(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

1 year ago



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There are 7569 posts in this topic. You are on page 141 of 152.
#7001 87 days ago

Sorry if this has been asked previously, but does mirco's repro playfields have the pooling problem or is it just the new games? Are the repro playfields silk screened and the new ones digital printed? I don't know, but I am really starting to be a believer in the "its the printing thats going bad" vs a problem with the clear coat. If the printing isn't adhering properly, the clear won't stand a chance. Maybe the clear and the ink don't play nice together? I know this has been talked about, but I'm just saying its a good theory. Maybe all this bitching about the clear coat, and we should be bitching about the ink instead. I just want to know if the repro playfields are seeing the same problems or not.

#7002 87 days ago

My Mrs went to get her nails done last week.
The Vietnamese lady is an expert at doing nails. My Mrs asked for an extra clear coat topping to make it look nicer.
The expert just stared at her for a while then said "Are you crazy? It will never harden.....no, it doesn't work like that!"

Food for thought

#7003 87 days ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Yeah, I wish we could import non-EPA diesel Toyotas from Australia here too, its not fair we have to suffer because of all these unnecessary regulations.

Pollution is fine as long as it is always far away from me.

#7004 87 days ago
Quoted from branlon8:

Pollution is fine as long as it is always far away from me.

If it wasn't for all these damn tree huggers!

Bring back the chemicals and sort this mess out.

Some good holidays going just now also.....
Seal clubbing, two for the price of one

clubbing (resized).jpg
#7005 87 days ago
Quoted from Sako-TRG:

If it wasn't for all these damn tree huggers!
Bring back the chemicals and sort this mess out.
Some good holidays going just now also.....
Seal clubbing, two for the price of one
[quoted image]

If those seals were ugly nobody would care.

#7006 87 days ago
Quoted from Sako-TRG:

Bring back the chemicals and sort this mess out.

Indeed, all problems of the world can be solved with modern chemistry. Oh wait, which „mess“ do you mean?

#7007 87 days ago
Quoted from Sako-TRG:

My Mrs went to get her nails done last week.
The Vietnamese lady is an expert at doing nails. My Mrs asked for an extra clear coat topping to make it look nicer.
The expert just stared at her for a while then said "Are you crazy? It will never harden.....no, it doesn't work like that!"
Food for thought

Get this lady making play fields

#7008 87 days ago
Quoted from Sako-TRG:

My Mrs went to get her nails done last week.
The Vietnamese lady is an expert at doing nails. My Mrs asked for an extra clear coat topping to make it look nicer.
The expert just stared at her for a while then said "Are you crazy? It will never harden.....no, it doesn't work like that!"
Food for thought

Somewhat on topic, can you ask her if Before the clear they used a UV light to Harden the color? Bet I know the answer..... And NO I don't get my nails done! lol

#7009 87 days ago
Quoted from branlon8:

Indeed, all problems of the world can be solved with modern chemistry. Oh wait, which „mess“ do you mean?

Or software.... Volkswagen TDI anyone??

#7010 87 days ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

Sorry if this has been asked previously, but does mirco's repro playfields have the pooling problem or is it just the new games? Are the repro playfields silk screened and the new ones digital printed? I don't know, but I am really starting to be a believer in the "its the printing thats going bad" vs a problem with the clear coat. If the printing isn't adhering properly, the clear won't stand a chance. Maybe the clear and the ink don't play nice together? I know this has been talked about, but I'm just saying its a good theory. Maybe all this bitching about the clear coat, and we should be bitching about the ink instead. I just want to know if the repro playfields are seeing the same problems or not.

It could also be a combination of issues, if you look at the pics the paint is coming off with the clear, which may indicate bad adhesion of paint to the wood but if the clear is pooling this could mean the clearcoat is not fully hardened yet. So it's a little confusing I know....but to address the pooling the clear needs to be reformulated or cured more. We don't know how long Mirco lets the pfs rest before shipping them out.....also how many times does he go over them. 2x or 4x? or does he do one heavy coat and one light coat....etc. Either way, he needs to investigate this and retool his process. This is something preventable and unlike dimpling we can all agree this is not normal.

