(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern

By f3honda4me

4 years ago


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#6351 3 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

This is why they just need to use CPR playfields and be done with it. If they have to tack on $50 to the price to cover the cost, so be it. Thats not admitting anything, thats just making production line changes. But they wont, cause Stern doesnt care.

This is the best possible solution, but unlikely to happen (as you say).

Even if Stern was willing to OEM CPR PF's, the big gotcha is keeping up with Stern demands. Scaling up CPR level quality is certainly doable, but the company as it exists today is unlikely to meet Stern's PF demands while maintaining their impeccable level of quality.

If Stern were motivated to raise their game (which is actually just returning to the quality they had once-upon-a-time), they could do this without delegating to CPR. This isn't rocket science...this is purely a numbers game.

Quoted from seenev:

But how many of those people will suddenly start caring when Stern tacitly admits that their playfields are cheap and defective, but that you can get a decent playfield for even more money? Admitting that they cheap out on the most important part of a machine and then trying to use that to extort even more money from customers would not go over well...
But then again, we're all stupid.

This long winded post is about quality issues with PF's...almost all are aesthetic (warping being an exception, and is obviously a wood quality issue).

Stern offers 3 flavors of games, 3 price points. People get to choose their feature level & price. If people are willing to dish out almost 2k more for an LE, and get almost nothing but exclusivity, armor and early access, why not offer people "quality" options? The existing PF's are far from total shit (my JP2 PF's have held up great and didn't have any flaws I'm aware of). Seems like the likelihood of getting a lemon with all the defects discussed in this post is 10-20%. And operators largely buying Pro's could care less about the aesthetic defects...the existing PF's are fine for location play.

Listen, if Stern really cared about home collectors (and that's a big "if"), their games would reflect what the community wants. Ideally, all Premiums and LE's would have superior, quality-checked PF's. Doing PF swaps is impractical for 98% of the home collector population. When Stern sends out unpopulated PF's, it's really a pacifier, since those PF's will never be installed (which is just waste, not a solution).

#6352 3 years ago

Wonder if it's time to explore alternative materials besides wood - yeah they ball may roll differently, but not sure I would care

#6353 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Listen, if Stern really cared about home collectors (and that's a big "if"),

If they don't care then they better start caring. That's going to be the main market for a while the way the world is now.

#6354 3 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Wonder if it's time to explore alternative materials besides wood - yeah they ball may roll differently, but not sure I would care

I played on a High Speed hardtop and thought it was phenomenal. I wish all playfields were made this way.

-2
#6356 3 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

He tends to troll in the JJP threads although it appears he's never owned a machine....maybe we works for Stern ?

Why would I own a game by a over priced company with shity themes

#6358 3 years ago

Sure was nice while it lasted, if only there was a way to make that permanent...

#6359 3 years ago

I took these a few weeks back so they may not be the same today. One will note that Stern threads are all appreciation threads many of the JJP are teck or help threads so make what you will over this thread these pics are telling LOL

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#6360 3 years ago
Quoted from Darscot:

Sure was nice while it lasted, if only there was a way to make that permanent...

Well this is Pinside god knows there are many on hear I would love to see gone

#6361 3 years ago
Quoted from JY64:

Why would I own a game by a over priced company with shity themes

Everyone has an opinion...

#6362 3 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Yea it basically a big fuck off from the manufacturer.....I mean whats a play field cost them....maybe $300-$400 ?

Although I think you are probably close in price I always find it funny how everyone knows the cost of everything on a pinball machine

#6363 3 years ago
Quoted from JY64:

Although I think you are probably close in price I always find it funny how everyone knows the cost of everything on a pinball machine

Its really not hard to determine the retail price of play fields....the point is Stern's warranty on their product sucks, and its an act of god to get them to even replace a play field....

#6364 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Can't believe I've made 101 posts to this long running, very redundant topic.
Today, I received a CPR repro PF for "Paragon" (after waiting 5 1/2 years after signing up for it.
Was a huge reminder of the artistry and quality produced by Stu and the CPR team. They didn't release it until it was "just right".
Too bad Stern is unwilling to spend an extra $50-$100 for better PF plywood (would solve many problems...warping, graining, cratering). I bet if they offered CPR quality plywood as a $200 upgrade on a Premium/LE, most people would opt-in just to make sure they didn't have to deal with all the BS in this topic!
[quoted image]

Nice playfield gameroom art or replacement very cool. There were many who quoted your post and made this a Stern thing LOL no one said thing one over the 5 1/2 years wtf. What would people say if the had to wait 5 1/2 years for a Stern playfield THE SKY IS FALLING

#6365 3 years ago
Quoted from nicoy3k:

a "premium" playfield option may be the worst idea I've ever heard.

