It looks like the ball guides have a new design (on Avengers) that has raised them up off the playfield and they only make contact at the connection points. I can't tell from all the angles, but it appears that guides digging into the playfield should be a thing of the past. Hope this is correct!

Seems like they are still treating the symptoms of the shitty clear and not fixing the actual issue with the clear. This whole the clear falls off when anything touches it, lets just avoid anything touching it, is not ideal.

LOL you can always buy the next JJP

Keep up the good work guys! No ones buying Sterns!

The manufacturers wish they only cost $1000 - $1500 to build. That number is so far off. Our BOM at Williams in the 90s was $2000. Labor was $250, and you had all the tooling, and development costs -- Design, Programming, Sound, Art, etc. The games were being sold for low $3000 - $3500 range. Fortunately, in our hay-day, we were making 70K games annually. The margins are not near as profitable as you think. Decent volume, low overhead, and/or cost cutting measures is the difference between losing or making money in pinball.

I wonder if that will apply to other games that are being made from here on out also? I mean games like Elvira and TMNT etc?

Ok, so the $7500 machine costs $3000 to build today. Less markup on the category (more like an iPhone consumer model) I guess, but nonetheless some would still wonder why the better playfield can't be put into the LE version costing model, even if it required a 3X markup on whatever the actual incremental for a better playfield was...

I agree, using the better or best playfield stock available, doesn't cost that much more. Why get all the flack for such a small incremental difference? Our raw board stock at Williams was from Techniply in Green Bay and Michigan. Not sure about Stern, but many of the other manufacturers use the Techniply 7 Ply board. Not JJP, and I don't believe CGC, but the others.

By the way, you are still low on the BOM cost for many of today's manufacturers. Pinball gross margins are fairly low. They are not keystoning the price. Stern probably comes closest.

Not Stern, JJP, or CGC... Who does that leave? Spooky?

That is so true today! No one bought any Sterns!

That's a disgrace.

Bummer. I was under the impression that CGC had a reputation for quality, but I've looked closely at some of their HUO machines for sale and man they look beat. Dimpling on par with Stern if not worse.

Really? I've owned all the LE's and they've been great....some dimpling here and there, but nothing like the Sterns I've owned. CGC is awesome if you have a minor problem i.e. broke plastic, bad board, etc.....however we have seen before that they will run for the hills if there's a play field or cabinet problem...

I’m not. My distributor ghosted me. Have a JP premium with pooling and possibly it will chip, it’s just when. Manufactured in June. Avengers looks awesome, but I can’t buy it. Just what if it has issues? Well I already know the answer so there ya go. Congratulations to people that have no issues with any of their recent games from all manufacturers. You win.

The thing is, you can’t really be that mad at Stern - in a general sense - because that’s exactly what they’re doing. They have investors to keep happy, and as a profit seeking entity they are doing the normal thing of seeking to reduce costs wherever they can.

The problem is not that this cost cutting is being exposed, but that it is not making any practical difference to this course. People are still buying the latest themes that are announced, in spite of what is known about the various issues, legacy and newly found, about the consequences due to the cost reductions.

The only leverage consumers have against Stern is not buying their stuff. If enough people do that, the tide will change. If they don’t, and Stern feels that new customers will replace the embittered ones, then nothing will change. In fact, from a quality point of view it’s sure to get worse. It’s clear from the release of new titles with the same old problems, and new ones, that we haven’t found that nadir yet.

So, it’s hard to be too mad at Stern for doing what they’re doing. All the power is in the consumers hands, and they are choosing not to use it.

So tell me just what has been cut from there games in the last ten years

Considering it was 38 days ago when you first reported the pooling and shooter lane chipping, you may want to chill for a little while before calling out your distributor and Stern for “doing nothing”.
If they do decide to fix/replace it, it’s likely to take a few months, I would guess?

LoL

This is not the Pinside mindset.

Man up

Really? why? looks like pretty shitty customer support....all these companies are pretty good with small stuff, but when it comes to a play field or cabinet they run for the hills. I think that people make other potential customers aware of this behavior. Yes it might take months, but ignoring customers who paid thousands of dollars for a game is total BS

I would say there has been several cost cutting moves by pinball. However some have led to improvements as well.

1. Mono target vs drop targets. Enough said!

2. Silk screen real back glass. One could argue translites last forever now

3. Silk screen cabinets vs sticker decals on them.

4. Playfield silkscreen versus digital printing them. I am not sure if this has led to some of the playfield quality issues lately.

5. New Stern Lockdown bars vs previous lockdown bars with associated mechanic interlock bar. The new mechs for sure are cheaper here - however I think better.

6. SAM system vs Spike system. Cheaper node boards meant to be through away technology versus board repair capabilities. Verdict is still out - I would guess people are 50/50 on this one. I like SAMs instant on vs booting up Spike. Longevity verdict is still out on Spike - we just don’t have the runtime. Byproduct is less wire required under playfield- saves too.

7. Playfields used to have the holes routed out for posts years ago - especially around slings etc. maybe they should add this back in - no pooling would happen!

