(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

3 months ago



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There are 3239 posts in this topic. You are on page 14 of 65.
#651 3 months ago
Quoted from WackyBrakke:

When older game don’t have the issue and new ones do. Fuck it. Bye

Bye fellow pinner.
Peace

#652 3 months ago
Quoted from Pinchild:

Bye fellow pinner.
Peace

I’m not leaving, just not buying this crap.

#653 3 months ago
Quoted from WackyBrakke:

I’m not leaving, just not buying this crap.

And no one could blame you.

I’d hate to be in the position where I’m selling this shit.

#654 3 months ago
Quoted from Pinchild:

Yes.
Folk from Colorado do have anger issues.

What’s your closest airport

Pinside fight club! Oh yeah, it’s on!

#655 3 months ago
Quoted from Pinchild:

Man all of you complain so much it insane.
Just enjoy the hobby and stop ruining/ scaring the Newbies.
It's really not that big of a deal.
Man I've been through like 100 pins over the years and here and there they have issues.
Good God what a bunch of babies.
P.S. yes I buy NIB too.

Say that when you go to sell your Willy Wonka or Jurassic Park Pro.

If you think this won’t affect the resale value, you are delusional.

#656 3 months ago
Quoted from Coindork:

Say that when you go to sell your Willy Wonka or Jurassic Park Pro.
If you think this won’t affect the resale value, you are delusional.

No sir I believe both manufacturer will take care of me as they have in the past.
I trust Stern and JJP

Both proven worth

#657 3 months ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Just hope it doesn't worsen "out of the warranty period"

Awesome if true and exactly what you expect to be done. Kudos to Stern.

I can't even seen any obvious dimpling on my ARFr - PF looks great

“Shutting down the system is the only way wipe out everything Shitty Clear did”

#658 3 months ago
Quoted from Pinchild:

No sir I believe both manufacturer will take care of me as they have in the past.
I trust Stern and JJP
Both proven worth

That remains to be seen.
If in fact that happens then yes, you will be fine.
At this point in time it is an unknown.

#659 3 months ago
Quoted from Pinchild:

No sir I believe both manufacturer will take care of me as they have in the past.
I trust Stern and JJP
Both proven worth

the good news is theres folks like u that are willing to roll the dice....

#660 3 months ago

Interestingly, there seem to be no issues mentioned in the shooter lane.

So the clear is adhering to bare wood ok. The balls getting kicked out repeatedly has not caused the clear to get 'pushed' or ''bunched up' to one side. There has been no mention of cracking or pooling or whatever you want to call it. It *appears* to be either artwork related- the art adhering to the wood, or the clear and artwork reacting to each other.

#661 3 months ago
Quoted from Wmsfan:

Interestingly, there seem to be no issues mentioned in the shooter lane.
So the clear is adhering to bare wood ok. The balls getting kicked out repeatedly has not caused the clear to get 'pushed' or ''bunched up' to one side. There has been no mention of cracking or pooling or whatever you want to call it. It *appears* to be either artwork related- the art adhering to the wood, or the clear and artwork reacting to each other.

Good point about the shooter lane and this only happening where there is art.
I showed this thread to my brother in law and we were discussing it.
His exact quote was "cheap wood, the arts not adhering and it also explains why you get so much dimpling".

#662 3 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

Top men are working on it.

Day and night...... Lol

#663 3 months ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Day and night...... Lol

Thing 1 and Thing 2.

17
#664 3 months ago

Given the past history of how these mfgs protect their income, expect some high profile people to come in and tell everyone that pooling is normal and there has always been pooling. And back in the 80s everything pooled but if you play 10,000 games the pooling is not noticeable and the clear will flow back under the posts. Then they will berate anyone who questions why their nib has issues and all the minions will jump in and agree and wash out any comments that say otherwise.

#665 3 months ago

Digital printing can be the problem.
They use different inks instead of silkscreening.
i had a new full throttle, digital printed playfield and it chips the playfield at the right ramp intrance near the spinning disk.
Digital printed playfields have more problems with chiping problems.
And water base clears are less durable.
The 2 problems combined makes the quality even less durable i think. thats my opinion.

#666 3 months ago

Stern still silkscreens correct? I saw a tour walkthrough on YouTube with George Gomez that may be a couple years old and they were doing only silk-screening at the time

#667 3 months ago
Quoted from Wmsfan:

Interestingly, there seem to be no issues mentioned in the shooter lane.
So the clear is adhering to bare wood ok. The balls getting kicked out repeatedly has not caused the clear to get 'pushed' or ''bunched up' to one side. There has been no mention of cracking or pooling or whatever you want to call it. It *appears* to be either artwork related- the art adhering to the wood, or the clear and artwork reacting to each other.