#7011 87 days ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

That is so much bull it's not even funny.
They make epoxi-floor where people park their cars.

I have an epoxy floor that can withstand jet fuel. Hilarious that people think water based coatings can’t be strong.

There’s several clear car paint coatings that are super hard and resistant to rock chips, perhaps they need to be explored.

#7012 87 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Somewhat on topic, can you ask her if Before the clear they used a UV light to Harden the color? Bet I know the answer..... And NO I don't get my nails done! lol

Lol....she was gassing on the phone:-

Apart from the boring process which she tried to talk me through about sticking the fake nails on
The less painful bit goes like this:
1 x coat of nail polish (colour) UV light
2nd coat of nail polish (colour) UV light
Top coat of clear UV light
No more than 1 top coat of clear otherwise it clumps and doesn't set

#7013 87 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

At this point JJP needs considering finding a new playfield manufacturer or bring the process in house. The last thing customers of $7k - $12k+ pinball machines should have to worry about is playfield quality. This issue has affected runs of Dialed In, Pirates, Wonka, and now GNR. 100's of games have been affected over the years. This is a major issue and one that results in a negative impact on resale value. How many chances is JJP going to keep giving Mirco?

You just said this has been going on over many releases, yet sales on successive releases aren't affected. So, why does JJP -need- to do anything?

JJP, or Stern for that matter, doesn't need to do anything until sales are affected. Should we really see these companies as anything other than capitalists? Jack may have had some altruism at some point, like during Hobbit development. But looks like the bean counters are firmly in charge now.

The -real- question is how many chances are buyers going to give JJP or Stern. At this point, the answer is self-evident: the average buyer doesn't see this as a significant enough issue.

#7014 87 days ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

At this point, the answer is self-evident: the average buyer doesn't see this as a significant enough issue.

Yup

-4
#7015 87 days ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

You just said this has been going on over many releases, yet sales on successive releases aren't affected. So, why does JJP -need- to do anything?
JJP, or Stern for that matter, doesn't need to do anything until sales are affected. Should we really see these companies as anything other than capitalists? Jack may have had some altruism at some point, like during Hobbit development. But looks like the bean counters are firmly in charge now.
The -real- question is how many chances are buyers going to give JJP or Stern. At this point, the answer is self-evident: the average buyer doesn't see this as a significant enough issue.

Ergo, Capitalism sucks.

#7016 87 days ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

the average buyer doesn't see this as a significant enough issue.

Only an idiot would not see this to be a problem. Either that or a fool with too much extra spending money.

#7017 87 days ago
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#7018 87 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Only an idiot would not see this to be a problem. Either that or a fool with too much extra spending money.

But that’s not what they said. They said the average person doesn’t consider it to be enough of an issue to stop buying NIB. Of course it’s a problem.

#7019 87 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Only an idiot would not see this to be a problem. Either that or a fool with too much extra spending money.

You need to inform all NIB buyers how misguided they are.

cloud.gif

#7020 87 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

But that’s not what they said. They said the average person doesn’t consider it to be enough of an issue to stop buying NIB. Of course it’s a problem.

The average person is not very smart. Thats no secret there.

#7021 87 days ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

You need to inform all NIB buyers how misguided they are.
[quoted image]

Thats what this thread is partially about.

#7022 87 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

The average person is not very smart. Thats no secret there.

You are 100% correct.

#7023 87 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Thats what this thread is partially about.

Most NIB buyers will never see this thread and a lot of them will have never even heard of pinside.

Unless you want to go harass people outside of a distributors showroom, I don't think there is much you can do to really raise the awareness in the non-enthusiast part of the hobby.

A lot of NIB buyers just want something to fill out their game room and are only going to play their game a couple hundred times in its life.

#7024 87 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Most NIB buyers will never see this thread and a lot of them will have never even heard of pinside.
Unless you want to go harass people outside of a distributors showroom, I don't think there is much you can do to really raise the awareness in the non-enthusiast part of the hobby.
A lot of NIB buyers just want something to fill out their game room and are only going to play their game a couple hundred times in its life.

