(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern

By f3honda4me

4 years ago


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There are 9,207 posts in this topic. You are on page 139 of 185.
#6901 3 years ago
Quoted from shaub:

wow, was it really that quick. Thats crazy!

I sold a perfectly red Safecracker to a friend many years ago and he put it near a window in his bedroom (after I left). I came back two weeks and in horror found the game needing a new decal on that side. Granted it was literally two feet from a single pane window with no UV block, but still...

#6902 3 years ago

Can someone tell me who’s producing the playfields for api?

#6903 3 years ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Didn’t come off as being totally honest.

Yes he did. As someone who feels exactly the same way, some people just don’t care about this stuff as much as other. I’m FULLY aware of all these issues and have zero issues buying NIB. I’m willing to take the risk.

#6904 3 years ago
Quoted from sirlonzelot:

Can someone tell me who’s producing the playfields for api?

Good question. From what I can tell, their playfields are perfect and always have been.

#6905 3 years ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Bravo Nick from Buffalo pinball. You were honest and told the truth. Sorry but weak sauce from Kevin. Didn’t come off as being totally honest.

I obviously know Kev very well and he was saying exactly what he believes.

I'll ask Kev if he wants to weigh in, but let me play out his argument a bit. I think Kev was saying, "Out of site, out of mind". In other words, if he can't notice any damage, it's no issue to him. He did say that extensive chipping damage, like on early WOZ, that that would bother him and be unacceptable.

I'm more, "Out of site, still in mind, still unacceptable". But let me play that out more. My damage on Deadpool sucks, but isn't THAT noticeable, at least NOW. I see pooling and minor chipping/cracking as potential for much more damage down the road. That once it starts, there's a good chance that it will get worse, possibly to the point that Kev mentions on WOZ. So to me, Kev should be bothered by this, because it has the potential to be really bad.

Maybe I can get him to jump in and discuss this further...

#6906 3 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Good question. From what I can tell, their playfields are perfect and always have been.

My Hot Wheels has some ribbing. It’s not bad but it’s definitely not perfect. I think Spooky’s R&M playfields are the best I’ve seen lately. Only a handful of dimples but the are really shallow and hard to see.

#6907 3 years ago
Quoted from sirlonzelot:

Can someone tell me who’s producing the playfields for api?

Walter, mine was a "bader" on the OF (but i dont know if all are from that manufacturer !?)
and it was just very nice, only minor dimpling

#6908 3 years ago

I'm not an engineer, but made this in 5 minutes in photoshop..why can't they develop a flange that sits under the playfield, secured from below and the post is actually part of the flange that goes through the post hole with a threaded center to screw down the plastics to (They could even polish or coat it to look pretty). It doesn't seem like rocket science and you'd never have a sling post (or anything that takes a pounding) ever touch the surface of the playfield again.

flange.jpgflange.jpg

#6909 3 years ago

I had a Houdini here on loan and it was the nicest factory playfield that I have seen on any pin. The playfield was made by Mirco (99% sure). The playfield was smooth as glass, just the right amount of clear, only very shallow dimpling after many plays and no pooling or issues around posts. I pulled a lot of things apart to install a full set of Cliffys and plastic protectors, so I saw underneath a lot of posts. I'm guessing this was made before the new water based clear coats.

#6910 3 years ago
Quoted from fooflighter:

I'm not an engineer, but made this in 5 minutes in photoshop..why can't they develop a flange that sits under the playfield, secured from below and the post is actually part of the flange that goes through the post hole with a threaded center to screw down the plastics to (They could even polish or coat it to look pretty). It doesn't seem like rocket science and you'd never have a sling post (or anything that takes a pounding) ever touch the surface of the playfield again.
[quoted image]

Biggest problem with this design... space.

If you made every post a big 1" square... you'd have all kinds of conflicts of mounting spots on the bottom of the PF.

