(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern

By f3honda4me

4 years ago


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There are 9,207 posts in this topic. You are on page 132 of 185.
#6551 3 years ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

Sorry to hear about your Wonka. You need to read the thread by Yelobird at the link below. His repair method involving the little vinyl repair iron really does work, I tried it myself on a Batman 66. I wish you luck. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/diy-playfield-post-repair-and-chip-proofing-how-to-all-brands

Yep I got directed here and got all the parts coming. Thanks for the link though!

#6552 3 years ago
Quoted from Doctor6:

I mean, that was a rough bunch of words put together, but I agree with the sentiment.
Why the heck did you take it IronMan8Bit ? This and pirates are known to have issues. I'm sorry this happened, but I would have looked at it in person closer before buying.

I had him send me pics of all the posts and it looked like reflections so I was assured there was nothing "that" bad. It's definitely my mistake also, but gotta make the best of it now. I have the fix from Yelobird underway so hopefully I can get those pools smoothed down and new bigger posts with rubber washers on there.

#6553 3 years ago
Quoted from IronMan8Bit:

Any suggestion on how to cover up post pooling? I have a Willy Wonka LE I just bought from someone they assured me there wasn't anything that bad and most of the pics it looked like reflections. Well pretty much every star post has them and all the metal posts too. Can anyone show me what they did to help either stop it from getting worse or hide it?

***was going to link to the repair thread above, but I was late to the party

#6554 3 years ago

Anyone have a link for rubber/metal washers for the generic posts? I think I need about 6 to help cover up.

2 on the slings, 2 right outlanes, and 1 on each side in the side slings.

#6555 3 years ago
Quoted from Doctor6:

I mean, that was a rough bunch of words put together, but I agree with the sentiment.
Why the heck did you take it IronMan8Bit ? This and pirates are known to have issues. I'm sorry this happened, but I would have looked at it in person closer before buying.

as a not english native, didnt want this to sound rough of course...

#6556 3 years ago
Quoted from IronMan8Bit:

I had him send me pics of all the posts and it looked like reflections so I was assured there was nothing "that" bad. It's definitely my mistake also, but gotta make the best of it now. I have the fix from Yelobird underway so hopefully I can get those pools smoothed down and new bigger posts with rubber washers on there.

and good luck with the pin, more important is that you'll enjoy it

#6557 3 years ago

Today was the first time I took delivery of a new Stern machine without ONE issue. I may have gotten lucky or this may be the new norm for Stern. I have been buying NIB Stern machines since 2015 and EVERYONE of them has had issues. Some minor, some major. This time I did not have playfield chipping, split cabinets, pealing decals, non working flippers, cpu boards that were damaged beyond repair or any damage to my machine.

#6558 3 years ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

Today was the first time I took delivery of a new Stern machine without ONE issue

Confirmed. Issues fixed. Close thread.

#6559 3 years ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

Today was the first time I took delivery of a new Stern machine without ONE issue. I may have gotten lucky or this may be the new norm for Stern. I have been buying NIB Stern machines since 2015 and EVERYONE of them has had issues. Some minor, some major. This time I did not have playfield chipping, split cabinets, pealing decals, non working flippers, cpu boards that were damaged beyond repair or any damage to my machine.

Dood, go buy a damn lottery ticket!

#6560 3 years ago

Speaking of playfield defects. Pal of mine unboxed AIQ LE this weekend and found what appears to be a burn mark or a wood defect near the apron in the shooter lane that made it past Stern's QA.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

pasted_image2 (resized).pngpasted_image2 (resized).png

#6561 3 years ago
Quoted from GravitaR:

Speaking of playfield defects. Pal of mine unboxed AIQ LE this weekend and found what appears to be a burn mark or a wood defect near the apron in the shooter lane that made it past Stern's QA.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]

Isn’t that just the next layer of the wood? If smooth to your fingers than it is. The plywood wood is made up of multiple layers.

#6562 3 years ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Isn’t that just the next layer of the wood? If smooth to your fingers than it is. The plywood wood is made up of multiple layers.

Could very well be just that. Will have them take a pic of the underside to see if goes all the way through, has me curious.
The shape of the mark though has me believing it was worker / machine made as it appears to be pretty square edged.

#6563 3 years ago

Looks round to me, with a different wood layered on top.

#6564 3 years ago
Quoted from GravitaR:

Speaking of playfield defects. Pal of mine unboxed AIQ LE this weekend and found what appears to be a burn mark or a wood defect near the apron in the shooter lane that made it past Stern's QA.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]

No idea what that is but no way that playfield should have gone in an LE.