Or the difference between constant squeezing vs impact.

The clear has shown itself to be soft. that means impacts will be absorbed better.. and if the clear is more elastic, it will return to its shape. Where as a post is constantly squeezing and pushing the material.

#668 3 months ago

I think its the art not adhering.

In the chipping pictures you see bare wood, if it were just the clear chipping off you would still see artwork...
The clear is stuck to the art but the art isn't stuck to the wood so they both ripple and chip together.

#669 3 months ago

I think maybe when buying NIB these days do a fingernail test on the playfield before ever playing a game.

#670 3 months ago
Quoted from JohnnyPinball007:

I think maybe when buying NIB these days do a fingernail test on the playfield before ever playing a game.

Kinda hard ro do that to a game thats inside of a thick cardboard box.

#671 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Kinda hard ro do that to a game thats inside of a thick cardboard box.

Yeah take it out of the box, take the glass off, and test it with a fingernail somewhere hidden. If it is soft contact the manufacturer and ask for advice about how long for it to sit, and any other advice. Sucks but what else can you do if you want NIB?

#672 3 months ago
Quoted from JohnnyPinball007:

Yeah take it out of the box, take the glass off, and test it with a fingernail somewhere hidden. If it is soft contact the manufacturer and ask for advice about how long for it to sit, and any other advice. Sucks but what else can you do if you want NIB?

From what i am understanding if your game has soft clearcoat it will never harden. Also all of the posts that are tightened down into the playfyare going to have pooling anyways and then possibly chip so i don't think theres much that can be done. If you want a NIB right now it would be smart to just wait until these problems get sorted out. I am definitely NOT a buyer right now.

#673 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

From what i am understanding if your game has soft clearcoat it will never harden.

Yeah, if the composition of the mix is off, you can wait the rest of your life and nothing will change.

#674 3 months ago
Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

The chipping will occur fairly fast if it's going to happen... but it should not progress. If the neoprene washers are in there they will absorb the vibrations and prevent future wear.
Wish it had never happened... glad we solved it and appreciate the patience while we did our best to make it right.

Spooky to Stern: I will tell/show you how to make a playfield the right way if you sign back over the "GODZILLA" rights you back doored me on from TOHO.

#675 3 months ago

I went to a local arcade in Atlantic City NJ on the boardwalk yesterday. Had a Star Wars Pro and Munsters Pro. Star Wars was flawless however Munsters had the bubbling/pooling under a lot of posts. It's a shame. I'm holding off on NIB.

#676 3 months ago
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#677 3 months ago
Quoted from JohnnyPinball007:

Sucks but what else can you do if you want NIB?

Wait until they don’t f up the clear on play fields is a good start.

#678 3 months ago
Quoted from Moli410:

I went to a local arcade in Atlantic City NJ on the boardwalk yesterday. Had a Star Wars Pro and Munsters Pro. Star Wars was flawless however Munsters had the bubbling/pooling under a lot of posts. It's a shame. I'm holding off on NIB.

My daughter and I were at a Pinball Arcade this afternoon here on the SC Coast. The proprietor had a SW Pro, Munsters Pro, and Ghostbusters Pro. All looked immaculate with THOUSANDS of games played on each.

#679 3 months ago
Quoted from MurphyPeoples:

My daughter and I were at a Pinball Arcade this afternoon here on the SC Coast. The proprietor had a SW Pro, Munsters Pro, and Ghostbusters Pro. All looked immaculate with THOUSANDS of games played on each.

Myrtle Beach?

#680 3 months ago

For those using neoprene washers what size fit the smaller posts in the playfield?

#681 3 months ago
Quoted from Moli410:

Myrtle Beach?

Yes

#682 3 months ago
Quoted from Moli410:

Myrtle Beach?

Yes. Excellent fun place. : )

Thanks Brother! Good to see you today!

#683 3 months ago
Quoted from MurphyPeoples:

Yes. Excellent fun place. : )

Thanks Brother! Good to see you today!

You too, wish I could have stayed but I had a full plate today.
PM me some pics once the glass is installed.

#684 3 months ago
Quoted from JohnnyPinball007:

Yeah take it out of the box, take the glass off, and test it with a fingernail somewhere hidden. If it is soft contact the manufacturer and ask for advice about how long for it to sit, and any other advice. Sucks but what else can you do if you want NIB?

Don’t be a putz and buy NIB until this issue has been rectified.

