsters CPU died after 40 plays...thank goodness it decided to die early! I believe those suckers are $600 IIRC!

This notion that Stern is "making money hand over fist" doesn't mean we (as consumers) shouldn't speak up. I have so many examples where I have effected change by lobbying with Stern directly (or most recently another manufacturer). If we don't hold out our collective hands, Stern will never throw us a bone. Again, I still support Stern with my $$. Just because I buy their products doesn't mean I can't be critical. In fact, I've been a die hard Stern supporter since 2004, which should give me even more ability to give them thoughtful feedback directly or through social media. Every now and then, they listen.

and out of date...
and one sided....
and with an agenda...

He's anti-stern because he got his grey market importing busted up.

Ding Ding - On the money !

Stern released a counter point video. Not an accident that the titles of both videos are almost identical. It is very well done.

He is no wise pinball guy. He was parallell importing and selling the same games he is putting shit on. He just got caught so he made the video. Sour grapes.

Don't know him. Apparently, you do. Whatever. Sour grapes or not, there is some truth in that video. As someone who has bought my fair share of NIB Sterns over 16 years. If you don't see any truth, then you have had better luck than I have (though I've seen you be very critical of Stern in other posts).

I can be very critical of Stern. We have been buying their games for 11 years. That guy is just a douche bag that got caught out. Spike 2 has been extremely reliable for us so from our point of view he is wrong. The node boards and CPUs are actually very easy to repair if you know how.

Merry Christmas to you and your family!

-If the warranty was longer (10 years) and it still had issues after that warranty expire date everyone would still complain.That being said I do agree if something goes astray out of the gate or just there after it sure would be nice for a manufacture to be more supportive possibly because of the smaller consumer market that they need try to keep happy.

-What is the actual cost of a node board to manufacturer? Where is the black and white paper showing that number? 5$ 20$ 75$ ??? If your worried about price markups don't ever dive into vehicle replacement parts you will have a stroke.

-Comparing a laptop to a machine is apples to oranges. Laptops models are made in batches by the hundred thousands, millions and such. That allows internals to be manufactured way cheaper so the retail prices can remain lower for more of the population to afford. If we had a market that demands a pinball in every home sure make a run of 3 million machines for every single title and the costs would be lower.

-We all know that more modern pinball machines a lot going on inside of them, more toys, more features, more electronics and such that the buyers demand. Most want a Konig for the price of a Kia and expect it to perform forever with no issues.

I'm unsure who he is or what his agenda is? Care to help me out?

What exactly did you not like? He made some very excellent and thought provoking points.

New systems always seem to have issues early on. SAM was a disaster in WPT. They ended up having to replace all of the WPT MPU boards with a redesign. Look at the horrendous node board issues on WOZ that went on for years. The early SPIKE games had inexcusable problems based on the fact the the whole idea of SPIKE is simplicity and reliability. Now that SPIKE has been around for a while it is rock solid and issues like on the early games are very rare. To me SPIKE 2 is the best system going right now and I have never had the slightest problem with SW, BKSOR the Beatles and other games through here on loan/temp trade. I do like the AP system too.

Automotive technology is the state of the art right now for reliability and that is what SPIKE is based on. They even use it on rockets these days. Just ask Elon Musk.

In a sane world, Stern would treat customers with Spike 1 issues well (like I had with my KISS Premium). Despite numerous attempts to plead my case, Stern still asked me to cough up $200 for a new node board for a game with ~200 plays on it. And this is what I received! A refurbed board with jumpers!

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/kiss-lights-out-updating-node-board#post-4521132

Shit, I've been buying NIB game since 2004 and still feel like I get treated like crap. If I bought this many cars from the same dealer, I can tell you they would treat me like a king. Just a side-effect of never making the cultural shift over to appreciating the collector community. Frustrating.

No doubt Spike 2 is more solid. Since it is, they should revise their warranty and throw us a bone or 2.

Very good video which exposes the MANY issues that new Stern games continuously have. The price keeps going up but the quality keeps going down. Nearly all of my new in box games have had multiple issues from Stern.

I think that you're confusing car roles. In this scenario your car dealer isn't Stern. Stern would be a big car manf. like Ford or Chevy. Your distro would be the equivalent of a car dealer. So your distro is the one who should be treating you like a king.

I hope there is another great Stern Service Tech like Chas. Even with failed boards he came through a number of times. I have just started to try a repair these for the operator I do work for (we share a workshop). Chas would not officially state that the tiny surface ic (I changed the 2 larger ones) is a problem one. Stern likely has a gag order, same with the non stop Stern Hype about how good the Spike System has been. Nice video by George, even helped a old service tech like myself.

True. They should have made things right for the early SPIKE failures like they eventually did for SAM. I got a new MPU for my WPT to replace the defective SAM MPU many months after buying the game. Stern did make us wait with broken machines until after POTC came out and was a hit, then the went back and gave us new boards and eventually some really nice software updates. It was a really slow process though.

Did Stern or your Distro help you out with all your issues? What did they say?

I agree.. We have bought plenty of games and our Distro always looks after us.

Get yourself a good distro. Ours looks after us really well. Makes a massive difference.