Why?

#6366 3 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Its really not hard to determine the retail price of play fields....the point is Stern's warranty on their product sucks, and its an act of god to get them to even replace a play field....

There still seems to be a price detective around every corner these are just two of them

While I didnt actually intend this. I dont think Stern would have to admit to anything. They could just say they are delivering a better pinball experience with better PF wood, while understanding that operators may not care about it, so they are giving us more choices!!!
It actually blows my mind that they wont use CPR pf and charge the customer $50 more. Stern seems like they just think one title at a time(I know they dont, but for how big they are in the pin world, you would think they would have a longer term vision). Maybe they are that close to bankruptcy?

If Stern's Cost of Goods increased by $200 for a dramatically better/harder chunk of wood, then a manufacturer usually expects at least 6X-8X return at the retail level. So the $200 increase in materials cost would translate to an additional $1200-1600 in retail price. Doing the math backwards reveals a Retail $7000 pinball machine costs about $1200 (in parts) to make in their worse case scenerio, but could be closer to $875 if they are really aggressive. (Then add their assembly/manufacturing labor costs to get their total investment per machine. In this playfield case, changing material would not change labor, so it is just the markup shown above).
So, the diabolical brains here would then ask the question, "So what AM I getting for the difference in cost between the PREMIUM and LE Editions?". Seems like a bunch of vanity stuff, with little actual cost of goods. But then again, the limited edition certificate, the signature of the author, the exclusive club nature of LE, and the powder coatings ARE valuable to some deep collectors which is why the 500 LEs fly off the shelves...
Last question: Would the LE buyers pay an ADDITIONAL $1200-1600 (at list price) on top of the current LE pricing to get a harder more robust playfield?