#6911 3 years ago
Quoted from fooflighter:

I'm not an engineer, but made this in 5 minutes in photoshop..why can't they develop a flange that sits under the playfield, secured from below and the post is actually part of the flange that goes through the post hole with a threaded center to screw down the plastics to (They could even polish or coat it to look pretty). It doesn't seem like rocket science and you'd never have a sling post (or anything that takes a pounding) ever touch the surface of the playfield again.
[quoted image]

We may be talking about something similar but I like the idea of t-nuts being installed on top of the playfield for all posts where the post then applies pressure to the metal on the t-nut versus any wood / art. That seems like it would solve the issue.

#6912 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Biggest problem with this design... space.
If you made every post a big 1" square... you'd have all kinds of conflicts of mounting spots on the bottom of the PF.

Multiple posts could use same bracket maybe?

#6913 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Biggest problem with this design... space.
If you made every post a big 1" square... you'd have all kinds of conflicts of mounting spots on the bottom of the PF.

Maybe for games currently produced, but factor that design into the process going forward and build around it. Stern removed and redesigned the playfield art. I don't know the clearance of the JJP GnR but just looking under my Stern JP, there would be room (see below)..just incorporate the room going forward and problem solved. Plus it doesn't have to be a square, could be circular, just big enough to hold the flange, could even secure the flange with tap in Tposts below similar to a shaker motor mount...just spitballing....but it seems like a washer is treating the symptoms and not the issue.. I'm just a player and owner, I don't care how they do it, but obviously any contact from posts on todays's clear is a bad combination...That is unless we aren't seeing the new Mirco playfileds yet and these are all old stock/early run/prototype pics having the damage.
20201024_115044 (resized).jpg20201024_115044 (resized).jpg

#6914 3 years ago

...

11
#6915 3 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Yes he did. As someone who feels exactly the same way, some people just don’t care about this stuff as much as other. I’m FULLY aware of all these issues and have zero issues buying NIB. I’m willing to take the risk.

You feel exactly the same way? You feel putting washers down to hide the problem with the clear is a real solution? It is not. Other chipping could easily happen away from the posts eventually. Kevin seems like a real nice guy but that’s not the point. Seemed he was stuck in the middle of telling the obvious truth and trying to cover for the manufacturers. He talked mostly about what was good for the manufacturers. There is enough profit margin to fix the clear issue. Sticking up for the manufacturers only hurts the consumer in this case. It needs to stop IMO.

#6916 3 years ago
Quoted from russdx:

Multiple posts could use same bracket maybe?

Great idea, make it one assembly part, even more rigidity and strength

#6917 3 years ago
Quoted from PinB:

Here are pictures from the GNR on location at Helicon Brewing in Pittsburgh.
There is pooling/bubbling evident on at least half a dozen of the posts (see pics), but I didn't see any chipping yet.
Please note that this particular machine was one of the first to go on location immediately after launch & has been played A LOT.

No wonder so many want to spend $12,500 and get the CE model, if this is what you get when you don't want to spend that much.

#6918 3 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

We may be talking about something similar but I like the idea of t-nuts being installed on top of the playfield for all posts where the post then applies pressure to the metal on the t-nut versus any wood / art. That seems like it would solve the issue.

Agree, that’s how stern used to do it.

#6919 3 years ago
Quoted from tilted81:

Like stern used to.

Yep, it could be a tap in from the top too, I just though my idea secured it more instead of the inner playfield hole taking a pounding and stretching out over time

#6920 3 years ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

You feel exactly the same way? You feel putting washers down to hide the problem with the clear is a real solution?

It is *a* solution. Another solution is to simply ignore the slight imperfections and play the game.

I know the Frisco dude is pretty new around here.. how many of the complainers were around when WMS was cranking out TOTAN, CV and NGG playfields that had clear separating from the inserts? Playfield issues have always been around.

#6921 3 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

You are correct that was simply shown as a joke. Though no playfield has ever been perfect example Cliffy has 10,000 different protectors so there is clearly a wear issue in most games.

i put cliffys on all my new pins only for the next owners because they will probably never wear down in MY HUO environment. its overkill sometimes.

#6922 3 years ago

Out of sight, out of mind mod coming as a response to pf issues.
.99 cents, one eye, 1.99 covers both.
Limited to 500.