Im not the one who started this thread, im only participating in it. The goal of this thread is not to put JJP or Stern out of business, its to try and get these manufacturers to up their quality. Its also about letting people know how these companies are treating their customers and to let people know the playfield quality issues that are going on at any given time so people don't run out and buy a defective product that these companies wont stand behind. For the people that don't care, i would say this thread is not a thread that they should be concerned with. Its just pinheads looking out for each other. The internet is a great thing.

#7025 87 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Im not the one who started this thread, im only participating in it. The goal of this thread is not to put JJP or Stern out of business, its to try and get these manufacturers to up their quality. Its also about letting people know how these companies are treating their customers and to let people know the playfield quality issues that are going on at any given time so people don't run out and buy a defective product that these companies wont stand behind. For the people that don't care, i would say this thread is not a thread that they should be concerned with. Its just pinheads looking out for each other. The internet is a great thing.

You're preaching to the choir here.

It's not that most people don't care; it's that most people don't know. And threads like this only do so much to spread the news because most people buying pins aren't here.

#7026 87 days ago

I think people care more and less based on levels of severity. If huge chunks of artwork was coming off the playfield vs a spec by the post that you need a to do a 10x zoom on a photo to see clearly are totally different things. Both suck, but far different levels of suck.

11
#7027 87 days ago

If it makes you all feel better, I have not bought any NIB pins since this thread got started. And this thread was partially responsible !

13
#7028 87 days ago

**** washers. They are not a solution and look like crap.

#7029 87 days ago
Quoted from kvan99:

which may indicate bad adhesion of paint to the wood but if the clear is pooling

Nothing is "pooling." The end result looks like circular ripples, but the art and clear together are being pushed and pulled by the movement of the posts or rails and is lifting off the playfield, then bunching up around the object that pushed/pulled it.

This isn't much difference from the leg and decal issues on WPC games. A cabinet would be sitting raised on a pinball lifter. Legs were attached and legbolts tightened. When the cabinet was lowered, the legs would slide UP the cabinet, to the extent of the slop in the mounting holes. This would tear and bunch up the cabinet decals just above the legs.

In this case, the art and clear stick to the playfield posts and not to the wood. The post moves slightly as rubbers are installed and the game gets played, and the clear+art bunches up on the sides of the post, creating that ripple that looks like pooling.

For legs, the simple fix is to ram the leg to the top of the slop BEFORE tightening the bolts, but in this case the pressure only pushes up. With playfield posts, the posts can scoot all around if they're not tight enough, so make sure your posts are good and tight.

#7030 87 days ago
Quoted from metallik:

so make sure your posts are good and tight.

I think that's what's causing the issue though, time and pressure, not sliding or digging in as described with the leg example. Maybe to a slight extent with the "pooling" showing on the inner sling where the force is directed downward from the sling. I think it would be better to isolate the sling posts with more rigid plastics onthe top of the posts to prevent angling/towing in at the bases as the sling rubber pulls inward. But you can see perfect 360 circles on posts that have no rubbers and the washers or posts sink uniformly into the clear..I would actually say keep the posts as loose as possible, just hand tight as much as they won't move when the slings fire but not enough to cause any excess pressure, that in conjuction with reinforced plastic protectors for rigidity

16
#7031 87 days ago

Softer wood cheaper, digital printing cheaper, waterbase clearcoat cheaper.
And the whole process is faster and therefore more cheaper again.
Thats the only reason, not because they cant produce quality playfields.
So live with it or don't buy this crap quality.

#7032 87 days ago

Not happy with these issues but hearing that Stern have a backlog of 5000 games makes me think we are going to get more of the same going forward unfortunately.

#7033 87 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

It's not that most people don't care; it's that most people don't know.

That's an assumption.

I have never owned a NIB game, but I do know that every other game I've owned so far shows (at least light) playfield damage around posts, bolts, screws. Even in areas where the ball does not come, eg. a post which is not directly hit by a ball there's always slight lacquer/paint/imprint damage wherever something is bolted to the playfield.