#685 3 months ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Thank you for your response. I disagree on several points. Cost cutting and more profit are not things that happen once in a while. They are an everyday part of doing business. They are neither bad or unusual, all successful companies do both of them routinely.
I think what you mean is this quality issue can be directly attributed to a specific decision to lower quality to save money. I don't think anyone has a good reason to believe that. If you have evidence, please present it.

Ask operators like ltg if things overall are inferior.

Not necessarily. They may be working with a vendor that provides playfields or clearcoat services. Those vendors may have a common supplier that made changes to THEIR formula, unannounced. One possibility why you're seeing issues with multiple manufacturers.
It's absurd to think both JJP and Stern decided to cut costs and purposefully lower quality on playfields. Beyond ridiculous. No businessperson would make such a change without thorough testing. To suggest multiple manufacturers did so, on purpose, to save tens of dollars on a playfield defies logic. More likely there is a new process that was a lot faster but has unforeseen issues.

The above is just rhetoric. This is a quality issue (probably multiple issues with different causes) with ZERO evidence to suggest it's a purposeful move done to save money at the expense of quality. You're trying to whip yourself into an emotional frenzy. You're not a mob. Put away the pitchforks and the hangman's noose. There will be no lynching here today.

So you are saying all these quality issues we are seeing on modern games including clearcoat are a result of bad luck in new processes and not a direct result of cost cutting? Cheaper wood, cheaper metals, cheaper plastics. These are things we know are inferior to past machines and they are because of cost cutting. Maybe the clearcoat issue was bad luck but they knew about it and did nothing. You can only lower quality so far until you reach a breaking point with customers. You are witnessing that now. I am looking at manufacturers other than JJP and STERN because of their dropping quality. Cost cutting leading to obvious lower quality is why I am looking elsewhere. It is possible you are too close to this to be objective.....or good at lying to yourself. Either way you are not talking me and others out of our positions. They are logical reasonable positions. Truth is some like you just don’t want to hear it.

#686 3 months ago

I took these pics about 2 hours ago.
The jp has been on location for two days and was unboxed there.
So either the washers were put on at the location at unboxing or came from the factory.

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#687 3 months ago
Quoted from mrgone:

So either the washers were put on at the location at unboxing or came from the factory.

Washers have been put on the factory for awhile

#688 3 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Don’t be a putz and buy NIB until this issue has been rectified.

I had already purchased a NIB JJP POTCSE before I heard about any problems. After I heard about the problems I checked mine closely and did the fingernail test and all was fine.

But yeah, I guess I got lucky, and I have no plans to buy anything for a long time.

I was mainly trying to say I think the fingernail test is a great way to tell if there are problems.

12
#689 3 months ago

Collectors are a fickle bunch. Push your luck too much and you can lose a lot of them and fast. Also high quality is important to a lot of collectors. They like lots of things built with high quality and have a good eye for quality. The notion that you had to be an operator of pins in the 90s to understand the quality of the machines today is quite silly to me. People who know quality can easily see where something has been downgraded over time. If and it’s a big if another pin company comes along with a higher quality product a percentage of collectors will go there. That’s in some collectors nature. If some of these companies don’t mind losing people that’s fine. But they better hope the percentage isn’t too high or it will really effect their bottom line and kill all that profit gained by cost cutting. Good luck to Stern and JJP but I am out until they bring their quality back up.

#690 3 months ago

Just looked at my IMDN Pro built 10-9-18 and I have had it since 11-2-18. Play the crap out of it and only saw very little pooling at the top post of the drop targets. Everything else looks good. Just for reference.

#691 3 months ago
Quoted from mrgone:

I took these pics about 2 hours ago.
The jp has been on location for two days and was unboxed there.
So either the washers were put on at the location at unboxing or came from the factory.[quoted image][quoted image]

yes, this was previously noted that this is being done by stern on JP...

#692 3 months ago

Not sure if this has been bought up in previous posts,
this older stern with the recessed T -nut with the machine screw coming up from underneath,
seemed like a great idea at the time

IMG_4077 (resized).JPG
#693 3 months ago
Quoted from JohnnyPinball007:

I had already purchased a NIB JJP POTCSE before I heard about any problems. After I heard about the problems I checked mine closely and did the fingernail test and all was fine.
But yeah, I guess I got lucky, and I have no plans to buy anything for a long time.
I was mainly trying to say I think the fingernail test is a great way to tell if there are problems.

Sorry, I’m sure you’re right.

I just found out that my Munsters LE has the pooling/rippling and I’m not happy. We also inspected my Munsters Premium, IMLE and BKSOR LE and they were fine.

#694 3 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

So you are saying all these quality issues we are seeing on modern games including clearcoat are a result of bad luck in new processes and not a direct result of cost cutting?

