(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

1 year ago



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There are 6481 posts in this topic. You are on page 130 of 130.
#6451 7 days ago

I wish I could thumbs up a moderation!

#6452 7 days ago

I got a NIB CGC AFM SE yesterday. Opened it up and immediately saw a flaw in the paint at the three bank motorized target area by the saucer. It looks like it was touched up poorly by hand then cleared. Feels smooth so definitely under the clear.

Saucer also has a chip in the front like from a ball hit. New in box game with 0 plays.

What would be a reasonable expectation for addressing these issues?

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#6453 7 days ago
Quoted from cconway84:

What would be a reasonable expectation for addressing these issues?

I think that chip in front of the saucer is simply the spot the saucer was attached to the sprue from the molding operation, think about opening a model car box and seeing all the plastic parts attached to each other from the mold, the piece that attaches all the parts together is the sprue. If you don't carefully cut the parts from the sprue, it can leave a mark like that when you break the part off. I think you can simply loosen and spin the saucer around to hide that mark.

The mark on the playfield by the 3 bank drop target. Ugh.. you can't hide that so easily, but it's small. Unfortunately, I'd be very disappointed in that as that's near a focal point of the playfield that I always look to hit with a super skill shot, so I'd be looking at that spot multiple times a game and it would bug me. I'd want them to send me a new populated playfield, and I don't know how much trouble that would be to request and receive. I just know it seems to be difficult to get a replacement playfield through Stern, and I don't think CGC coughed up new playfields to MMR owners with the light/transparent text on inserts, they just supplied a diffuser kit to go under the inserts. I think you might be out of luck on the blemish. It'll be interesting to hear our fellow pinheads viewpoints on this.

#6454 7 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

Games with clear coat pooling/chipping, or clear so thin that it starts chipping in areas after minimal use...
But you've never heard of games with issues out of the box? My JP alone has had screws fly off in the middle of games and it was built this summer. That's not even something I've complained about but it shows that these games are thrown together and not inspected well, or they have a very high tolerance for poor quality. I checked a bunch of other screws on the game and they were loose. They aren't taking the time to screw them in properly at the factory.

So thin or chipping paint is what you call literally falling apart in the box? Things come lose in pinball. I've had posts and screws come lose on my old games as well as my new games. Anytime you move a pin on a truck something comes lose. This is nothing new. That's my point. You and others are being dramatic. I get the issues with the clear coat but that's not like the game is self destructing and parts spilling out of the box.

#6455 7 days ago

Out of luck sounds about right. That blemish IS their fix for the problem.

#6456 7 days ago

Man all these defects for 7k plus. It’s best to just stay clear of nib for a long time. Let others deal with it, buy a used one look it over really good.

#6457 7 days ago

Contact the distributor and let them take it back and deal with it. Would you accept a new car with a “touched up” paint job? I wouldn’t! Or ask for some money back.

#6458 7 days ago

The fact that people are refering to the issue as a blemish answers this question "What would be a reasonable expectation for addressing these issues?"

#6459 7 days ago
Quoted from JY64:

The fact that people are refering to the issue as a blemish answers this question "What would be a reasonable expectation for addressing these issues?"

Do you think there's nothing wrong with the AFM above? Is that acceptable quality on a new $6k - $8k pin?

#6460 7 days ago

My first pinball machine that initiated me into this hobby was a somewhat restored twilight zone. The playfield was practically perfect, and it played perfectly, but the cabinet had some blemishes and the dmd was scratched a little. Still... Overall I thought it was an amazing example of a 25 year old game. When I eventually wanted to sell it, I had several people come check it out, and they all nitpicked every blemish they could find and argued that the price should be lower.

That experience taught me that even though I might not care about this or that imperfection, it's going to be a headache for me later and cost me money. People here call other people crybabies because we complain about manufacturing defects that devalue our machines, but it's a very real loss for people in a hobby that practically demands perfection on the secondary market.

#6461 7 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Do you think there's nothing wrong with the AFM above? Is that acceptable quality on a new $6k - $8k pin?

Judge what you think on the first two pic's as that is what your eyes will see. No it would not faze me a bit the fact is sooner or later your space ship would have the same mark anyway.

#6462 7 days ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

I think you can simply loosen and spin the saucer around to hide that mark.
I'd want them to send me a new populated playfield, and I don't know how much trouble that would be to request and receive.