C25A27E6-A6CD-4389-AE19-5360EF3CDEC0 (resized).jpegC25A27E6-A6CD-4389-AE19-5360EF3CDEC0 (resized).jpegE61EB1FF-0D84-40CA-A484-FEE9BAD1155B (resized).jpegE61EB1FF-0D84-40CA-A484-FEE9BAD1155B (resized).jpeg

10
#6923 3 years ago

here is the problem with those that say “no big deal play the game and enjoy it” those are the same people that will want 1000 discount on a game with pooling. so yes i want a perfect NIB game cause when i go to resell it i get a decent amount of money back for the next NIB.

#6924 3 years ago
Quoted from Palmer:

My Hot Wheels has some ribbing. It’s not bad but it’s definitely not perfect. I think Spooky’s R&M playfields are the best I’ve seen lately. Only a handful of dimples but the are really shallow and hard to see.

I meant perfect in regards to the clearcoat they use and having never had issues with pooling or chipping. Ribbing will always be there unfortunately. So will dimples.

#6925 3 years ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

You feel exactly the same way? You feel putting washers down to hide the problem with the clear is a real solution? It is not.

I’m saying these issues don’t bother me as much as others. Same as Kevin. If my game comes with washers and my game stays nice until I sell it, I couldn’t care less.

#6926 3 years ago
Quoted from russdx:

Multiple posts could use same bracket maybe?

So instead of custom lightboards all over... now we have large custom one piece brackets covering large areas of the PF? ?

#6927 3 years ago
Quoted from fooflighter:

Maybe for games currently produced, but factor that design into the process going forward and build around it

Actually fitting the mechs around each other is one of the most difficult portions of PF design... and what every pro laughs at when people armchair design Playfields from just the top. "why don't you just move that over...". They know each change can have a cascade of effects underneath.

Quoted from fooflighter:

I don't know the clearance of the JJP GnR but just looking under my Stern JP, there would be room (see below)..just incorporate the room going forward and problem solved

So you did it for one post... now how about all the others?

It's a novel idea - just saying it's not a magic bullet. It complicates one of the more constrained portions of mechanical design in the games.

#6928 3 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

I meant perfect in regards to the clearcoat they use and having never had issues with pooling or chipping. Ribbing will always be there unfortunately. So will dimples.

So are they Mircos or not ?

#6929 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Actually fitting the mechs around each other is one of the most difficult portions of PF design... and what every pro laughs at when people armchair design Playfields from just the top. "why don't you just move that over...". They know each change can have a cascade of effects underneath.

So you did it for one post... now how about all the others?
It's a novel idea - just saying it's not a magic bullet. It complicates one of the more constrained portions of mechanical design in the games.

Very true, it is a mechanical bandaid, albeit better than a washer if it could be made...I dunno, it's just frustrating as I'm sure it is for the designers and builders...I'll live with the washer if thats the best they can do, or hope that that in combination of the new formula from Mirco does the trick...A nice official statement would help the speculation too...it's obvious they are now aware of it. Unfortunately, I'm guessing those 100-200 machines already made have older fields and that is a lot of $$$ for repair costs going forward for replacements, so they're probably choosing to handle the fallout on a case by case basis for those owners..on locations probably don't care, early home adopters may get a playfield with the new formula if they are affected...but it would be nice to have something stating the timelines of the new playfield Mirco formula going forward to get ahead of this in the PR/Panic department for those of us waiting on shipping dates

#6930 3 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

that doesn't bode well for GNR

sometimes I wish I was wrong.

#6931 3 years ago

I don’t think the ribbing “has to always be there”. That wood should have been rejected before anything.

The light does have to reflect at the perfect angle to see it in most cases.