Pinball machines are meant to be played. You're mashing a heavy ball bearing around a wooden playfield populated with plastics, posts etc. which will damage over time. When a pinball gets its intended use (which is hundreds/thousands of plays), a 1mm pooling circle which requires a magnifying glass to be seen will be the least of your worries in terms of wear & tear. For this reason I can understand that manufacturers do not have fixing of sporadic pooling damage during production on the top of their priority list.

#7034 87 days ago
Quoted from pinballwil:

Softer wood cheaper, digital printing cheaper, waterbase clearcoat cheaper.

download (3) (resized).jpeg
#7035 87 days ago

Stern MAY have this almost under control
AIQ buyers issues (myself included) seem to be isolated to ballguides being torqued into the PF buy an air gun on a hexnut under the PF. A few of us loosed a couple areas of concern and lifted the guides using a small fiber washer.

Many of us agree the JP premiums/TMNT/AIQs playfields are off good quality so far. Dimples are extremely minor, if the wood was junk that may not be the case. Posts look fine.

So if you don’t have a chipped shooter lane, torqued guides, you should be good. There are signs Stern is trying to get this under control. Cabinets are more robust, coil stops seem to be improved-overall, including the playfield the games are evolving slightly (can’t say “improved” because some of the mechs are still faulty)

#7036 87 days ago

Op make a poll for gnr owners that have pooling and those without pooling. Let’s see what percentages we get.

#7037 87 days ago
Quoted from pinballwil:

waterbase clearcoat cheaper.

I don't know why so many assume that waterbase clearcoats are worse and cheaper. There are some incredibly durable 2 part waterborne clearcoats out there but they are still very expensive and most importantly have a very short pot life after mixed (20 min or so). This last part would made it a big hassle in a high volume production environment.

#7038 87 days ago
Quoted from tbutler6:

Stern MAY have this almost under control
AIQ buyers issues (myself included) seem to be isolated to ballguides being torqued into the PF buy an air gun on a hexnut under the PF. A few of us loosed a couple areas of concern and lifted the guides using a small fiber washer.
Many of us agree the JP premiums/TMNT/AIQs playfields are off good quality so far. Dimples are extremely minor, if the wood was junk that may not be the case. Posts look fine.
So if you don’t have a chipped shooter lane, torqued guides, you should be good. There are signs Stern is trying to get this under control. Cabinets are more robust, coil stops seem to be improved-overall, including the playfield the games are evolving slightly (can’t say “improved” because some of the mechs are still faulty)

Not sure if there’s an “almost” to this. It’s either fixed or not. Every new release there’s a group of people who say “problem solved because mine has no problems”. I don’t think it works that way, but I’m sincerely happy yours is good!

#7039 87 days ago
Quoted from Svend:

You're mashing a heavy ball bearing around a wooden playfield populated with plastics, posts etc. which will damage over time. When a pinball gets its intended use (which is hundreds/thousands of plays), a 1mm pooling circle which requires a magnifying glass to be seen will be the least of your worries in terms of wear & tear. For this reason I can understand that manufacturers do not have fixing of sporadic pooling damage during production on the top of their priority list.

The problem with your argument is 100's of thousands of games before the last 5 years didn't have this issue let alone right out of the box. There's pictures of peoples play fields chipping around posts in reportedly 30 games. IF you're OK with that cool ..... I believe most people aren't. My .02
And the argument of metal against wood - get a Kruzman clear job and I assure you that argument is no longer valid. *shameless plug for Ron!*

#7040 87 days ago
Quoted from liftmagnet:

I don't know why so many assume that waterbase clearcoats are worse and cheaper. There are some incredibly durable 2 part waterborne clearcoats out there but they are still very expensive and most importantly have a very short pot life after mixed (20 min or so).

Yeah, that must be what they are using on these playfields. The real expensive stuff.

#7041 87 days ago
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17
#7042 87 days ago

Played today in a busy local location where the games get tons of play. I got a good look at all of the games, because it was an off hour on a Monday and not many people waiting to play. They have basically every new Stern, Rick and Morty along with GNR LE, WW and DI. All of the games had dimpling, with Rick and Morty having the least. GNR is the newest game, so the dimpling had not covered the whole playfield yet.

