Washers do seem to just push the pooling outward from the posts, making an even bigger problem area. Unfortunatley, the solution isn't this simple.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of it, but somehow removing the artwork from around posts was determined to be a solution... only that didn't work either. There's probably more than one factor involved. It's hard to imagine the switch to digital printing isn't part of it, though.

I had NIB money ready to go, was holding out for GnR possibly, but the wait was too long and didn't feel like playing playfield QC roulette. I got a used Walking Dead for a super price and using the leftover money on new windows for the house.

Well, sometimes it works though. Take POTC for example, almost infamous for playfield pooling.

The first pic is what it looked like when I started getting chipping and I installed gummy washers and wider star posts.
The second pic is from the current owner over a year later and many thousand plays later.

In at least this instance, the soft washers seem to have stopped the spread.

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Two things: first, it did get worse as you can see more chipping around the top hole. Secondly, the angle you're using cannot properly see the issue in the clear. It is pathetic that we have to try to slow this process down at all. :/

It didn't create new pooling outside the posts, nor did the chips continue widening. That's my point.

I'm just saying, if you have an affected game it's worth trying the soft washer approach to hide and at least potentially slow it down.

You shouldn’t have to take apart a new 10k game to slow any issues down, but this will continue.

You can actaully see in those POTC pics that the larger star posts pressed a larger circle into the clear than the original slim posts. Even more crazy if that was with using a gummy washer too. Even if this is sometimes effective, installing washers or larger posts risks making the problem bigger. The playfield shouldn't be so easily deformed.

Is this podcast available anywhere other than twitch?

Apple seems to show the Bro... podcast as being inactive?

I found it in Podcast Addict.

Here are pictures from the GNR on location at Helicon Brewing in Pittsburgh.

There is pooling/bubbling evident on at least half a dozen of the posts (see pics), but I didn't see any chipping yet.

Please note that this particular machine was one of the first to go on location immediately after launch & has been played A LOT.

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I wonder if that game has a playfield from Summer 2019? I'd be interested to see the manufacture date of both the game and the playfield on this one. Seems reminiscent of the problems that occurred last year that have since been mostly remedied.

I don't see how you can claim it is "mostly remedied" when new machines being shipped right now still have the issues. It doesn't matter that the playfield might have been manufactured a while ago - what matters is that if you buy a NIB machine today you are still likely to have the problems.

Sure, MAYBE, if you buy a machine a year from now, you'll get a playfield that is being manufactured "now" and will be better. Of course, we won't really know that until a year from now when those playfields are actually inside the machines.

But I suspect we'll still be having this discussion in another year as well.

Terrible, absolutely terrible. Sure this could be a one off but we are now seeing this issue in several GNR pins. Micro just announced they are making more durable playfields that they call "Spectrum Playfields". However, who knows when Micro implemented the new playfield creation process, that could have been well after that these early build GNR playfields were made.

Either way I'm done buying early build JJP and Stern games. Every single JJP game has been plagued with some type of early quality issue. With WOZ it was the light boards, Hobbit the fix kits and ramp flaps, with Dialed In it was chipping at scoops, Pirates pooling / chipping, and Wonka pooling / chipping. Stern's record isn't much better. Either way these games cost way too much for these types of issues to be occurring. If Stern and JJP want to charge record prices then they need to offer far better quality. Customers expectations in regards to quality and features have gone way up due to the all time record high NIB game prices.

The issue with playfield pooling and chipping is unacceptable and manufactures should be embarrassed that in 2020 they are continuing to sell products with this issue. If Haggis Pinball, a much smaller and new pinball company in Australia, can come up with a new high quality and more durable playfield build process then so can Stern and JJP.

That's the same bullshit we've all seen before. I feel sorry for anyone who buys a new game from JJP right now - what a risk they're taking.

They need to figure this out, and FAST. I really want this company to survive, but if this isn't solved it's not going to end well. They make fun machines. But they are melting before our eyes.

Well that certainly sucks. And the excuse that it has been played a lot is weak. If I bought a new gnr and was waiting for it to come in, I'd be freaking out right now.

Mirco demonstrated that at the virtual Expo on a Spectrum playfield (Bally, 1982). That would be a cool name for the process, but I don't think he mentioned a name for it.

Funny how everyone has their theories and lots of anecdotal data on how one manufacturer or another has fixed this issue. Relative to Stern, the boutique manufacturers like Spooky's entire output are just small batches like a single-barrel scotch. I'm sure there are runs of Sterns and JJP games with no issues too which can also lead to false anecdotal conclusions. Talk is cheap for Mirco or anyone in the industry. This issue has not been solved until we stop seeing this problem on new games period. Hopefully someone comes up with the correct mixture and curing conditions for the new less toxic clears.

To me this obviously sucks, but hopefully will all be worth it because automotive 2-part clears are some of the most poisonous and hazardous chemicals on earth. Any chemical that requires full head to toe covering and a forced air respirator is not for me and I would rather not see it used in large quantities in manufacturing if at all possible.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjxhKeZi8vsAhWjpFkKHYFjAD8QFjAEegQIBBAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paintdocs.com%2Fdocs%2FwebPDF.jsp%3FSITEID%3DAUTOESTORE%26doctype%3DSDS%26lang%3D2%26prodno%3DFH742&usg=AOvVaw08KZIwxdwYS8HQ-jyYIbEy

I think Stern and JJP need to call Haggis !

Not interested in plastic playfields. Been done before. Those wear worse than wood ones. They get all scratched up and dull.

