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(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

1 year ago



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  • Latest reply 19 minutes ago by newpinbin
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There are 6534 posts in this topic. You are on page 123 of 131.
#6101 54 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

At what point did people stop saying "these games are made to withstand abuse on location" and start saying "these games were meant to get beat up and worn out on location?" I feel like people used to talk about being designed for location play like that meant the games were built extra sturdy. Now it seems like people say that like it means they're disposable.

Stern has been making the shift to disposable machines over the past several years. If you have been buying NIB over the past decade you would have noticed changes that are removing overbuild which leads to a reduced ability to withstand decades of play.

#6102 53 days ago

So more of a "(gerbil) lifestyle brand"?

#6103 53 days ago
Quoted from fnosm:

Stern has been making the shift to disposable machines over the past several years. If you have been buying NIB over the past decade you would have noticed changes that are removing overbuild which leads to a reduced ability to withstand decades of play.

Who has thrown out their Stern game because it was all used up or completely unplayable in the past decade? If anyone is trying to throw out a game because of bad coil stops or pooling, let me know and I will take it off your hands.

#6104 53 days ago

Read a post in the TMNT thread about drilling holes in the playfield to move rail guides. SMH

#6105 53 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Oh I see. I need to get that rewards program deal on my next game. It’s a good discount.

I worked my butt off last year to get into the standings were I can get the discount. Ask me if I’ve used it?

I was dead set on a Jurassic Park Premium. But since Stern and my Distributor decided they didn’t care about the chunks missing from my Catwoman, I’m not buying anything.

Well, maybe a 240 gallon rimless aquarium....

#6106 53 days ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Who has thrown out their Stern game because it was all used up or completely unplayable in the past decade? If anyone is trying to throw out a game because of bad coil stops or pooling, let me know and I will take it off your hands.

Nice redirect. But back to my point, in 2050 it will be interesting to compare how the 2020 Sterns have held up compared to the 2000 - 2010 Sterns or the 1990 B/W's.

#6107 53 days ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

I worked my butt off last year to get into the standings were I can get the discount. Ask me if I’ve used it?
I was dead set on a Jurassic Park Premium. But since Stern and my Distributor decided they didn’t care about the chunks missing from my Catwoman, I’m not buying anything.
Well, maybe a 240 gallon rimless aquarium....

I just bought my last nib Stern. JP premium. June build. With free pooling of clear.

#6108 53 days ago
Quoted from LukyDuck:

Read a post in the TMNT thread about drilling holes in the playfield to move rail guides. SMH

That was me and only my game. I do not know how ball guides are aligned on other TNMT machines.
This is a fine tweaking mod, because i want my game to work flawlessly and i am a perfectionist, the shots worked beforehand too.
You do not have to do it.

9e2406cf41db3b825d51d79d0e245b3d103d5d73 (resized).jpg2dd78100a719382d3727d825130918e0ce216753 (resized).jpg
#6109 53 days ago
Quoted from Prodoshi:

That was me and only my game. I do not know how ball guides are aligned on other TNMT machines.
This is a fine tweaking mod, because i want my game to work flawlessly and i am a perfectionist, the shots worked beforehand too.
You do not have to do it.[quoted image][quoted image]

I am curious. Couldn't you have elongated the holes in the metal ball guide itself, rather than drilling new holes in the playfield? Seems like modifying the metal guide is significantly more 'reversible' than drilling the playfield. (You could just buy a new ball guide if you want to restore it in the future to 'factory fresh')

#6110 53 days ago
Quoted from fnosm:

Nice redirect. But back to my point, in 2050 it will be interesting to compare how the 2020 Sterns have held up compared to the 2000 - 2010 Sterns or the 1990 B/W's.

90's B/W were not built to last 30 years but here they are. Old timers will tell you stories of issues straight out of the box and hacks done just to keep them running. There are still plenty of games older than that from all decades still going strong. All previous Stern games are still running fine. Most if not all the issues people are complaining about are cosmetic. Maybe in 30 years Stern will be long gone and parts will be tough to find or boards difficult to repair. However, that could be true for any pinball machine made today. If anything I would be more worried about more complex games like JJP.

#6111 53 days ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

90's B/W were not built to last 30 years but here they are. Old timers will tell you stories of issues straight out of the box and hacks done just to keep them running. There are still plenty of games older than that from all decades still going strong. All previous Stern games are still running fine. Most if not all the issues people are complaining about are cosmetic. Maybe in 30 years Stern will be long gone and parts will be tough to find or boards difficult to repair. However, that could be true for any pinball machine made today. If anything I would be more worried about more complex games like JJP.