I think asking for a new spaceship is completely reasonable (and CGC typically has provided similar parts to other people here).
I think the chance of getting a new populated playfield is close to zero. MAYBE they would provide an unpopulated one, but I suspect that even that is a stretch.

I agree that the blemish sucks, but I suspect that you'll need to live with it, unless they are willing to take the entire machine back and replace it with another one (which they might do if it really has no plays on it).

Good luck, and please let us know what your result is.

#6463 7 days ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

I think asking for a new spaceship is completely reasonable (and CGC typically has provided similar parts to other people here).
I think the chance of getting a new populated playfield is close to zero. MAYBE they would provide an unpopulated one, but I suspect that even that is a stretch.
I agree that the blemish sucks, but I suspect that you'll need to live with it, unless they are willing to take the entire machine back and replace it with another one (which they might do if it really has no plays on it).
Good luck, and please let us know what your result is.

Unfortunately I think your spot on....CGC is pretty good at providing spare parts, but when it comes to big tickets items they run for the hills.....

#6464 7 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

My first pinball machine that initiated me into this hobby was a somewhat restored twilight zone. The playfield was practically perfect, and it played perfectly, but the cabinet had some blemishes and the dmd was scratched a little. Still... Overall I thought it was an amazing example of a 25 year old game. When I eventually wanted to sell it, I had several people come check it out, and they all nitpicked every blemish they could find and argued that the price should be lower.
.

Lol... I had one guy on a twilight Zone which was beautiful and all original do the same exact thing.

Came in with a flashlight (no really) and started pissing and moaning about every little thing.

Um.. you know its not brand new right??

These people should find another hobby... maybe those ones where you put your "pristine" stuff in bags or seal it in plastic and stare at it.

#6465 7 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

My first pinball machine that initiated me into this hobby was a somewhat restored twilight zone. The playfield was practically perfect, and it played perfectly, but the cabinet had some blemishes and the dmd was scratched a little. Still... Overall I thought it was an amazing example of a 25 year old game. When I eventually wanted to sell it, I had several people come check it out, and they all nitpicked every blemish they could find and argued that the price should be lower.
That experience taught me that even though I might not care about this or that imperfection, it's going to be a headache for me later and cost me money. People here call other people crybabies because we complain about manufacturing defects that devalue our machines, but it's a very real loss for people in a hobby that practically demands perfection on the secondary market.

Meh. I've sold quite a few games over the past 16 years and only a small percentage of buyers demand perfection. Whenever I've lost a sale because someone was anal retentive, I've always found a more appreciative buyer right behind the ball buster. In fact, when I sold my Fathom, I had 2 people who contacted me afterwards saying how foolish they were to pass up the gorgeous example.

#6466 7 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Meh. I've sold quite a few games over the past 16 years and only a small percentage of buyers demand perfection. Whenever I've lost a sale because someone was anal retentive, I've always found a more appreciative buyer right the ball buster. In fact, when I sold my Fathom, I had 2 people who contacted me afterwards saying how foolish they were to pass up the gorgeous example.

I guess I've been unlucky. The last guy I sold a game to started texting me a week later complaining about issues he was having even though he had told me before it was working perfectly when he got it home. My experience has made me expect more because everyone else seems to.

#6467 7 days ago
Quoted from Elvishasleft:

Lol... I had one guy on a twilight Zone which was beautiful and all original do the same exact thing.
Came in with a flashlight (no really) and started pissing and moaning about every little thing.
Um.. you know its not brand new right??
These people should find another hobby... maybe those ones where you put your "pristine" stuff in bags or seal it in plastic and stare at it.

Yeah, these same people that trash a game for sale will turn around flip the game as mint for some obscene amount. People do this with everything, not just pinball.

#6468 7 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Unfortunately I think your spot on....CGC is pretty good at providing spare parts, but when it comes to big tickets items they run for the hills.....

Agreed. If it doesn’t cost CGC anything, they’ll help you. If it’s expensive you’ll get crickets.

#6469 7 days ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Yeah, these same people that trash a game for sale will turn around flip the game as mint for some obscene amount. People do this with everything, not just pinball.

There's a few resellers here in Southern California that will argue that your game is worth way less than market value then immediately list it for several thousand over value and claim it's prefect. My dad told me he was interested in buying a game "in Fullerton" the other day and I said "I don't know what it is but it's overpriced."

#6470 7 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

There's a few resellers here in Southern California that will argue that your game is worth way less than market value then immediately list it for several thousand over value and claim it's prefect. My dad told me he was interested in buying a game "in Fullerton" the other day and I said "I don't know what it is but it's overpriced."