#6367 3 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

This is a long but informative post from Mike at CPR about the type of wood used at CPR and other manufacturers. This may be why modern Stern's are dimpling more severely and having more quality issues (chipping) than games made 20 years ago.
Just think about it. Stern has raised prices for years, quality has gone down, and yet for around $50 (or less) per game they could make a playfield at CPR's level of quality. It's disappointing and is complete BS considering today's prices.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cpr-playfield-preorders-are-meaningless?tq=&tu=CPR
"Guys;
I have to jump in here as well, on four issues. The first was the Xenon PFs that we ran out of last year. The Xenon's I cut were in no way shape or form ever going to satisfy the entire interest but at the time I had the wood and inserts for a very limited number of PFs. I decided that rather than idle the CNC and layoff the guys it made more since to actually make the PFs I had materials for at the time. The rest of the material had been ordered but the lead times on our materials can be HUGE! It just made since to keep everyone employed and the machines working while new supplies were on route.
The second point I have to comment on is our wood. I absolutely believe that our wood is by FAR the best in the world. We have had many suppliers over the years and in bad times have been forced to use the same wood as the other PF manufacturer uses all the time and let me tell you that doing so is our last resort. Playfield wood over the decades has often been whatever was available to the manufacturers. Many PFs especially in the 70s and 80s PFs used three layers of thick cheap filler wood with two thin layers of maple on the faces, something you could buy at your local building supply only with thicker face veneers. For decades most of the better playfield wood came from North American Plywood near Chicago. It used sweet gum as its filler cores and .040" face veneers. But in 2008 in the downturn they liquidated their custom plywood mill and everyone was scrambling to find wood, even Stern. We then shifted to Marion Plywood from Wisconsin who made two very good orders for us before they shifted their glues to a more green product that warped like crazy. We even tried a Russian Baltic Birch that had custom maple veneers glued to it. It was expensive and unsuitable for several reasons. Finally, the current supplier for Stern contacted us and offered to make our wood. This was several years ago now and we couldn't have been happier as they work directly with us to produce the very best CUSTOM wood you can buy ANYWHERE! Their standard wood for Stern is a good one side panel with 3 layers of white ash and a 0.048" face veneers. After many consultations with their tech guys we came up with what I know is the best playfield wood in the world. We use the same basic setup as Stern, 3 layers of white ash cores then we use 4 layers of maritime hard maple BUT we increased the thickness of the two face veneers by 64% to get a nominal face thickness of 0.075". These huge and thick ONE piece veneers are crazy expensive and we always get this top grade veneer on BOTH sides of your PF. This alone added $12 to the cost of each panel vs just using a second grade veneer on the bottom like Stern does. There's nothing wrong with the way Stern does it, as they just refuse any board they want and since they are so close to the mill, the mill just picks it up with the next load and credits them. We however are a $4000 freight bill away so that won't work. We pay a lot extra to get the very best wood they can produce right off the start. You get a much nicer product and a much denser and tougher PF. This wood is 25% heavier for the same size panel as our old wood and nearly a third heavier as Baltic Birch which some other playfield manufacturers use. I would love to use cheaper wood like some others do, after all why would I pay $12.50/sqft landed when I can get birch at less than $2.00sqft? We use the best densest hardest custom wood we can get because we think its worth it and we always try to make the very best product we can.
There are other point is that we intentionally make three levels of quality. Wow, really? We always try to make perfect playfields, every single time but in the past we ALWAYS did full spot color silkscreens which meant that each and every color layer is individually vectored with trapping layers built and silk screened one color at a time, one on top of the other. 14 colors means 14 trips through the screen press. 14! Even the slightest misalignment in any single layer of the normal 12-14 color process means the final product isn't a gold anymore. Its wood, a living surface so if the ink doesn't lay down into every nook and cranny of every square mm of the grain then its not a gold. If a single piece of dust get in the screen and makes its way into the print which is very hard to prevent then its really not a gold anymore. To screen press a playfield we could never do more than about 1 color a day just due to the logistics of cleaning the ink you just used out of the screen trying to save what you can, then removing the screen and washing it with cleaner and paper towels, then once the ink is out, rinsing and then using a stripper to remove the image from the screen, then rinsing, then bleaching the screen to remove all traces of the previous image, rinsing, then drying the screen. Then you have to coat the screen with a photosensitive liquid and let that dry. Then you lay on your full size and expensive direct contact positive and expose the whole thing to a powerful UV light, then immediately wash the screen once more to expose the image which means a third drying of the screen! Then mount it and align it precisely to the previous image on the screen press, which always involves a few trial and error hits on test prints. Add in a cleaned and sharpened squeegee and print your single color...... now repeat this process for each and every color on the playfield. Any misalignment at all, even as small as 1/64"in ANY layer and you may not have a gold, any mark from handing and small dropout of ink, and deep grain that the ink didn't get to and you may not have a gold anymore. Screen printing is many many times harder to do than printing it digitally. Producing artwork for screen printing is horrendously more difficult than prepping something for a digital print. We are very lucky that we have years worth of vectored artwork that can fairly easily be converted for digital use to be used on our big flatbed but you can't go the other way. If you printed 100 PFs and have 10 that are not perfect you had no choice but to sell them, hence silvers and bronze. It could take you as long as 2 weeks to reprint those 10 PFs. Now if you are doing these on a digital printer you have eliminated ANY chance of a misalignment because its a single flat image not 12-14 images laid on top of one another, the printer is spraying, so surface imperfections are easily covered and there is no screen to get contaminated. So for screen printing, since the artwork is many times more complex in comparison and the printing method is many times more complex its no wonder that we didn't always get 100% gold. Of course if you have something go sideways on a digital print it takes but minutes to sand the ink off and clean it up and run it through the printer once again, $8 in inks costs versus basically spending two weeks trying to rescreen a few seconds. But now that we have the same tech as others we can also fairly easily reprint an error so there will be much fewer silver and bronzes in our future.
Making the right number of PFs for everyone is more art than anything else. Playfields are crazy expensive to make and the production costs are all up front. In some cases royalties and licensing alone can cost as high as 25% of the full retail value of the PF, do some quick math and figure out the size of the check you'd have to write to cover that on 100 pfs!! Inserts can cost $25-$100 per PF due to minimum requirements of the molders. You can figure out our wood costs from above. Add in the costs of 2 CNCs, 2 laser cutters, a silk screen operation, a huge UV flatbed etc.... now figure that 50% of the guys who signed up don't buy!! In the case of Corvette PFs we had 75% of people who signed up didn't purchase as they promised! Have two or three of these happen in a row and anyone would become gun shy real quick or we risk losing our homes! I tried deposits when I first started this and it was a nightmare, lately we have on rare occasions used them again with much more success so maybe that's a possibility but truthfully making smaller numbers is the safest thing to do. Using the digital system instead of silk screening makes much more sense and having the ability to digitally reprint our screen printed seconds may get rid of them almost entirely.
Making PFs is complex, silk screening playfields is stoopid complex and expensive in the very small numbers we make but we do it because we love it.

