(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern

By f3honda4me

4 years ago


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There are 9,207 posts in this topic. You are on page 137 of 185.
#6801 3 years ago

I am lucky enough owning a Potc and Wonka without having issues, But I really sweated buying wonka when I saw all the issues popping up. That's why I am holding off on GNR.
I want to see how this shakes out. You guys at buffalo are friendly with Eric at JJP, Why can't you get him to call in to talk about it??????????

Honesty wins over customers not hiding from the issue.

If I had an issue I know I would at least cannot my state attorney general and make a former consumer complaint against the said company.

15
#6802 3 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Also George Gomez just did a video Called “should you buy a new stern pinball machine” and all he talked about was how great the spike system is. He never once mentioned anything about their playfields. Gee i wonder why? That was a f*cking joke of a video if i ever saw one.

This was a f*cking joke of a post if I ever saw one.

Let me illuminate you on why it didn't discuss playfields. Hint: That wasn't the point of the video.

The title was tongue in cheek in response to an old Youtube video slamming Spike from a disgruntled distributor called "Should you buy a new Stern pinball machine", and the whole point was to discuss the Spike hardware architecture.

I thought the video was great and I hope they do 100 more on various subjects. Community reach out from a manufacturer is always a good thing in my book.

#6803 3 years ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

Notice Jack didn’t take us inside the Clear Coating room..

What’s to see? The issues arise after the art is put on top of the cleared playfield then cleared again. I want to hear from their vendors that do the art and final clear why they aren’t very good at their jobs. Haha

-3
#6804 3 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

I love Stern games and ive been one of their biggest fanboys ever but the fact is their quality has fone downhill big time and they have not treated me right as a customer and im going to call them out on it.

Could your attitude towards them have had anything to do with it?

Every issue I've had with a game, I brought up in private with my distributor and Stern support. I carefully documented the problems, along what I'd done to attempt to solve them and what I expected Stern to do. In every case, Stern met or exceed expectations and resolved the issues. That said, I don't complain about slight finish defects or dimples or other minor things that don't affect gameplay.

Build a good relationship and they'll take care of you.

#6805 3 years ago

Lest we forget...

left-post (resized).jpgleft-post (resized).jpg

right-post (resized).jpgright-post (resized).jpg

Those were the star posts on my Wonka, after 3 months.

And pooling...

20190911_074903 (resized).jpg20190911_074903 (resized).jpg

20190903_175547 (resized).jpg20190903_175547 (resized).jpg

I got really angry, really quick.

You know what the rep from JJP told me?

"Switch to decaf."

I shit you not, those were his words. I won't disclose the employee who said it, but those were his exact words.

Jack offered me an autographed picture. True story.

In the end, I was able to get a blank playfield. For whatever good that did me.

I am NOT made whole, and I am NOT happy. I will never buy a NIB pin again. Ever.

-6
#6806 3 years ago

EDIT: This was intended as a joke, not as a jab.

#6807 3 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Could your attitude towards them have had anything to do with it?

Not at all because been very nice to them and extremely patient with them so the answer to your question is NO. Are you going to suggest that everyone who has been screwed over by these companies is an asshole and that's why they didnt get taken care of?

I doubt that most people call Stern and start raising hell with them right from the get go and just for your information I have never raised hell with them even once, I've been totally respectful and nice about it all. Even if someone wasnt nice about it though that still doesn't mean that it's perfectly ok to screw them out of their money and not stand behind their very expensive product.

As far as my distributor goes, that's a f*cking joke also because they wouldn't get off of their ass and do a damn thing. They are very lucky that I have NOT blasted them all over Pinside. That kind of proves right there that I'm not an asshole. Maybe a dumbass but not an asshole.

-4
#6808 3 years ago
Quoted from paul_8788:

The title was tongue in cheek in response to an old Youtube video slamming Spike from a disgruntled distributor called "Should you buy a new Stern pinball machine", and the whole point was to discuss the Spike hardware architecture.

No shit Sherlock! They made the title to their video tongue and cheek just like I made a response about it tongue and cheek. Duh!

Still the point is they will NEVER EVER do a YouTube video and talk about how great their playfields are, wanna know why? BECAUSE THEY ARENT!

-3
#6809 3 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Are you going to suggest that everyone who has been screwed over by these companies is an asshole and that's why they didnt get taken care of?