I don't think they give a shit. People keep buying them so who cares I guess?

they don't live in California

Back in the day Bally and Williams experimented with new playfield materials (plastics) and coatings ("Diamond Plate"). They'd send out a small number of games with these changes to operators, get feedback over an extended period (multiple years for Diamond Plate if I recall correctly), and eventually adopt some of these changes, and discard others. Today's manufacturers are just using their entire customer base for alpha testing new processes, rather than using a limited group as was done in the past. I'm sure at some point everyone who has dealt with / is dealing with this fiasco will receive a nice "thank you" note from the manufacturer thanking them for their efforts in eventually working out a solution, along with a $5 discount coupon for some trinket.

That last sentence was sarcasm in case it wasn't obvious.

Thanks for posting these! Saw Kaneda post, and figured they came from this thread.

Just awful that JJP has taken so many orders, and pushed out quality issues like this, again.

What happened between earlier JJP games like the Hobbit, and now? Would truly be nice if they disclosed that information....

Sheesh.

Not sure how often it needs to be stated that the option to simply go back to the clear that was being used a couple of years ago does not exist. There is no choice here. I know there are tons of Stern haters, but it is amazing that people actually think JJP is doing this voluntarily too and cares so little about its customers. This may or may not have been a case where the industry was blindsided by new laws, but I'm sure they would have loved to be able to alpha and beta test new solutions for this very unique application. Maybe JJP and Stern should go back to what Bally and Williams were using on their games while experimenting with Diamondplate: nothing except maybe some mylar.

Haggis 2020.

Interested in knowing as well! The playfield in my Hobbit is the nicest and most durable playfield I've ever seen. I've read similar reports from other owners. Hell I remember seeing one on location and after a ton of plays it still had little to no wear at the VUK holes and shooter lane. Something changed between then and now.

Maybe both Stern and JJP will just include a playfield iron with each purchase. It takes about 2 hours, and the problem is fixed! $49.99 on its own.

Ive seen previously where quality playfields are available for about $50 more than what they are costing now. Not sure why they dont use those.

AIQLE just arrived today and I’ve gotto admit I was a little worried but I have got to hand it to Stern the playfield is perfect................ so far

Well yeah. They all start off perfect looking, just don't play it and you'll be good to go!

Buy one machine to play and one to admire, EZ

Technically it cost $18 and only takes 5 minutes but still sucks that it would need to be done!

I’ve seen some that looked like shit straight out the box. And as much as I agree Stern and JJP need a kick up the ass over their playfield quality when they are bad you still have to acknowledge the good.

Do you own any machines from the 90’s? I am starting to think you may not have the reference material to rate current pin quality. Is that what is going on with you?

I do not. I got into the hobby in 2017 with a Star Wars Pro and went from there.

I prefer the modern machines.

Your responses make more sense now. Imagine for a moment you had actually seen the overall quality of pins go way down over the years. Imagine for a moment actually seeing the value you get from your pins go down over the years. Prices shoot way up at the same time quality takes a nosedive. Imagine for a moment what others with more experience might think of the the current situation with pins.

I get it!

Yeah, Playfields in the 90’s were Bulletproof!

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I wonder how that playfield looked after its first 120 days of use.

You and everyone else knows that was thousands....maybe even 10s of thousands of plays.

Vs. the shit we are seeing after sub-50 plays.

The was like comparing an apple to a tire.

You are correct that was simply shown as a joke. Though no playfield has ever been perfect example Cliffy has 10,000 different protectors so there is clearly a wear issue in most games.

They were also sold primarily for location play. And could actually make enough money to cover at least some of the costs. I'd gladly buy NIB machines that could actually make more money on location than just the depreciation that comes with reselling a machine.

Aside from the play fields what overall quality has gone down? I really can't tell the difference in quality from my JJP pins and my Williams/Bally pins? If anything the experience has clearly improved due to lightning, sound, and graphic display ....

The metals and plastics can be less robust and break easier. In some cases the cabinet is less robust. A lot of flipper assemblies don’t feel as solid to me also. And playfields are not just another component of a pin. They are THE COMPONENT of a pin....Nothing matters more IMO.

Bravo Nick from Buffalo pinball. You were honest and told the truth. Sorry but weak sauce from Kevin. Didn’t come off as being totally honest.

Actually those MB and AFM started blowing out the holes almost immediately and the games were dimpled to shit in no time. I remember an MB in 1999 with a blown out hole and it was basically a year old and the rest of the game looked clean aside from the dimples. It wasn't near as bad as the one above but it was worn past the black line in a significant arc. AFM was especially bad for dimpling because of the air balls. Some games the holes were much worse than others depending on the angle of the scoop and how fast the scoop welds broke in that particular game. A $5 piece of metal would have saved those holes from getting blown out. Kerry protectors and replacement scoops were very popular and I kept my local welding shop busy fixing broken welds and scoops every time I picked up a machine in the early 2000s. And talk to the operators from the 90s about out of box quality or the power driver boards that were born to fail, resets on a poorly designed CPU board and the burned up GI connectors. Maybe the cabinet ink that could literally go from red to white in two weeks of being near a window? How about the opto boards in the ball trough or the high voltage boards that all basically burned up and needed to be repaired or replaced? Yep, those 90s were the days.

wow, was it really that quick. Thats crazy!

I agree, the first step is to find out which part is failing...is it the paint or the clear? So far these guys are just ignoring the problem, or they replace a few bad pfs and get back to business as usual. In any case, I'm starting to lean in your direction, I think it's the digital printing that maybe the underlying issues here. We've had Stern pfs with issues, we've had JJP/Mirco pfs with the same issue, they use different clear formulation so it's logical to assume is the art paint is not adhering to the wood properly regardless of what kind of clear they spray on it.

Good old black sharpie fix lol