Am I miss reading this? Sounds like CPR and Stern use the same playfield supplier. CPR uses slightly thicker wood because they logistically can’t refuse sub standard boards.

“There's nothing wrong with the way Stern does it, as they just refuse any board they want and since they are so close to the mill, the mill just picks it up with the next load and credits them. We however are a $4000 freight bill away so that won't work.”

-1
#6368 3 years ago
Quoted from nicoy3k:

Am I miss reading this? Sounds like CPR and Stern use the same playfield supplier. CPR uses slightly thicker wood because they logistically can’t refuse sub standard boards.
“There's nothing wrong with the way Stern does it, as they just refuse any board they want and since they are so close to the mill, the mill just picks it up with the next load and credits them. We however are a $4000 freight bill away so that won't work.”

CPR and Stern DO NOT use the same PF supplier. That is absurd.

Quoted from JY64:

Nice playfield gameroom art or replacement very cool. There were many who quoted your post and made this a Stern thing LOL no one said thing one over the 5 1/2 years wtf. What would people say if the had to wait 5 1/2 years for a Stern playfield THE SKY IS FALLING

Thx. For now, it's game room art. One day, I might swap the PF in my Paragon. Problem is, my Paragon is a HUO beauty. The only issue is minor insert cupping (which happens on all of them, for some reason).

#6369 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

CPR and Stern DO NOT use the same PF supplier. That is absurd.

Thx. For now, it's game room art. One day, I might swap the PF in my Paragon. Problem is, my Paragon is a HUO beauty. The only issue is minor insert cupping (which happens on all of them, for some reason).

According to Mike from CPR they do...

“ Finally, the current supplier for Stern contacted us and offered to make our wood. This was several years ago now and we couldn't have been happier”

#6370 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

CPR and Stern DO NOT use the same PF supplier. That is absurd.

Thx. For now, it's game room art. One day, I might swap the PF in my Paragon. Problem is, my Paragon is a HUO beauty. The only issue is minor insert cupping (which happens on all of them, for some reason).

The cupping occurs because the inserts are not jeweled.

#6371 3 years ago
Quoted from nicoy3k:

According to Mike from CPR they do...
“ Finally, the current supplier for Stern contacted us and offered to make our wood. This was several years ago now and we couldn't have been happier”

Well, that's a false claim (I just double checked with a very reliable source at CPR).

CPR has all their wood manufactured to their custom specs/formula directly at the mill...

#6372 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Well, that's a false claim (I just double checked with a very reliable source at CPR).
CPR has all their wood manufactured to their custom specs/formula directly at the mill...

I don't understand...are you saying that CPR has their own wood mill?

If not, then why couldn't CPR be getting their wood "directly" from the same mill that Stern uses? Just because they have different specs doesn't mean they aren't from the same mill.

#6373 3 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

I don't understand...are you saying that CPR has their own wood mill?
If not, then why couldn't CPR be getting their wood "directly" from the same mill that Stern uses? Just because they have different specs doesn't mean they aren't from the same mill.

OMG...no, I'm not saying "CPR has their own wood mill". smh.

#6374 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

OMG...no, I'm not saying "CPR has their own wood mill". smh.

You have entered the Pinside Zone!

#6375 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

OMG...no, I'm not saying "CPR has their own wood mill". smh.

I didn't think you really were saying this...but you didn't answer my question...

Quoted from mbeardsley:

why couldn't CPR be getting their wood "directly" from the same mill that Stern uses? Just because they have different specs doesn't mean they aren't from the same mill.

#6376 3 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

I didn't think you really were saying this...but you didn't answer my question...

I didn't answer your 2nd question because your 1st question was so ridiculous. If you insist on getting an answer to your 2nd question...here it is:

Of course it's conceivable that CPR could be getting wood from the same mill that Stern uses, but they don't. CPR is based in Canada, where they manufacture their PF's.