Every market has a few of these sellers. Theres a guy north of me who is consistently selling games for thousands over market value. He claims he's made several sales, but I highly doubt thats the case (i.e selling an original MMRLE for $12K+). Apparently he's looking for that needle in a haystack....

#6471 4 days ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

So thin or chipping paint is what you call literally falling apart in the box? Things come lose in pinball. I've had posts and screws come lose on my old games as well as my new games. Anytime you move a pin on a truck something comes lose. This is nothing new. That's my point. You and others are being dramatic. I get the issues with the clear coat but that's not like the game is self destructing and parts spilling out of the box.

Cool, can you show us how to tighten down the thin clearcoat and chipping paint? I am aware hardware may not be fully tightened upon shipment and may need some work. Didnt realize there was a similar fix for paint...

#6472 3 days ago

Came across this interesting post in the comments on the Stern FB page last week. I wonder if the "spraying" area was for playfields, cabinets or both. Didn't these pooling issues start about 2 years ago? I still maintain they are battling environmental issues and mixing formula issues in their clearcoating process during the hot and humid months.

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#6473 3 days ago

Unless something has drastically changed, they don't spray anything on site. They use contractors for cabinets which are sent fully assembled and painted black (base cab) and they assemble the wood head sides to the metal box on site. For playfields, they arrive all finished. Stern doesn't make, print or clear these things.

#6474 3 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Cool, can you show us how to tighten down the thin clearcoat and chipping paint? I am aware hardware may not be fully tightened upon shipment and may need some work. Didnt realize there was a similar fix for paint...

People have shown fixes for pooling btw. I'm not saying these are not issues - just not equal to physical parts breaking apart inside the box or a few loose screws. My MET has a few ghosted inserts. Obviously there was some kind of issue with the clear but there is nothing wrong with the game itself. It has played perfect for years. When I sell it someday, I will probably lose a bit on the sale price because of it but not that much.

#6475 3 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Came across this interesting post in the comments on the Stern FB page last week. I wonder if the "spraying" area was for playfields, cabinets or both. Didn't these pooling issues start about 2 years ago? I still maintain they are battling environmental issues and mixing formula issues in their clearcoating process during the hot and humid months.
[quoted image]

Stern has a separate climate controlled room where they cut the playfields. Then send to one of multiple vendors to apply the art and clear. When they return they are stored on racks in the main part of the warehouse that is not climate controlled.

#6476 2 days ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

People have shown fixes for pooling btw. I'm not saying these are not issues - just not equal to physical parts breaking apart inside the box or a few loose screws. My MET has a few ghosted inserts. Obviously there was some kind of issue with the clear but there is nothing wrong with the game itself. It has played perfect for years. When I sell it someday, I will probably lose a bit on the sale price because of it but not that much.

I think they are worse then mechanical. As you stated, its easier to tighten a nut, then fix chipped clearcoat.

#6477 2 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Meh. I've sold quite a few games over the past 16 years and only a small percentage of buyers demand perfection. Whenever I've lost a sale because someone was anal retentive, I've always found a more appreciative buyer right behind the ball buster. In fact, when I sold my Fathom, I had 2 people who contacted me afterwards saying how foolish they were to pass up the gorgeous example.

Not to mention catering to that mindset is a recipe for aggravation. Mr/Mrs Perfection still has your address and phone number. Wait til they get it home and a week later a bulb goes out. “I really need you to drive here and fix this disaster!”

“Uhm, you live 45 minutes away and is it just a bulb? Comes with the territory. Have you TRIED to replace it? Is it just a bulb?” ( pics sent to me show a gi bulb on LH side out. 3 second swap.)

“ I don’t know. I need this fixed NOW!”

“Replace the bulb and you’ll find it’s actually pretty easy and you may enjoy the experience. That’s how I started.”

“So you’re not going to address this?”

“If it’s not just a bulb, then yes. I’ll bring my tools and see what she needs. I understand the overwhelming feeling you have right now, I do. Pin has brand new parts and all new leds(bulbs to them). Probably came loose in shipping.”

“Take a close up of the bulb that’s out please. ( nothing in socket.). Looks like bulb fell out. Open coin door. Is it inside machine?”

“Yes. It’s in my hand. I heard it rattle after we moved it upstairs.” (Yep, that’s the led that fell out).

“With pin off just twist it back in.”