I'm saying you don't know why they are happening. Pinball has hundreds of different processes involved. Playfields alone have several- sourcing the wood, preparing the wood, applying art, clearcoating, assembling. There are probably others.

Quoted from Extraballz:

Cheaper wood, cheaper metals, cheaper plastics. These are things we know are inferior to past machines and they are because of cost cutting.

No we don't know these are inferior or cheaper. If you have evidence to support that, please present it. When a claim is made without evidence it should be dismissed without evidence.

Quoted from Extraballz:

Maybe the clearcoat issue was bad luck...

Maybe. The point is, we don't know.

Quoted from Extraballz:

...but they knew about it and did nothing.

Please present your evidence to support this accusation.

Quoted from Extraballz:

Cost cutting leading to obvious lower quality is why I am looking elsewhere.

You are using a logical fallacy. It's called an argument from ignorance. You don't know the cause of the current playfield clearcoat issue(s) but you're assuming that you do and making a (correct IMO) judgement call to not purchase until the issue(s) are fixed. Your reasoning is flawed (cost cutting caused this) but your conclusion (don't buy right now) is correct.

Quoted from Extraballz:

It is possible you are too close to this to be objective.....or good at lying to yourself.

A lifetime of experience in manufacturing gives me some insight but I'm only making reasonable guesses. Ian from The Poorman's Pinball podcast had some comments relevant to the clearcoating process on a recent episode.

Quoted from Extraballz:

Either way you are not talking me and others out of our positions. They are logical reasonable positions. Truth is some like you just don’t want to hear it.

You're nearly alone with your irrational beliefs. Most people are concerned but not jumping to conclusions and making claims without evidence. If you have evidence to support your position please share it.

#695 3 months ago

Posted on another thread. Never seen pooling of clear on my production of playfields. Varethane interior water based gloss. To seal the wood for old restorations & new playfields. 2 spray coats. Maybe Mirco or others having problems with ink adhesion maybe doing one? I know the hard maple veneer plywood is dry! Maybe some are getting super fast plywood fresh from the mill. I have not pounded on my playfields with a fist or a hammer, compared to both on tempered playfield glass. Over the years my printers have used old printers, not the newest stuff. But the ink is constantly changing over the years. The old OCE Arizona Canon flatbed uv printer is 10 years old, & does my glass & playfields. Over the years OMNI was the favorite auto clear, along with others. The early restorations were ruined a few times by aggressive clear coats reacting with black ink. Either the body shop was using something that flashed quickly, or applied second coat too fast to off gas the first.
So far I have never had ink adhesion failure in 130+ playfields done. I clearly state over the years what I do & use.

15
#696 3 months ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

...Please present your evidence to support this accusation....

Re: the manufacturer/s knowing they have playfield issues.

I think the washers under the posts from the factory, where none were before, is a pretty good indication that the manufacturer knew something wasn’t quite right and tried to apply a bandaid rather than halt production and fix the real problem.

#697 3 months ago
Quoted from Supersquid:

Just looked at my IMDN Pro built 10-9-18 and I have had it since 11-2-18. Play the crap out of it and only saw very little pooling at the top post of the drop targets. Everything else looks good. Just for reference.

After reading through this post I just inspected my Iron Miaden pro built around the same time as yours and the only clear coat issue is near top narrow post above the drops. There is small sliver half moon shape of clear coat separation. The ink is not attached to the clear coat that pulled up. Interesting that it is in the same place as yours. That post gets whacked by the ball there, but I don't think its much worse than other areas. Its mostly hidden unless you lean forward and look for. Hopefully it does not get worse. There is quite a bit of dimpling too on this playfield.

I don't know if they used two different manufacturers or different printing equipment for playfields during Maiden, but some look different than mine. I played one that felt like the colors where shifted more towards red end than mine looks.
20190901_020650 (resized).jpg

#698 3 months ago
Quoted from mrgone:

I took these pics about 2 hours ago.
The jp has been on location for two days and was unboxed there.
So either the washers were put on at the location at unboxing or came from the factory.[quoted image][quoted image]

Tiny bit of pooling even with the washers.

People are loving JP2 but I have got my patience hat on and will wait for as long as it takes for Stern to remedy this.

#699 3 months ago

What the odds that this becomes the new normal?

Better than chipping and pooling for sure.

a17a1c3114a0200727db386972f148ffeb419ec8.jpeg (resized).jpg
#700 3 months ago
Quoted from Pinchild:

No sir I believe both manufacturer will take care of me as they have in the past.
I trust Stern and JJP
Both proven worth

Yep. They will take care of ya real good.

And yes, they’ve proven their worth...in spades.

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