#6377 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I didn't answer your 2nd question because your 1st question was so ridiculous. If you insist on getting an answer to your 2nd question...here it is:
Of course it's conceivable that CPR could be getting wood from the same mill that Stern uses, but they don't. CPR is based in Canada, where they manufacture their PF's.

But there is literally a post from CPR themselves saying the get their wood from the same place that Stern does....

-1
#6378 3 years ago
Quoted from nicoy3k:

But there is literally a post from CPR themselves saying the get their wood from the same place that Stern does....

My point exactly...

Quoted from snaroff:

I didn't answer your 2nd question because your 1st question was so ridiculous. If you insist on getting an answer to your 2nd question...here it is:
Of course it's conceivable that CPR could be getting wood from the same mill that Stern uses, but they don't. CPR is based in Canada, where they manufacture their PF's.

My first question was facetious...because you were using a nonsensical argument to support your point - that because the pf's had different specs they must come from different mills, even though CPR says that they don't.

#6379 3 years ago
Quoted from JY64:

There still seems to be a price detective around every corner . . . So the $200 increase in materials cost would translate to an additional $1200-1600 in retail price. Doing the math backwards reveals a Retail $7000 pinball machine costs about $1200 (in parts) to make in their worse case scenerio, but could be closer to $875 if they are really aggressive. (Then add their assembly/manufacturing labor costs to get their total investment per machine. In this playfield case, changing material would not change labor, so it is just the markup shown above).
So, the diabolical brains here would then ask the question, "So what AM I getting for the difference in cost between the PREMIUM and LE Editions?". Seems like a bunch of vanity stuff, with little actual cost of goods. But then again, the limited edition certificate, the signature of the author, the exclusive club nature of LE, and the powder coatings ARE valuable to some deep collectors which is why the 500 LEs fly off the shelves...
Last question: Would the LE buyers pay an ADDITIONAL $1200-1600 (at list price) on top of the current LE pricing to get a harder more robust playfield?

Complains about price detectives then calls up Watson and gets to work disseminating prices.

#6380 3 years ago
Quoted from JY64:

There still seems to be a price detective around every corner these are just two of them
While I didnt actually intend this. I dont think Stern would have to admit to anything. They could just say they are delivering a better pinball experience with better PF wood, while understanding that operators may not care about it, so they are giving us more choices!!!
It actually blows my mind that they wont use CPR pf and charge the customer $50 more. Stern seems like they just think one title at a time(I know they dont, but for how big they are in the pin world, you would think they would have a longer term vision). Maybe they are that close to bankruptcy?
If Stern's Cost of Goods increased by $200 for a dramatically better/harder chunk of wood, then a manufacturer usually expects at least 6X-8X return at the retail level. So the $200 increase in materials cost would translate to an additional $1200-1600 in retail price. Doing the math backwards reveals a Retail $7000 pinball machine costs about $1200 (in parts) to make in their worse case scenerio, but could be closer to $875 if they are really aggressive. (Then add their assembly/manufacturing labor costs to get their total investment per machine. In this playfield case, changing material would not change labor, so it is just the markup shown above).
So, the diabolical brains here would then ask the question, "So what AM I getting for the difference in cost between the PREMIUM and LE Editions?". Seems like a bunch of vanity stuff, with little actual cost of goods. But then again, the limited edition certificate, the signature of the author, the exclusive club nature of LE, and the powder coatings ARE valuable to some deep collectors which is why the 500 LEs fly off the shelves...
Last question: Would the LE buyers pay an ADDITIONAL $1200-1600 (at list price) on top of the current LE pricing to get a harder more robust playfield?

I am not sure what you were smoking when you wrote this post, but please feel free to send some of it my way if you have any extra.

#6381 3 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

I am not sure what you were smoking when you wrote this post, but please feel free to send some of it my way if you have any extra.

Yeah yeah my dispensary doesn’t have this strain.

#6382 3 years ago

JY64 was quoting a post I wrote a week or so ago. (I guess I was channeling Sherlock Holmes). My original point is that anything in a product design that costs a manufacturer money (Cost of Goods) must be translated to the MSRP, usually with a 6 to 8 times markup for business products, and 2-3 times markup for consumer goods. Not sure why that statement caused so much concern or emotion for JY64. What I stated is just product management pricing basics that are used by SUCCESSFUL companies worldwide when determining what they should charge versus what it costs to make. (Manufacturers can charge any markup they like, but the most successful ones have that level of markup).