“This machine isn’t what you said. Far from perfect. I’d like a discount.”

“What else is wrong with it?”

“THIS FUCKING BULB. THAT’S WHAT!”

“But nothing else?? Just that?”

“I’m thinking $300 refund. Or I’ll contact my bank.”

“I’m thinking extortion. If you’re not happy with the pin, you want a full refund I’ll pick the pin up.”

“No. $300 will do.”

“I have the money in my account in full. You’ve got no leg to stand on and I’m going to PP you $20 for the hassle of the bulb. With that, don’t call unless you need REAL help, ok?”

“Fuck you.”

“Perfect. Exactly how I expected this to end. Now don’t call me at all.” *click.

Then they tried selling the pin a month later at a $1000 markup. Classy.

#6478 2 days ago

but this is a (bad) joke, right ?
people are not so stupid !? are they ?

remind me that HOT LINE call, a guy with his desktop computer, asking for help while all was off, and there was a... blackout
the heldesk did reply : "put all material back in the boxes and return it to the shop, you're way to stupid to use it"

#6479 2 days ago
Quoted from underlord:

Not to mention catering to that mindset is a recipe for aggravation. Mr/Mrs Perfection still has your address and phone number. Wait til they get it home and a week later a bulb goes out. “I really need you to drive here and fix this disaster!”
“Uhm, you live 45 minutes away and is it just a bulb? Comes with the territory. Have you TRIED to replace it? Is it just a bulb?” ( pics sent to me show a gi bulb on LH side out. 3 second swap.)
“ I don’t know. I need this fixed NOW!”
“Replace the bulb and you’ll find it’s actually pretty easy and you may enjoy the experience. That’s how I started.”
“So you’re not going to address this?”
“If it’s not just a bulb, then yes. I’ll bring my tools and see what she needs. I understand the overwhelming feeling you have right now, I do. Pin has brand new parts and all new leds(bulbs to them). Probably came loose in shipping.”
“Take a close up of the bulb that’s out please. ( nothing in socket.). Looks like bulb fell out. Open coin door. Is it inside machine?”
“Yes. It’s in my hand. I heard it rattle after we moved it upstairs.” (Yep, that’s the led that fell out).
“With pin off just twist it back in.”
“This machine isn’t what you said. Far from perfect. I’d like a discount.”
“What else is wrong with it?”
“THIS FUCKING BULB. THAT’S WHAT!”
“But nothing else?? Just that?”
“I’m thinking $300 refund. Or I’ll contact my bank.”
“I’m thinking extortion. If you’re not happy with the pin, you want a full refund I’ll pick the pin up.”
“No. $300 will do.”
“I have the money in my account in full. You’ve got no leg to stand on and I’m going to PP you $20 for the hassle of the bulb. With that, don’t call unless you need REAL help, ok?”
“Fuck you.”
“Perfect. Exactly how I expected this to end. Now don’t call me at all.” *click.
Then they tried selling the pin a month later at a $1000 markup. Classy.

Ouch. I've been lucky to avoid those buyers over the years! I've had several issues on my end (the buyers side), but all were worked out pretty easily. Most of my issues have been with NIB Stern games most recently/unfortunately

#6480 1 day ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Ouch. I've been lucky to avoid those buyers over the years! I've had several issues on my end (the buyers side), but all were worked out pretty easily. Most of my issues have been with NIB Stern games most recently/unfortunately

Wish it was a joke. Oh well. That was a looong time ago and most others have been great experiences.

I believe they were trying to play the dumb card for constant discounts. If I’d have actually given them $300 they would have pushed for more or just called with yet another ‘issue’ that needed another discount. The fuck you response was the best I had hoped for. You got gangrene just cut it off.

#6481 16 hours ago

Not sure if this has been posted. It's from a patent Stern registered for a shooter lane protector: https://patents.justia.com/patent/10729972

"In operation, the shooter grove is intended to guide the ball smoothly as it moves thru the ball launching alley and onto the playfield. However, it has been seen that repeated launches of the ball can result in the shooter groove becoming damaged. Specifically, it has been seen that the protective hardcoat that is typically provided to the surface of the playfield becomes damaged at the point(s) where the ball impacts the edges of the shooter groove as the ball is being directed towards the playfield. When the protective hardcoat is damaged in this manner, the integrity of the playfield surface is compromised and a costly repair of the damaged area and/or a replacement of the entire playfield are the only known solutions to correct this problem."

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