#6565 3 years ago

It looks like a tool burn to me.

#6566 3 years ago
Quoted from Darscot:

No idea what that is but no way that playfield should have gone in an LE.

Why not? That does not bother me at all. That is just some different wood in the ply, nothing to worry about at all.

#6567 3 years ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

Why not? That does not bother me at all. That is just some different wood in the ply, nothing to worry about at all.

Correct. That should not count as a playfield defect

#6568 3 years ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

Why not? That does not bother me at all. That is just some different wood in the ply, nothing to worry about at all.

I'm not saying its a weak spot, defect or going to cause some issue. LE's are supposed to be top tier and that simple does not look good. Just to maintain the quality of the brand they should have given that one away in a contest as wall art. It would have been worth it just so that image did not appear in this thread.

#6569 3 years ago

Spent over 2.5 decades manufacturing wooden gift items; There's no way that knot in the shooter trough would find its way into our Top-of-Line product. I'd suspect the playfield issues are plentiful to a level where the exposed knot starts to look good. It's tough.

#6570 3 years ago
Quoted from RockfordReplay:

Spent over 2.5 decades manufacturing wooden gift items; There's no way that knot in the shooter trough would find its way into our Top-of-Line product. I'd suspect the playfield issues are plentiful to a level where the exposed knot starts to look good. It's tough.

I suspect that someone with a QA/QC background should have marked the raw playfield as a blemish at the mill or CNC shop, BEFORE all of the inserts, paint and clear was applied. Once that fisnihing artwork effort has been expended, it's a tough choice to be made, but surely not a playfield to be used in production of the top of the line LE unit. Prior to that art finishing, they could have easily scrapped the raw board stock without too much loss. In fact, the supplier may have been willing to credit them back for the delivered unit which was blemished.

#6571 3 years ago
Quoted from Markharris2000:

I suspect that someone with a QA/QC background should have marked the raw playfield as a blemish at the mill or CNC shop, BEFORE all of the inserts, paint and clear was applied. Once that fisnihing artwork effort has been expended, it's a tough choice to be made, but surely not a playfield to be used in production of the top of the line LE unit. Prior to that art finishing, they could have easily scrapped the raw board stock without too much loss. In fact, the supplier may have been willing to credit them back for the delivered unit which was blemished.

Its worrying that along that entire process all those different people said "yep, good enough".

#6572 3 years ago
Quoted from koops:

Its worrying that along that entire process all those different people said "yep, good enough".

Standard Stern quality.

#6573 3 years ago

It’s a very smooth surface still no rough feeling to it at all and won’t effect the play but definitely a defect.

#6574 3 years ago
Quoted from Jackpotjared:

It’s a very smooth surface still no rough feeling to it at all and won’t effect the play but definitely a defect.

I agree with others who've said it's a knot in that plywood layer. I expect it's within acceptable limits from the supplier.

#6575 3 years ago

Can someone tell me about AIQ playfield quality after some time of playing? Dimples or whatever?
Thanks

#6576 3 years ago
Quoted from RockfordReplay:Spent over 2.5 decades manufacturing wooden gift items; There's no way that knot in the shooter trough would find its way into our Top-of-Line product. I'd suspect the playfield issues are plentiful to a level where the exposed knot starts to look good. It's tough.

Your " Top-of-Line product" would not have been made of plywood

#6577 3 years ago
Quoted from Dallas_Pin:

I would expect this PF to look like glass, not ass.[quoted image]

I usually don't look at the playfield to closely until, I got a Beatles that looked like that. Also had some art coming up near the apron along with other minor defects. Stern said the woodgrain showing through the art is normal, but I was able to get a swap due to the apron art luckily. Haven't seen that woodgrain stuff before or after that. The new playfield looked great with zero defects. Seemed like this woodgrain issue was isolated to playfields from late 2018 to early 2019.

Anyone have an idea of what would cause that? moisture, or the wood not being sanded well enough?