The point I was trying to make: If collectors would be willing to pay more, and cover the higher cost of goods and its markup, then Stern (et al) could create any quality playfield needed by the collector community.... and the price of an LE might approach $9000-9500 or so...

#6383 3 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

My point exactly...

My first question was facetious...because you were using a nonsensical argument to support your point - that because the pf's had different specs they must come from different mills, even though CPR says that they don't.

I SPOKE TO THE FOLKS THAT RUN CPR...LAST WEEK, IN FACT, AFTER RECEIVING MY PARAGON PF FROM THEM. I'VE BEEN DOING BUSINESS WITH THEM FOR YEARS.

I ASKED THEM EXPLICITLY...THEY WERE VERY CLEAR...NOTHING ABOUT CPR PF MANUFACTURING IS SHARED WITH STERN. NADA.

#6384 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I SPOKE TO THE FOLKS THAT RUN CPR...LAST WEEK, IN FACT, AFTER RECEIVING MY PARAGON PF FROM THEM. I'VE BEEN DOING BUSINESS WITH THEM FOR YEARS.

I ASKED THEM EXPLICITLY...THEY WERE VERY CLEAR...NOTHING ABOUT CPR PF MANUFACTURING IS SHARED WITH STERN. NADA.

Well, that's a BOLD statement...

#6385 3 years ago
Quoted from Markharris2000:

JY64 was quoting a post I wrote a week or so ago. (I guess I was channeling Sherlock Holmes). My original point is that anything in a product design that costs a manufacturer money (Cost of Goods) must be translated to the MSRP, usually with a 6 to 8 times markup for business products, and 2-3 times markup for consumer goods. Not sure why that statement caused so much concern or emotion for JY64. What I stated is just product management pricing basics that are used by SUCCESSFUL companies worldwide when determining what they should charge versus what it costs to make. (Manufacturers can charge any markup they like, but the most successful ones have that level of markup).
The point I was trying to make: If collectors would be willing to pay more, and cover the higher cost of goods and its markup, then Stern (et al) could create any quality playfield needed by the collector community.... and the price of an LE might approach $9000-9500 or so...

It was not about your post it was about everyone knowing the cost of building a game each and every step along the way. Actualy it was more about a post the person I quoted made

#6386 3 years ago
Quoted from JY64:

It was not about your post it was about everyone knowing the cost of building a game each and eery step along the way

Oh, got it. Probably rubs folks the wrong way to know their $7000 machine cost $1000-1500 to build, huh?

#6387 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I SPOKE TO THE FOLKS THAT RUN CPR...LAST WEEK, IN FACT, AFTER RECEIVING MY PARAGON PF FROM THEM. I'VE BEEN DOING BUSINESS WITH THEM FOR YEARS.
I ASKED THEM EXPLICITLY...THEY WERE VERY CLEAR...NOTHING ABOUT CPR PF MANUFACTURING IS SHARED WITH STERN. NADA.

Dude relax it's only Pinside

#6388 3 years ago
Quoted from JY64:

Dude relax it's only Pinside

Solid advice applicable to any thread!

#6389 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I SPOKE TO THE FOLKS THAT RUN CPR...LAST WEEK, IN FACT, AFTER RECEIVING MY PARAGON PF FROM THEM. I'VE BEEN DOING BUSINESS WITH THEM FOR YEARS.
I ASKED THEM EXPLICITLY...THEY WERE VERY CLEAR...NOTHING ABOUT CPR PF MANUFACTURING IS SHARED WITH STERN. NADA.

I mean why would they share anything unless Stern paid them to do so....

#6390 3 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I mean why would they share anything unless Stern paid them to do so....

I know...I just hate when people spread mis-information. CPR is a very small business that focused on PF quality. The effort to produce the Paragon PF was significant...and even though it was painful to wait 5.5 years for it, I appreciate the stunning result.

Stern is all about quantity, cost reduction and cranking PF's out as fast as possible (which is what explains many of the gripes throughout this topic).