As for pooling and chipping:
An early run Iron Maiden was probably the worst because it had pooling along with art chipping around many posts.
Second worst was a gold Beatles with a ton of play that had pooling on a number of posts and very minor chipping on a couple.
Both Avengers IQ Premium and TMNT Pro had nice clear coats with no pooling.
Guns and Roses LE (October 2020 build date) had pooling on few posts. No chipping yet.
Early JP with tons of play minor pooling not bad at all though.
Stranger Things, Elvira 3, Deadpool, BKSoR and GOTG did not see any pooling or chipping.

A few side notes... I will say that my favorite game of the newest crop is a tie between Rick and Morty and the AIQ Premium. I love the theme on R&M, but the playfield and ramps on AIQ are a work of art. The shots on AIQ are like butter and innovative to say the least. I played a number of games and want one for home even though I am not a comic book guy. Another note was just how unimpressive GnR sounds when put next to even a Stern Pro. When JJP moved the boards from the cabinet to the back box for DI, they turned the mid range speakers facing up instead of towards the player as they were before. The result is tinny sound unless you shell out for the CE and get the sound bar up top. Not a GnR fan, but the game was fun to play and I liked the lighting strips on the sides of the playfield. On a whole, it was a less impressive than the fancy JJP promo videos and glamor shots from the release had me expecting. Not at all interested in owning one at this point.

#7043 87 days ago
Quoted from John_I:

Played today in a busy local location where the games get tons of play.

Just that gets my applause. Other coast they won't even let us go bowling. And pinball ops are selling what they've got just to pay rent or eat.

#7044 87 days ago
Quoted from o-din:

Just that gets my applause. Other coast they won't even let us go bowling. And pinball ops are selling what they've got just to pay rent or eat.

30+ games. Temp check at the entrance. Must wear mask and there is plenty of hand sanitizer available.

#7045 87 days ago
Quoted from John_I:

30+ games. Temp check at the entrance. Must wear mask and there is plenty of hand sanitizer available.

What place is this? We go to Florida for vacation once a year and would love to check it out!

#7046 87 days ago
Quoted from John_I:

30+ games. Temp check at the entrance. Must wear mask and there is plenty of hand sanitizer available.

That would work here. The weather is so dry now, I can't imagine that virus would have much shelf life anyway.

We may be making progress though. I saw a school bus today.

-1
#7047 87 days ago
Quoted from o-din:

Yeah, that must be what they are using on these playfields. The real expensive stuff.

I made no claim to knowledge about what products any manufactures are using nor their process; I also highly doubt that anyone here is privy to any of that information as well.

All I was saying is that having to use waterborne products is no excuse for the poor quality.

#7048 87 days ago

Hate to see this is still a problem, my 2 cents is,
My TNA, ALICE, and Rick & Mortey playfields are pristine.

OFF TOPIC. I'm getting my house tented for termites in two weeks.
I was planning on covering my pins with heavy plastic.
Any advice ? never had to tent before?

Thanks.

Message from the being eaten out of house and home Freeeek Kingdom.

#7049 87 days ago

It's true what John I said though. He is an honest voice of reason.

Yes, my Rick and Morty has dimples too. They are almost identical to the minute dimples on my old school No Fear. But shinier.

Not even worth looking for.

#7050 87 days ago
Quoted from gonzo73:

OFF TOPIC. I'm getting my house tented for termites in two weeks.
I was planning on covering my pins with heavy plastic.
Any advice ? never had to tent before?

I think they use a gas rather than a liquid chemical or fog. There should be no residue. We have a lot of termites in Florida and services that put your items in a shed to be gassed for a weekend to kill anything in them. I've had some old games gassed and saw no residue or signs at all. I also saw a lot of nice furniture and antiques when loading my games into the gas shed.

Quoted from pinballj:

What place is this? We go to Florida for vacation once a year and would love to check it out!

Pinball Lounge in Oviedo Bowling Center. Full liquor bar and food menu at your fingertips along with the bowling.

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