Not confused...obviously. The problem is distributors typically aren't local and they have very limited ability to deal with many of the issues. Of all the NIB games I've purchased, I'd say 7 or so were purchased from local distributors and in most instances they took care of the minor issues (like board problems). For other build related problems, in no instance were they willing to pay for a technician to come to my home to deal with the fallout. That was my responsibility.

The big thing YOU are missing is many games change hands within the first year (I've bought many). In this instance, Stern should be responsible. This idea that the warranty is only for the original purchaser is just wrong. Not true for cars, shouldn't be true for pinball. Not saying Stern doesn't still take care of people, but it's hit or miss. The other huge difference with the car industry is I can take my car to ANY "distributor" and they will fix my car (because they get paid by the manufacturer). I have PinballDudes down the road from me in Florida and they will only service a game they sold me. Huge difference.

Radio Check - Am I still in the PF issue thread?

No, I don't think I am missing anything! My point was that no one at Ford HQ will know your name or give a crap about you, even if you buy 10 Ford F150s in 10 years. However, if you bought them all from the same dealer, then that dealer would certainly know your name and want to give you the best service possible when you walk onto the lot.

As far as repairs go, that's a whole different kettle of fish. Because while you can take your car to any dealer to get repaired, once your car is out of warranty, you're paying that dealer cash for the repairs, just like you would for a pinball repair. Also, every car dealer has a full-service mechanics shop, while not every pinball distro is trained or kitted out to do full-time repair work. So the real issues are that Stern's warranty period is too short, and that not every distro is able and willing to do lots of repair work.

Another thing to consider is that almost every family needs a car to survive, and you've got lots of safety issues when it comes to cars, so there are a lot of govt. regulations on the automobile industry. Whereas pinball is a niche toy hobby.

But I do agree that it would be great if Stern's warranty period lasted longer. And yeah, people who have good distro's close to them are especially lucky.

OMG...I've bought 20 or so new cars over my lifetime and probably over 50 pins (many of them new). I don't need you to school me on the differences...the pinball warrantees are woefully short (you agree, apparently) and should be transferrable. Since I keep my cars 2-3 years max and never pass the mileage limit, I am basically always covered.

In practice, pinball manufacturers DO support second hand owners...I've bought many NOB games and have always been taken care of by Stern and JJP (since a NOB purchase doesn't have a distributor associated with them).

Not only are pinball warranties a joke they basically provide ZERO services. For 99% of the problems they send u a part and expect u to provide the labor. Imagine if a car company sent you a new engine and said "install yourself"....

Imagine if they asked you to wheel your car to the factory service center on a hand cart! lol

The car companies do give you touch up paint for all the paint chips!

Isnt that for damage due to growel and small stones?
If a car company gave me touch up paint for assembly or manufacturing dmg i would never accept it.

That.said, this thread slowing down, is hopefully a really good sign.

Sadly the thread tends to come to life whenever a new pin drops. Good luck to all the Led Zeppelin buyers.

They will need it, unfortunately.

No doubt, but I will say these pinball companies have it made. For the most part parts are relatively cheap. Whats expensive is labor so it kind of blows my mind they don't provide longer warranties for parts as they rarely provide labor unless its some rare situation. They are very fortunate that most pinball owners enjoy working on games and are good with their hands.

I would agree. Depending on who you are fine tuning and repairs are a bit therapeutic for the most part. Board repair not so much lol.

Still hoping the troubles are behind the companies and us enthusiasts.

Just a observation that playfields with long perfect lines going from top to bottom are from drum sanding. The grit is likely to coarse since SPEED OF PRODUCTION is being done. The small producers of playfields either hand orbital sander or use a belt sander. My 2 cents it is what it is but another likely part of problems going on. I look at the cost of many hundreds of dollars to make a playfield compared to mass production & a seemingly very low cost amount suggested here for a new playfield.

Spot on...and just to build on your point. For my IMDN Premium, I spent 6 weeks dialing the thing in. Sure, it was fun (for me at least) to try and diagnose/fix the problems, but it's a slap in the face when I get nicked/dimed on node boards (just to take an example). Stern support is usually behind the curve on subtle build related issues.

I have seen 3 recent games pass inspection with this issue now.

This has been a thing for years. My 2006 pirates has the exact same lines that my Nov 2020 Guardians has. The lines are identical which would seem to indicate sanding or some sort of machine is doing it. Same lines as seen in the lz promo images too.

Accidental double post

No bubbles anymore on my JP innerloop.
I got lucky, I got one with a hard playfield.
The dimples are small after 4 thousand balls played. I made a plastic rim in the innerloop that presses the bubble down and makes shure the metal isn't eating my playfield anymore.

IMG_20210107_194036 (resized).jpg

IMG_20210107_194138~01~01 (resized).jpg

IMG_20210107_201857~01 (resized).jpg

You scored on that one. I have seen some of the same JP playfields with lots of dimples and some with very little. All had the same amount of plays.

It’s sad we as customers have to do this.

What is even sadder is people are still lining up to buy more games from Stern when they full well know that this is the quality you get.

Yes I know, if you have one with softer wood the dimples are as deep as craters with Stern. JJP chips, it's a shame, hope they make a primer that holds the digital print and go back to the diamant plate clear.
I am always very critical about the playfield quality from every manufacturer in the last 4 years. I had a highway FT chipping. Know this was a gamble but I had to have a Stern JP.