#6391 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I know...I just hate when people spread mis-information. CPR is a very small business that focused on PF quality. The effort to produce the Paragon PF was significant...and even though it was painful to wait 5.5 years for it, I appreciate the stunning result.
Stern is all about quantity, cost reduction and cranking PF's out as fast as possible (which is what explains many of the gripes throughout this topic).

dude, the only people spreading mis-information is CPR THEMSELVES. CPR, on this forum, said they used the same supplier as Stern. Not sure what to tell you.

From the horses mouth: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cpr-playfield-preorders-are-meaningless?tq=&tu=CPR

#6392 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I SPOKE TO THE FOLKS THAT RUN CPR...LAST WEEK, IN FACT, AFTER RECEIVING MY PARAGON PF FROM THEM. I'VE BEEN DOING BUSINESS WITH THEM FOR YEARS.

I ASKED THEM EXPLICITLY...THEY WERE VERY CLEAR...NOTHING ABOUT CPR PF MANUFACTURING IS SHARED WITH STERN. NADA.

Ummm....

Quoted from CPR:

Finally, the current supplier for Stern contacted us and offered to make our wood. This was several years ago now and we couldn't have been happier as they work directly with us to produce the very best CUSTOM wood you can buy ANYWHERE! Their standard wood for Stern is a good one side panel with 3 layers of white ash and a 0.048" face veneers. After many consultations with their tech guys we came up with what I know is the best playfield wood in the world. We use the same basic setup as Stern, 3 layers of white ash cores then we use 4 layers of maritime hard maple BUT we increased the thickness of the two face veneers by 64% to get a nominal face thickness of 0.075". These huge and thick ONE piece veneers are crazy expensive and we always get this top grade veneer on BOTH sides of your PF. This alone added $12 to the cost of each panel vs just using a second grade veneer on the bottom like Stern does. There's nothing wrong with the way Stern does it, as they just refuse any board they want and since they are so close to the mill, the mill just picks it up with the next load and credits them. We however are a $4000 freight bill away so that won't work.

Reading between the lines (or actually just reading the lines), seems to indicate that CPR and Stern use the exact same supplier, but with some minor (but maybe significant 0.027") differences in the face veneers.

Maybe something changed at CPR, or maybe they are just referring to the cutting/printing/clearing of the playfields, but I humbly suggest you might be the one who is in the wrong here.

#6393 3 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Solid advice applicable to any thread!

except for the thread one happens to be reading at that particular moment.

#6394 3 years ago

Sounds like there are many JJP customers waiting for Wonka playfield replacements still, that have been waiting for over a year.

JJP continues to post pictures of hordes of new Wonkas on the assembly line while their paid customers get left holding the bag.

Will be very telling to see if they release the rumored game with such a large backlog of outstanding replacement playfields.

On several podcasts I’ve heard the new CEO assert several times now that he’s in charge and running the place, would be interesting to know what the plan is to make good on their promises for those unfortunate customers on “the replacement playfield list.”

Will be even more interesting to see how many people flock to the next title, and if the same issues exist on that game as well. I know of at least one person who won’t be buying it.

#6395 3 years ago
Quoted from Markharris2000:

…and the price of an LE might approach $9000-9500 or so...

Like the $9399 my EHoH LE cost me?

14
#6396 3 years ago

Pinside and acquiring NIB Sterns:

24 hrs ago vs. today

24F92E6C-4FFF-40CD-BFAE-CAFF0FEB6860 (resized).jpeg24F92E6C-4FFF-40CD-BFAE-CAFF0FEB6860 (resized).jpegAA7FA1D9-AA42-490C-A2DC-80F0067EA664 (resized).jpegAA7FA1D9-AA42-490C-A2DC-80F0067EA664 (resized).jpeg
#6397 3 years ago

Raymond Davidson worked on the code also.

10
#6398 3 years ago
Quoted from Vino:

Pinside and acquiring NIB Sterns:
24 hrs ago vs. today [quoted image][quoted image]

I'd be curious to see how many people in this thread that were swearing off Stern games because of playfield issues are now "all in" on Avengers IQ? Buy, Buy, Buy!!!

#6399 3 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

I'd be curious to see how many people in this thread that were swearing off Stern games because of playfield issues are now "all in" on Avengers IQ? Buy, Buy, Buy!!!

I for one am still on the "no more Sterns" train. I've also had some more frustrating developments regarding my playfield issues and trying to get it resolved with Stern, but I'll hold my tongue on that a while longer on the off chance that Stern does anything about it.

#6400 3 years ago

wrong thread!

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