#6932 3 years ago
Quoted from fooflighter:

Very true, it is a mechanical bandaid, albeit better than a washer if it could be made...I dunno, it's just frustrating as I'm sure it is for the designers and builders...I'll live with the washer if thats the best they can do, or hope that that in combination of the new formula from Mirco does the trick...A nice official statement would help the speculation too...it's obvious they are now aware of it. Unfortunately, I'm guessing those 100-200 machines already made have older fields and that is a lot of $$$ for repair costs going forward for replacements, so they're probably choosing to handle the fallout on a case by case basis for those owners..on locations probably don't care, early home adopters may get a playfield with the new formula if they are affected...but it would be nice to have something stating the timelines of the new playfield Mirco formula going forward to get ahead of this in the PR/Panic department for those of us waiting on shipping dates

What would be nice is if JJP actually made an official statement about the problem or lack thereof. Otherwise were stuck with people like us theorizing about what the issue is. I'll never understand why these pinball companies are so secretive and quiet about on going issues and release of future games....just look at xbox, play station who are releasing new platforms yet both announced months before their released. Does it work for them...u bet it does...

#6933 3 years ago
Quoted from kermit24:

I don’t think the ribbing “has to always be there”. That wood should have been rejected before anything.

unnamed (resized).jpgunnamed (resized).jpg
#6934 3 years ago
Quoted from kermit24:

I don’t think the ribbing “has to always be there”. That wood should have been rejected before anything.
The light does have to reflect at the perfect angle to see it in most cases.

I don't think the "ribbing" effect is actually related to the wood at all, I think it's just a sign that the clear is setting up before it has a chance to self-level after being sprayed. I've seen enough new Stern playfields with obvious ribbing or less obvious but similar artifacts that I'm convinced they use an automated sprayer that lays down clear in thin vertical lines down the PF, probably gobs of it in one pass for "efficiency", which often sets up too soon for it to level out and be perfectly smooth. Probably also explains the clear-coat chipping issues, too much clear being applied at once for proper adhesion to the wood.

In any case, ours is not to "solve" the problem, it's to demand that it be solved!

#6935 3 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

What would be nice is if JJP actually made an official statement about the problem or lack thereof. Otherwise were stuck with people like us theorizing about what the issue is. I'll never understand why these pinball companies are so secretive and quiet about on going issues and release of future games....just look at xbox, play station who are releasing new platforms yet both announced months before their released. Does it work for them...u bet it does...

I posted this on another Facebook group but it's appropriate here

It's a balancing act - if JJP blows the whistle and declares those fields defective, then all would be entitled - for lack of a better term, to a manufacture admitted defect which could be $$$...so a case by case solution is probably what they are doing while swapping in the new formulas and using the washers as a temporary bandaid like Stern did on Jurassic Park until they can either stand behind the new Mirco formula or go further and pull the art back from the sling posts...either way they are walking a tightrope between hype/sales/consumer coinfidence/liability...so it sucks for us, but down the road it may be best to wait and hope for the best
..

To your point about the companies, I agree...It's like leftovers from the old Operator only years..but the times and especially Covid has shifted a large protion of the consumption to home collectors versus arcades. To operate like a secret society, good 'ole boys club reeks of a Used Car sales lot and shady practices. If you want to put out a lifestyle/collector brand at these marked up $$$, you need to get on board with what MS and Sony does in the hardware world and stand behind the product and release real Service Alert Bulletins and timelines. A little info goes along way for good faith and trust Back in the day of the Xbox 360 red ring of death...MS recalled all of their products and provided a way to send it back for a fix or a full replacement...Look where MS are today, instead of what could have become a PR nightmare, they are about to unseat Sony from the market share with the new Xbox Series X

and Mylar up

#6936 3 years ago
Quoted from sirlonzelot:

So are they Mircos or not ?

I think Houdinis were, but not sure after that.

#6937 3 years ago
Quoted from fooflighter:

new Spectrum formula

IT'S NOT CALLED SPECTRUM HE WAS DEMOING ON A SPECTRUM PLAYFIELD

#6938 3 years ago

Consumer rights over here in EU/UK...

Interesting - If an item is not as described/ or other examples shown before purchase- entitled to either repair or refund!

FD5C5D06-A5C9-4328-9994-BCDF69DC093E (resized).jpegFD5C5D06-A5C9-4328-9994-BCDF69DC093E (resized).jpeg
#6939 3 years ago

...