Certainly not everyone, but based on some of your postings here I can understand Stern and your distributor firing you as a customer

#6810 3 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Certainly not everyone, but based on some of your postings here I can understand Stern and your distributor firing you as a customer

How do you know this? Sounds like your just trying to stir the pot

#6811 3 years ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Lest we forget...
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
Those were the star posts on my Wonka, after 3 months.
And pooling...
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
I got really angry, really quick.
You know what the rep from JJP told me?
"Switch to decaf."
I shit you not, those were his words. I won't disclose the employee who said it, but those were his exact words.
Jack offered me an autographed picture. True story.
In the end, I was able to get a blank playfield. For whatever good that did me.
I am NOT made whole, and I am NOT happy. I will never buy a NIB pin again. Ever.

Well you probably just have bad attitude and that's why you got screwed. I mean who would be mad over something as minor as those playfield issues that you have on your 12K pinball machine anyway? What's the big deal about a little chipping and pooling on a brand new pinball machine??

This post is for those of you who dont know.

#6812 3 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Certainly not everyone, but based on some of your postings here I can understand Stern and your distributor firing you as a customer

Yeah because small companies want to fire their loyal customers all the time who spend big money with them right? That makes total sense to me!

#6813 3 years ago

I can't speak for Who-Dey, but I'm not sure being fired as a customer would really matter too much, as many of us are no longer NIB buyers anyway. We'll just move our business to the used market.

#6814 3 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

No shit Sherlock! They made the title to their video tongue and cheek just like I made a response about it tongue and cheek. Duh!

Still the point is they will NEVER EVER do a YouTube video and talk about how great their playfields are, wanna know why? BECAUSE THEY ARENT!

Sorry, I apologize. I read your words as if they said what you said, not what you secretly meant in your thoughts.

EDIT: And I hope some day they do a video about playfields and talk about the type of wood used, their screening and clearing processes, who does art and what they have tried to do to solve some of the more common issues. Being a constant dick about everything though will pretty much ensure that never happens.

#6815 3 years ago
Quoted from paul_8788:

Sorry, I apologize. I read your words as if they said what you said, not what you secretly meant in your thoughts.
EDIT: And I hope some day they do a video about playfields and talk about the type of wood used, their screening and clearing processes, who does art and what they have tried to do to solve some of the more common issues. Being a constant dick about everything though will pretty much ensure that never happens.

Its cool and I understand. The only thing I disagree with You on though is people being dicks about it. If nobody expresses their displeasure then they certainly will never change. Ive been one of sterns biggest fanboys on this forum but i can no longer ignore the way that they treat their customers because its just wrong and unethical. I love Stern pinball believe me but I don’t like being treated wrong when i get a defective product. I know they read these forums and if i was a company who gave a shit i would reach out to a guy like me and say hey call me and lets talk about this and see if we can come up with a solution that makes you happy. Thats just me though, what do i know? They need to give their customers some buying confidence bad. Its hard for me to let go of 8 or 10K knowing that if i have a Major problem that I will be ignored.

#6816 3 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Its cool and I understand. The only thing I disagree with You on though is people being dicks about it. If nobody expresses their displeasure then they certainly will never change.

I guess where we disagree is I think there is a way to express displeasure without being a dick. To each their own though.

#6817 3 years ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

Notice Jack didn’t take us inside the Clear Coating room..

That could be because there are playfields from games that are not released yet.

#6818 3 years ago
Quoted from paul_8788:

I guess where we disagree is I think there is a way to express displeasure without being a dick. To each their own though.

Well I guess you could say I'm a little more than frustrated by having 2 bad playfields and no resolution in probably a year and a half now at least? The problem is I havent been a big enough dick because I dont call and pester them all the time. I haven't called them in probably 8 months. I shouldn't have to call them to get a resolution to a defective product. They know about it so the ball is in their court. I have chipping and pooling both on my IMDM premium and pooling on my Munsters Premium.

#6819 3 years ago
Quoted from NickBuffaloPinball:

One thing I want to be clear about, is that I'm not "anti-Stern". I've purchased 6 Sterns for my personal collection and probably 10+ for my business. I get what you're saying though. JJP is a sponsor and we don't hide that fact.
There was a quote I jotted down from the Netflix documentary, "The Social Dilemma": "It's the critics that are the true optimists". I know Stern and JJP can do better on this issue. I want them to do better, because they both have talented teams that are crushing it in terms of making amazing games. And I want to own as many of these games as I can.

That is exactly correct. We are vocal because we care and are passionate about pinball.

I personally know multiple people in my local collector community that have stopped buying NIB Stern's at all in the last 2 years due to playfield issues. These are people capable of buying several NIB games a year - each.