How many old timers will tell you about ghosting inserts, clear pooling, and artwork breaking off a B/W in under 6 months?

#6112 53 days ago
Quoted from NPO:

How many old timers will tell you about ghosting inserts, clear pooling, and artwork breaking off a B/W in under 6 months?

Probably the same ones that tell you that dimpling has always been normal and that it will even out over time. I don't typically complain about dimpling because it always happens to some degree, but Stern machines seem to have it the worst by far, and I've never seen it even out. It only gets worse over time.

#6113 53 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

Probably the same ones that tell you that dimpling has always been normal and that it will even out over time. I don't typically complain about dimpling because it always happens to some degree, but Stern machines seem to have it the worst by far, and I've never seen it even out. It only gets worse over time.

The worst dimpling I’ve ever seen personally- by far- is on my monster bash remake by CGC. Dimpling is very much an effect of game design and how many air balls are generated, as well as play field color and lighting. Unless you are comparing the same game built by two manufacturers you can’t accurately asses that one maker produces less or more dimpling than another.

#6114 53 days ago

Someday maybe designers will consider the issue of dimpling and adjust their designs and lighting schemes accordingly. I for one belong to the camp who finds visible dimpling really ugly.

#6115 53 days ago
Quoted from Markharris2000:

I am curious. Couldn't you have elongated the holes in the metal ball guide itself, rather than drilling new holes in the playfield?

Absolutely. I would’ve done this as well. Their guides usually allow for some adjustment anyway, but elongating the holes would’ve been my route too.

-1
#6116 53 days ago
Quoted from Markharris2000:

I am curious. Couldn't you have elongated the holes in the metal ball guide itself, rather than drilling new holes in the playfield? Seems like modifying the metal guide is significantly more 'reversible' than drilling the playfield. (You could just buy a new ball guide if you want to restore it in the future to 'factory fresh')

sure, but i didn't want to take the whole loop out. Two extra holes in a spot where nobody sees it was the easy way.
Since the holes where so far off i didnt ran into the trouble of damaging the original holes. And even if so, i could fill the hole up again with the right material .

talking about extra holes in the playfield, look what i found... this came from factory, the metal flap is slightly damaged and someone screwed the ramp wrong... back to the topic again i guess
IMG_20200804_165248 (resized).jpgIMG_20200804_165255 (resized).jpg

#6117 53 days ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

90's B/W were not built to last 30 years but here they are. Old timers will tell you stories of issues straight out of the box and hacks done just to keep them running. There are still plenty of games older than that from all decades still going strong. All previous Stern games are still running fine. Most if not all the issues people are complaining about are cosmetic. Maybe in 30 years Stern will be long gone and parts will be tough to find or boards difficult to repair. However, that could be true for any pinball machine made today. If anything I would be more worried about more complex games like JJP.

Great question. I believe that cheaper materials and cost cutting will lead to a shorter lifespan, only time will tell.
This thread started because among other things playfields are made of inferior plywood today when compared to what was used in the past.

A comparison of the wood and hardware used in a modern Stern to a Stern made in 2003 (TSPP/LOTR) would be interesting, n'est-ce pas ?
Looking through the manuals The Simpsons Pinball Party is listed as ~260lbs. Stranger Things (Premium) is listed as ~210.
Why? Number of Coils(21 v 16)? Cabinet materials?

I think I can hear more flipper noise on a modern Stern compared to Stern machines from the past. Anybody else feel the same way?
Why? Thinner/cheaper materials?

I agree that the loudest hue and cry is over cosmetic issues and rightly so, defects need to be identified and corrected.

I predict that once they solve the cosmetic issues, if they solve the cosmetic issues, quality of construction will be the main complaint.

Back to my original point we won't know for the next 10 years or more whether reducing the quality of the materials will impact overall durability and longevity.

Hit me up in 2030 and we can revisit this over a beer when there is some data to support or refute my hypothesis.

#6118 53 days ago
Quoted from NPO:

How many old timers will tell you about ghosting inserts, clear pooling, and artwork breaking off a B/W in under 6 months?

Again, all cosmetic. Not diminishing those issues but they have nothing to do with how a game plays or if game operational in years to come. I have a MET with a few ghosting inserts that plays flawlessly. Ghosting inserts are common on mid 90's B/W games as well. Maybe if all the clear and art flaked off that would be something but have yet to see that.