#6940 3 years ago
Quoted from fooflighter:

I posted this on another Facebook group but it's appropriate here
It's a balancing act - if JJP blows the whistle and declares those fields defective, then all would be entitled - for lack of a better term, to a manufacture admitted defect which could be $$$...so a case by case solution is probably what they are doing while swapping in the new formulas and using the washers as a temporary bandaid like Stern did on Jurassic Park until they can either stand behind the new Spectrum formula or go further and pull the art back from the sling posts...either way they are walking a tightrope between hype/sales/consumer coinfidence/liability...so it sucks for us, but down the road it may be best to wait and hope for the best
..
To your point about the companies, I agree...It's like leftovers from the old Operator only years..but the times and especially Covid has shifted a large protion of the consumption to home collectors versus arcades. To operate like a secret society, good 'ole boys club reeks of a Used Car sales lot and shady practices. If you want to put out a lifestyle/collector brand at these marked up $$$, you need to get on board with what MS and Sony does in the hardware world and stand behind the product and release real Service Alert Bulletins and timelines. A little info goes along way for good faith and trust Back in the day of the Xbox 360 red ring of death...MS recalled all of their products and provided a way to send it back for a fix or a full replacement...Look where MS are today, instead of what could have become a PR nightmare, they are about to unseat Sony from the market share with the new Xbox Series X
and Mylar up

They act like its a big secret, but its really not....if the play field problem seems like a one off than fine, but if theres dozens of these machines hitting the market with these problems they have a big problem as I imagine many don't want to roll the dice on a $10-13K machine. For myself I have zero interest in that ... I'd rather buy one on the secondary market and save a few bucks. We all know nice used examples will start showing up soon....they always do

#6941 3 years ago

about API :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pighzxfep57xw0j/WP_20200705_13_30_43_Pro.jpg?dl=0

Quoted from RipleYYY:

Walter, mine was a "bader" on the OF (but i dont know if all are from that manufacturer !?)
and it was just very nice, only minor dimpling

#6942 3 years ago
#6943 3 years ago

For this sent to me in a local app group. Don’t know where it comes from but clearly shows a GnR

5A2BDD1D-2253-420E-B215-B2EABAF56559 (resized).jpeg5A2BDD1D-2253-420E-B215-B2EABAF56559 (resized).jpeg
#6944 3 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

For this sent to me in a local app group. Don’t know where it comes from but clearly shows a GnR
[quoted image]

Yes, this photo of this game has been posted a dozen or more times. Thanks.

#6945 3 years ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Thats Badar and I think Spooky uses them also.

Yes, my R&M playfield is clearly and proudly marked Bader, and so far the quality blows this lessor garbage we see posted here day after day away.

It's like the stars perfectly aligned, not just the perfect theme and execution, but also the quality on this one.

#6946 3 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Yes, my R&M playfield is clearly and proudly marked Bader, and so far the quality blows this lessor garbage we see posted here day after day away.
It's like the stars perfectly aligned, not just the perfect theme and execution, but also the quality on this one.

Too bad its on that game

#6947 3 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Too bad its on that game

Well, unfortunately, the pinball industry as a whole has been less than impressive with the themes, and so easy a child could do it blindfolded gameplay they put on their games now to the point where this is the only recent one I care to own. Or, fortunately, as the case may be.

#6948 3 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Yes, my R&M playfield is clearly and proudly marked Bader, and so far the quality blows this lessor garbage we see posted here day after day away.
It's like the stars perfectly aligned, not just the perfect theme and execution, but also the quality on this one.

I will agree that the Bader playfield in my RM was the nicest I've seen to date.

#6949 3 years ago
1BF7209F-387F-47E6-90F3-2160487BDA36 (resized).png1BF7209F-387F-47E6-90F3-2160487BDA36 (resized).png
#6950 3 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

For this sent to me in a local app group. Don’t know where it comes from but clearly shows a GnR
[quoted image]

Holy damn....looks like a mouse was trying to chew it's way in.

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