#6578 3 years ago
Quoted from JY64:

Your " Top-of-Line product" would not have been made of plywood

Playfields for pinballs have been made of multi-layer laminated wood for as long as I can remember. It allows high finish quality on the top surface and resists warping at the same time. And from a commercial standpoint, the middle layers can be made will less perfect stock which saves money for the manufacturer, which is passed on to the end-user buyer. It's a win-win scenerio, IF QUALITY CONTROLS are in place. It is STERN who defines what quality looks like and what control they desire, not the wood supplier/mill house. I suspect their specification of the playfield product they are willing to buy from the mill are not rigid enough on cosmetic details, they do not have enough specificity on acceptance criteria, etc. But that MAY be intentional.... the more quality specification detail Stern chooses to supply to the mill house, the higher their material costs will be from the mill. I guess they made a trade-off and center layer visual imperfections are not on their quality specification.

#6579 3 years ago
Quoted from hocuslocus:

I usually don't look at the playfield to closely until, I got a Beatles that looked like that. Also had some art coming up near the apron along with other minor defects. Stern said the woodgrain showing through the art is normal, but I was able to get a swap due to the apron art luckily. Haven't seen that woodgrain stuff before or after that. The new playfield looked great with zero defects. Seemed like this woodgrain issue was isolated to playfields from late 2018 to early 2019.
Anyone have an idea of what would cause that? moisture, or the wood not being sanded well enough?

Not so sure about it not being an issue still. That JP Pro would have been mid 2019.

I think it's just the way the clearcoat is applied, it looks like they use a machine that "prints" the clear in the lengthwise rows you see in that pic. For whatever reason in these cases it doesn't fully settle/self-level before it is cured, and Stern isn't sanding these flat and smooth at all.

Even the newest Stern games including my Aug 31st 2020-built DP Pro have similar artifacts in the clear-coat. It is sprayed on and cured and you get what you get, no final sand and polish that I can see. Fast and cheap...

Screen Shot 2020-10-14 at 11.29.43 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2020-10-14 at 11.29.43 AM (resized).png
#6580 3 years ago
Quoted from hocuslocus:

I usually don't look at the playfield to closely until, I got a Beatles that looked like that. Also had some art coming up near the apron along with other minor defects. Stern said the woodgrain showing through the art is normal, but I was able to get a swap due to the apron art luckily. Haven't seen that woodgrain stuff before or after that. The new playfield looked great with zero defects. Seemed like this woodgrain issue was isolated to playfields from late 2018 to early 2019.
Anyone have an idea of what would cause that? moisture, or the wood not being sanded well enough?

It could be any of those things. Stern uses multiple vendors for playfields which in my opinion increases the risk of quality issues and is why we see one customer receive a game with a perfect playfield while another has issues. There's also been speculation that playfields made in the summer can have more issues due to high humidity levels in factories that lack AC.

#6581 3 years ago

That rippling in the clear has been around for a long time. My first WOZ had it, second one is like glass. I've seen it on Fishtales, LOTR, Spiderman to name a few.

I haven't noticed that it affects playfield wear it's just cosmetic.

Not great but I consider it within the production variation range so didn't complain.
I did come to the conclusion that if those types of cosmetic defects were going to bother me, best not to buy NIB.

#6582 3 years ago
Quoted from JY64:

Your " Top-of-Line product" would not have been made of plywood

The Baltic layers were a feature of the product;

Planet-6-Premium-Desk-Stand-7.jpgPlanet-6-Premium-Desk-Stand-7.jpg
#6583 3 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

Can someone tell me about AIQ playfield quality after some time of playing? Dimples or whatever?
Thanks

aviq (resized).JPGaviq (resized).JPG
#6584 3 years ago

Love those rails digging in the PF don't they?

#6585 3 years ago

Been two months no word from Stern on my JP Premium

This is what’s about to happen on my JP premium.

#6586 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Love those rails digging in the PF don't they?

Yeah, on my brand new (zero balls played) Iron Maiden which has a manufacturing date of Sept 30th 2020, there's a few spots where over-tightened guide rails blistered/pooled the art just like that AIQ. They needed to cut the art back around guides just like they did posts. Are you listening Stern???

What are people doing to stop this around guides? You could put a small washer under the mounting points, but if the washer extends into the playfield art, it seems it will just blister/pool around that washer.

#6587 3 years ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

Yeah, on my brand new (zero balls played) Iron Maiden which has a manufacturing date of Sept 30th 2020, there's a few spots where over-tightened guide rails blistered/pooled the art just like that AIQ. They needed to cut art back around guides just like they did posts. Are you listening Stern???
What are people doing to stop this around guides? You could put a small washer under the mounting points, but ig the washer extends into the playfield art, it seems it will just blister/pool around that washer.