#6820 3 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

I just wonder why they can't catch these issues in production.
Jack Danger just did a whole stern video highlighting their QC - but it's really difficult to believe

I'd imagine it's got more to do with Stern needing to keep the lines running, so when poor quality playfields start appearing in their supply they have no choice but to use at least some of them or they end up with a very large factory full of people standing around.

I'm not defending them, but people under pressure often make poor long-term decisions for immediate results.

This problem has been chronic enough long enough that Stern should have invested in a process that allows enough lead-time to detect and rectify these issues long before they show up on the assembly line and it becomes a "stop the line or keep building games" situation.

#6821 3 years ago

Hey, Gomez said in the comments of the youtube video that Stern agrees that schematics should be available for the node system. Hopefully they release them. Then I'd have no issue with the spike system. As long as the parts aren't treated as throw-away.

#6822 3 years ago

So I guess the one thing we are all forgetting here is, if making these playfields cheaper is only giving a slight uptick in pissed off people, then mathematically it is worth the calculated risk of doing so. They must get plenty of people buying that either don't notice or don't care about playfield issues such as these. So yes, they lose some customers such as us, but the amount they are clearly saving makes it worth it.

....sadly.

#6823 3 years ago
Quoted from Doctor6:

So I guess the one thing we are all forgetting here is, if making these playfields cheaper is only giving a slight uptick in pissed off people, then mathematically it is worth the calculated risk of doing so. They must get plenty of people buying that either don't notice or don't care about playfield issues such as these. So yes, they lose some customers such as us, but the amount they are clearly saving makes it worth it.
....sadly.

The one thing you seem to be forgetting is this is not happening because of making the playfields cheaper. Its happening because of the forced switch to water based clears from the very toxic clears used in the past for environmental and safety regulations. Otherwise they would have switched back two years ago and case closed. Even if you are a Stern basher, there is still JJP having issues with both Wonka and GNR after this issue first came about on POTC. Surely they would have fixed this if it was just a matter of price. What's an extra hundred or two on a $12,500 dollar game after all?

#6824 3 years ago

Really hope those Buffalo guys balance this conversation/topic if they plan to raise it.
I don’t see how that can happen with sponsors but hope for the best.

#6825 3 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

The one thing you seem to be forgetting is this is not happening because of making the playfields cheaper. Its happening because of the forced switch to water based clears from the very toxic clears used in the past for environmental and safety regulations. Otherwise they would have switched back two years ago and case closed. Even if you are a Stern basher, there is still JJP having issues with both Wonka and GNR after this issue first came about on POTC. Surely they would have fixed this if it was just a matter of price. What's an extra hundred or two on a $12,500 dollar game after all?

I've heard this many times on here, but I've never seen any evidence. Does anyone on here work in an industry (auto or something?) where this has happened. I know some finishing oils have been banned in Canada...

#6826 3 years ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

I've heard this many times on here, but I've never seen any evidence. Does anyone on here work in an industry (auto or something?) where this has happened. I know some finishing oils have been banned in Canada...

I personally think its nonsense, it's 2020 I am sure there are plenty of products out there that are safe and meet the required specs. They may not land in the price point pinball is willing to spend. It could be you have to actually be organized and plan proper cure times. They may have to make some change in the process that would cost them short term. The bottom line is people are still buying so they have no incentive to change.

#6827 3 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

As far as my distributor goes, that's a f*cking joke also because they wouldn't get off of their ass and do a damn thing. They are very lucky that I have NOT blasted them all over Pinside. That kind of proves right there that I'm not an asshole. Maybe a dumbass but not an asshole.

You should call them out. 99% of distributors are worthless. I only know of one who has truly gone out of his way to take crap machines back.

#6828 3 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

The one thing you seem to be forgetting is this is not happening because of making the playfields cheaper. Its happening because of the forced switch to water based clears from the very toxic clears used in the past for environmental and safety regulations. Otherwise they would have switched back two years ago and case closed. Even if you are a Stern basher, there is still JJP having issues with both Wonka and GNR after this issue first came about on POTC. Surely they would have fixed this if it was just a matter of price. What's an extra hundred or two on a $12,500 dollar game after all?

Please explain to us all how Spooky got around this forced switch to water based clears? They make great playfields now. If they can make good PF’s so can everyone else. No?

-3
#6829 3 years ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Please explain to us all how Spooky got around this forced switch to water based clears? They make great playfields now. If they can make good PF’s so can everyone else. No?

I honestly don’t think they switched. They just used the old bad stuff and are off the radar because they are so small.