8. Playfield wood. Cheaper and thinner top/bottom layer. Some of this is cost decision, some of this is good wood is getting scarce (old vs new growth).

9. More spinners - ok this is personal preference!

And so on.....people can add to this!

So bottom line yes less cost in a number of cases; however, not all bad changes.

I do like what Elwin is doing lately versus the fan layout- outside box thinking helps.

Oh yeah - Stern needs to get in the modern age where you can customize your game with distributors: you can still have 3 base models - Pro, Prem/LE and SLE. Then allow people to customize decals and colored armor! Heck if you are powdered coating legs black - can’t you offer more colors as a choice, or blades or outer decals!!

My question was to a quote in the last ten years some of your go back futher that that thats ok. In the last ten years you have seen an addition of decals to targets a little thing but not everywon does it even no decals on the back panel before ST it was black wood. Ramps if they are straight they are medal if a tight curve they are plastic. Third flippers and upper / lower playfields are being used but not as much as I would like but certainly more than they used ten years ago. As for spinners and drops they are common on the Premium that is the price compairason to most games there are no games to compair to the price point of the pro

I’ll add to the list the annoying (and cheaper?) moving of the power switch from the bottom of the cab to the side of the backbox.

I am short I hate that

With all the talk on wood these are a 2014 ST and a SW can you see any difference and yes I found there was one quite a surprise I must say

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Hey, if your pal wants to blow his brains out with a new “I hate Stern” post every single day, have at er.
I’m just suggesting that previously, It has taken far longer than 38 days for any issue to be corrected.
Of course, he’s well aware of that fact judging by the numerous (and I do mean NUMEROUS) posts he’s made in this thread alone, advertising how shitty Stern quality is, and that he’ll never buy from them... never buy a NIB, was tempted to buy but will pass due to issues... etc etc etc until “I bought one!!!”
There’s not a Pinsider alive who isn’t aware of Stern games and what you might get into when you buy one, as well as how long a process it can take to have anything resolved. (Same can be said for ANY pinball manufacturer currently?)
Pretending to be unaware, and coming on here Posting innocent is not going to help anyone, and just looks silly.

MultiballManiac: I do sincerely hope that your problem is resolved to your satisfaction, but it’s not likely going to happen as quickly as you’d like. I suggest continuing to follow up with your supplier from time to time, but enjoy your game in the meanwhile and try not to let it stress you out too much. Fingers are crossed for ya. Please post updates.

I knew it,that explains a lot.

.

I'm kind of thinking that he has already been told by his distro that he is shit out of luck already......I could be wrong.

Do tell?

Wood filled in between sheets is less dense I hear.

Can’t see the number of layers or top layer thickness in one of the photos.

I miss the coffin lock on the back box.

The SW is an 1/8 of an inch thicker than the 2014 ST. There has been much speculation on the wood and many other things my speculation is that it's frigging plywood the 1/8 is not a different grade wood it is just that plywood is not all the same

Touché

Actually I had posted something but then choose to take the high road which is more than i can say for you

There is no high road. This is Pinside.

Most of this is just preferences or speculation. Quality of some of the materials may be in question but it's not like things are just flat out missing. It would be great if every game was loaded with drops, spinners, diverters, magnets, mirrored backglass, and complex toys but there are limits to everything. Plus, Stern has made improvements in art, lighting, display/animation, and game code. Ten years ago Stern was making IM, Avatar, and BBH. I would definitely say things are improving overall.

Didn’t you mean short road?

Game design is definitely improving. Quality of parts has gotten worse. Prices have skyrocketed.

I guess some people would rather have a better designed game made with cheaper parts that costs a lot more than a mediocre game with better quality parts that costs a lot less.

I don't think it has to be one or the other. Unlike most people, I guess, I don't see the value in buying a great game that starts falling apart before you even open the box. If game design was everything then we'd all be happy with virtual pins and playing on screens. We're all about the physical nature of the game, and that makes the quality of the components very important.

Thank goodness prices are improving as well from IM, Avatar and BBH.

Seriously, what games are literally falling apart in the box? Never heard one issue like that.

Games with clear coat pooling/chipping, or clear so thin that it starts chipping in areas after minimal use...

But you've never heard of games with issues out of the box? My JP alone has had screws fly off in the middle of games and it was built this summer. That's not even something I've complained about but it shows that these games are thrown together and not inspected well, or they have a very high tolerance for poor quality. I checked a bunch of other screws on the game and they were loose. They aren't taking the time to screw them in properly at the factory.

I think Aerosmith cabs were the ones that split easy on the front corners as a result of cost cutting and using smaller corner brackets. I think Stern are back using bigger ones now but I remember pics of nib cabs that hadn't even survived transit!

This is not true at all. They had a bad batch that were not glued/built properly.

Cabinets outside of WPC used tiny tiny brackets for decades and were never an issue.

Lol I find it cute that you think I care about what someone I have no respect for has to say

Built like a tank

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jjpirates-of-the-caribbean-troubleshooting-tips-issues

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hobbit-trough-troubles

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jjp-potc-left-scoop-poly-post-kit

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/quieting-down-a-woz-ecle-machine#post-4828091

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