First thing I did on my JP2 Premium was loosen all the guides and insert a small fiber washer (cut a slit in on side to get around the post without having to undo playfield - it will hold just fine after) then just hand tighten to the first point of resistance. The washer sits in the post hole area, doesn't press on the playfield and there is enough contact to hold it in place yet keep the rail off the playfield completely. I have over 5000 games on my machine now and it looks brand new

I got them at Home depot in the specialized parts aisle near the other fasteners, they have various sizes to accommodate most rail solutions

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Hardware/Fiber-Washer/N-5yc1vZc21mZ1z0ztch

I used the 1/4 inch ones on mine

#6588 3 years ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

Yeah, on my brand new (zero balls played) Iron Maiden which has a manufacturing date of Sept 30th 2020, there's a few spots where over-tightened guide rails blistered/pooled the art just like that AIQ. They needed to cut the art back around guides just like they did posts. Are you listening Stern???
What are people doing to stop this around guides? You could put a small washer under the mounting points, but if the washer extends into the playfield art, it seems it will just blister/pool around that washer.

Going on year two to three now with Stern not being able to fix this situation.

#6589 3 years ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Going on year two to three now with Stern not being able to fix this situation.

It looked fixed on TMNT, most of those rails look raised, guess they had some old stock they needed to utilize on AIQ

#6590 3 years ago
Quoted from fooflighter:

It looked fixed on TMNT, most of those rails look raised, guess they had some old stock they needed to utilize on AIQ

tmnt (resized).JPGtmnt (resized).JPG

#6591 3 years ago

They need to fix this shit or stop using high powered air tools tightening those down, I guess.

#6592 3 years ago

I am wondering more and more if these issues have to do with the transition from screen printed artwork to direct print. All playfields were screen printed up until recent years. Maybe it's less the clearcoat itself, as it is the artwork coming away from the wood. All of the chipped off pieces of playfield have the artwork still attached to the clear and leave bare wood behind. Is there any evidence to suggest this relatively new process is not the source of the problem?

11
#6593 3 years ago
Quoted from Betelgeuse:

I am wondering more and more if these issues have to do with the transition from screen printed artwork to direct print. All playfields were screen printed up until recent years. Maybe it's less the clearcoat itself, as it is the artwork coming away from the wood. All of the chipped off pieces of playfield have the artwork still attached to the clear and leave bare wood behind. Is there any evidence to suggest this relatively new process is not the source of the problem?

It has been discussed many times on this thread.

In a nutshell.
Direct print UV ink is not adheeing to the wood.
Solution so far has been to pull the artwork back so anything touching the playfield does not have artwork underneath it.
Stern and JJP still do not have it right.
Not sure about Mirco
CPR are changing over to the same process.
Spooky do not have the issue
CGC are still screen printing so do not have these issues.
Deeproot still bragging about nothing. no games yet.

#6594 3 years ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Going on year two to three now with Stern not being able to fix this situation.

Which is why I stopped purchasing NIB Stern games.

#6595 3 years ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

Not sure about Mirco

Mirco does JJP's playfields.

#6596 3 years ago

Should I try to get my money back?

DSCN7272 (resized).JPGDSCN7272 (resized).JPGDSCN7275 (resized).JPGDSCN7275 (resized).JPG
-1
#6597 3 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Mirco does JJP's playfields.

He also does a lot of reproduction playfields and is a really good guy.

#6598 3 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Should I try to get my money back?
[quoted image][quoted image]

throw a cliffy on that b!t@h and call it a day - lol

#6599 3 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

It could be any of those things. Stern uses multiple vendors for playfields which in my opinion increases the risk of quality issues and is why we see one customer receive a game with a perfect playfield while another has issues. There's also been speculation that playfields made in the summer can have more issues due to high humidity levels in factories that lack AC.

using multiple vendors reduces the probability though. If Stern aren't managing their vendors right, only having one increases the risk as much as having two. I'd prefer if they had 2/3 suppliers, that way if the supply doesn't meet the grade they can switch over to an alternative without stopping the plant.

I can't help but think that a company might be inclined to use what they have perhaps knowing it wasn't perfect to keep the expensive to run factory moving...

Since the pooling issues I've been fortunate that the change stern made to flatten the clear seems to be working so far. I've bought 5 stern titles in the last year and none of them have had a playfield problem (touches wood).

#6600 3 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Should I try to get my money back?
[quoted image][quoted image]

Definitely! That's totally unacceptable. Contact the manufacturer and accept nothing less than your money back or a populated playfield.

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