If that is true it’s really an unfair advantage for Spooky.

#6830 3 years ago
Quoted from kermit24:

I honestly don’t think they switched. They just used the old bad stuff and are off the radar because they are so small.

Care to elaborate on how you would know this.....

-4
#6831 3 years ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Care to elaborate on how you would know this.....

I don’t know anything. Just posing a possible theory.
Someone could test the chemical composition of the spooky clear to know for sure.

#6832 3 years ago

Do you guys think HEP or Kruzman uses the latest State of California environmental commission approved clearcoat?

#6833 3 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

The one thing you seem to be forgetting is this is not happening because of making the playfields cheaper. Its happening because of the forced switch to water based clears from the very toxic clears used in the past for environmental and safety regulations. Otherwise they would have switched back two years ago and case closed. Even if you are a Stern basher, there is still JJP having issues with both Wonka and GNR after this issue first came about on POTC. Surely they would have fixed this if it was just a matter of price. What's an extra hundred or two on a $12,500 dollar game after all?

How do other manufacturers do it where they don't pool?

#6834 3 years ago

I was one of the ones who believed they switched to water based clears. After doing some research, it seems the auto repair industry only does the base coats in water based now. There is no effective water based clear coat out there being used at this time. I believe they are either not mixing the stuff right, or using something with an extended pot life, which is not ever getting hard. When you are doing one playfield, you can use the super fast stuff that is dry to the touch in 15-20 minutes. This isn't as advantageous when you are spraying for an entire 8 hour shift. Thats a lot of stopping, swapping and cleaning. Not very efficient.

#6835 3 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

still ..... has to be a better way
Spooky, CGI and AP seem to have figured it out - maybe not perfect, but better than what JJP and Stern are putting out

Depending upon the States Regulations small-quantity generators of hazardous waste do not receive the same scrutiny as the big players.
A measurement of total VOC produced (aerosols and vented liquid supplies) could place them in the small producer category, a great advantage for profits without undue Regulation.
Many times Companies are Grandfathered in until they use remaining supplies of the Haz variety if they have promised to convert over to the water based.
I cannot say with certainty these observations apply to these Companies .

#6836 3 years ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

I've heard this many times on here, but I've never seen any evidence. Does anyone on here work in an industry (auto or something?) where this has happened. I know some finishing oils have been banned in Canada...

That is so much bull it's not even funny.
They make epoxi-floor where people park their cars.

#6837 3 years ago

My contractor is still using OMNI, not water based finish auto clear. He can do it since he is the only one doing it. He worked for years before he retired in a commercial large body shop.
Also I use waterbourne varethane interior gloss to seal my playfields before ink for over 10 years now. Seems no problem with what ever finish auto clear is applied afterwards.

IMG_0014 (resized).JPGIMG_0014 (resized).JPG
#6838 3 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Well I guess you could say I'm a little more than frustrated by having 2 bad playfields and no resolution in probably a year and a half now at least? The problem is I havent been a big enough dick because I dont call and pester them all the time. I haven't called them in probably 8 months. I shouldn't have to call them to get a resolution to a defective product. They know about it so the ball is in their court. I have chipping and pooling both on my IMDM premium and pooling on my Munsters Premium.

Here what your saying bro.
I wrote to Stern also, even just to try and get damage limitation of an unpopulated playfield which I’d be happy to contribute or even pay for. Still haven’t had the decency to respond to my emails.
Both NIBSs - check out my photos....of my IMDN + BM66
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-jjp-gnr-thread/page/29

#6839 3 years ago

As stated earlier, the issue is likely at least partially related to the switch from traditional screen printing to digital printing of the playfield artwork. The art is not adhering to the wood, or working smoothly with the clear.

#6840 3 years ago
Quoted from Sako-TRG:

Here what your saying bro.
I wrote to Stern also, even just to try and get damage limitation of an unpopulated playfield which I’d be happy to contribute or even pay for. Still haven’t had the decency to respond to my emails.
Both NIBSs - check out my photos....of my IMDN + BM66
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-jjp-gnr-thread/page/29

Holy crap the ribbing in those pictures is unbelievable. If anyone deserves populated playfields it is you 100%. That's totally unacceptable.

#6841 3 years ago
Quoted from NickBuffaloPinball:

I'm with you. They are passing on the problem to the consumer, which isn't right.
It seems washers would have solved many of the issues. I'm not sure all of them, but at least some, especially my Deadpool damage.

My JP Pro arrived with big ugly metal washers *already installed* under the slingshot starposts. Still pooled in less than 30 games. Multiple posts all over the playfield, probably about half of them to some degree. The fact that my JP Pro arrived with those crappy metal washers installed and the local arcade's JP Pro didn't tells me they fucking knew about it and decided to sell me a piece of shit anyway. I sold it a week later, cut my losses, and refuse to play the NIB loot crate game again.

I would probably be in the market for a turtles or an avengers if I wasn't scared of getting fucked over again, but for now, money just keeps going into savings.

#6842 3 years ago
Quoted from Betelgeuse:

As stated earlier, the issue is likely at least partially related to the switch from traditional screen printing to digital printing of the playfield artwork. The art is not adhering to the wood, or working smoothly with the clear.

The recent Stern factory tour video shows that clear coat is applied before the artwork. The artwork is not applied directly to the wood.

#6843 3 years ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Please explain to us all how Spooky got around this forced switch to water based clears? They make great playfields now. If they can make good PF’s so can everyone else. No?

They were quick to discover the issue wasn't the clear but the ink around starposts. So they pulled back the artwork. No more ink to come loose - no more problem.
They replaced most tna playfields to keep those customers happy.

Not all their playfields are perfect, my acnc had woodgrain showing when I got it and their reaction was that it probably was a humidity problem (from shipping to europe ?) and it just happens and maybe it would go away.
A year later now and it's still there.. (not easy to photograph but very visible in reality)

20201023_083836 (resized).jpg20201023_083836 (resized).jpg20201023_083948 (resized).jpg20201023_083948 (resized).jpg20201023_084036 (resized).jpg20201023_084036 (resized).jpg
-1
#6844 3 years ago
Quoted from Sako-TRG:

Here what your saying bro.
I wrote to Stern also, even just to try and get damage limitation of an unpopulated playfield which I’d be happy to contribute or even pay for. Still haven’t had the decency to respond to my emails.
Both NIBSs - check out my photos....of my IMDN + BM66
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-jjp-gnr-thread/page/29

Wow! Never seen those pics before, but it’s unbelievable that passed through any form of QC.

Stern playfield lottery for you! My BM66 is flawless like glass, fairly thick clear and almost no dimpling and I’ve been playing the shit out of it the last 6 months!

I’ve brought a AIQ but already planned to buy an unpopulated playfield from pinballlife or Marco if needed.

#6845 3 years ago
Quoted from NickBuffaloPinball:

We're going to be talking about this issue tonight on "Bro, Do You Even Talk Pinball?" podcast, 8pm EDT, twitch.tv/buffalopinball
This has been a long time coming. I was set to talk about it in February when I had an issue with my Deadpool, but waited to see what Stern would do, and also so that they wouldn't retaliate against me for discussing it on our platform. I have 10 years of NIB issues to detail. Seeing this problem continue is incredibly frustrating and my goal is to elevate it to help protect new buyers and maybe, just maybe get them to actually solve the issue, rather than continuing as business as usual.
Expect a healthy dose of cursing.

Great stream last night and You hit the nail right on the head Nick. Im sure that your stream wont actually get Jack and Gary to take care of their customers any better but i bet it at least has them sweating a little bit. Great job for real.

#6846 3 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Great stream last night and You hit the nail right on the head Nick. Im sure that your stream wont actually get Jack and Gary to take care of their customers any better but i bet it at least has them sweating a little bit. Great job for real.

Watched the whole thing. Appreciate the candor. Sucks not being able to buy NIB anymore. Only in pinball can there be issues like this and companies won't do or say a damn thing.

#6847 3 years ago

Go back to printing playfields the old fashioned way this digital crap is a huge factor with these problems.

Sterns big enough to bring that shit in house and JJPs got deep enough pockets to do the same.

#6848 3 years ago

I feel lucky my JP PF is good but not happy seeing new pins having the same issues a year later

Who knows what will happen. Tesla keeps having quality issues month after month and people keep buying their cars and love the company

#6849 3 years ago

Looking to buy a JP pro right now, but I am weighing waiting for a used one or going NIB. The prices are not that far apart between the two right now, and at least with one...you know what you are getting. But of course, when I am ready to buy...none are listed locally.

#6850 3 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Looking to buy a JP pro right now, but I am weighing waiting for a used one or going NIB. The prices are not that far apart between the two right now, and at least with one...you know what you are getting. But of course, when I am ready to buy...none are listed locally.

You can buy my JP premium at a fair price. Free pooling at ball guides for ya. Don’t call me after it chips.

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