Quoted from fnosm:

Great question. I believe that cheaper materials and cost cutting will lead to a shorter lifespan, only time will tell.
This thread started because among other things playfields are made of inferior plywood today when compared to what was used in the past.
A comparison of the wood and hardware used in a modern Stern to a Stern made in 2003 (TSPP/LOTR) would be interesting, n'est-ce pas ?
Looking through the manuals The Simpsons Pinball Party is listed as ~260lbs. Stranger Things (Premium) is listed as ~210.
Why? Number of Coils(21 v 16)? Cabinet materials?
I think I can hear more flipper noise on a modern Stern compared to Stern machines from the past. Anybody else feel the same way?
Why? Thinner/cheaper materials?
I agree that the loudest hue and cry is over cosmetic issues and rightly so, defects need to be identified and corrected.
I predict that once they solve the cosmetic issues, if they solve the cosmetic issues, quality of construction will be the main complaint.
Back to my original point we won't know for the next 10 years or more whether reducing the quality of the materials will impact overall durability and longevity.
Hit me up in 2030 and we can revisit this over a beer when there is some data to support or refute my hypothesis.

Weight and coil count has nothing to do with quality. Why does everyone want back breaking, heavy games? Stern uses metal in backbox instead of wood, board design that use less wiring, and other progressive measures that result in less parts/weight. Welcomed changes imo. It's not like they use balsa wood for cabs and thin plywood for the pf. Obviously, modern games are less packed with features than TSPP but that has nothing to do with the lifespan of a game. I'm pretty confident that the majority of Stern games will be operating for many years to come. Maybe some will look more blown out than others but they will still flip.

#6119 53 days ago

On the point about weight, my dad was helping me set up my JP premium, and he went to hold it up as I put on the legs. Having a Williams standard body at home, he had some expectation of how heavy it was. He was shocked by how light it is. It's true that games require less wiring and electronics mass now, but they just feel cheaper and more flimsy than before. I'm not even dissatisfied with the cabinet or anything with my game. I'm really only upset about the playfield... But I do think it's a cheaper build quality overall.

#6120 52 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

On the point about weight, my dad was helping me set up my JP premium, and he went to hold it up as I put on the legs. Having a Williams standard body at home, he had some expectation of how heavy it was. He was shocked by how light it is. It's true that games require less wiring and electronics mass now, but they just feel cheaper and more flimsy than before. I'm not even dissatisfied with the cabinet or anything with my game. I'm really only upset about the playfield... But I do think it's a cheaper build quality overall.

The metal back boxes are significantly lighter. Combined with the wiring, that’s the bulk of the weight difference.

#6121 52 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

I'm really only upset about the playfield... But I do think it's a cheaper build quality overall.

I can tell you this from personal observation.. My Deadpool playfield is thinner and has less plies than my Spooky ACNC. Also the CC on ACNC is glass smooth and the NIB Deadpool Playfield that I got with the used game (because of CC chipping) is so thin you can feel the paint screening. Also, Deadpool has dimples. ACNC dimples are non existent after well over a thousand plays. So Stern's new playfields are definitely cheaper than Spooky's.

#6122 52 days ago
Quoted from Mr_Outlane:

i can tell you this from personal observation.. My Deadpool playfield is thinner and has less plies than my Spooky ACNC. Also the CC on ACNC is glass smooth and the NIB Deadpool Playfield that I got with the used game (because of CC chipping) is so thin you can feel the paint screening. Also, Deadpool has dimples. ACNC dimples are non existent after well over a thousand plays. So Stern's new playfields are definitely cheaper than Spooky's.

Yeah. My last game before jurassic Park was houdini from AP and the playfield was flawless. It did eventually see some minor dimpling, but the quality was clearly on another level from Stern. These other companies prove that it can be done much better. Stern really has no excuse.

#6123 52 days ago
Quoted from fnosm:

Great question.
Looking through the manuals The Simpsons Pinball Party is listed as ~260lbs. Stranger Things (Premium) is listed as ~210.

An ugly AFM wannabe vs one of the few packed games Stern ever produced, is really not a fair competition. While I would take all these weights with a grain of salt, AP lists Hot Wheels as 275lb unboxed and a AFM are around 250lb, those would be more of a fair comparison.

I think that anyone who honestly believes that Stern currently produces a quality product ether has never owned anything but 2012 and newer Sterns or is completely delusional. My 2004 Stern RBION (while I would not hold it up as the pinnacle of quality) feels like a Bally/Williams game comparatively to modern Stern machines.

#6124 52 days ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Weight and coil count has nothing to do with quality. Why does everyone want back breaking, heavy games? Stern uses metal in backbox instead of wood, board design that use less wiring, and other progressive measures that result in less parts/weight. Welcomed changes imo. It's not like they use balsa wood for cabs and thin plywood for the pf. Obviously, modern games are less packed with features than TSPP but that has nothing to do with the lifespan of a game. I'm pretty confident that the majority of Stern games will be operating for many years to come. Maybe some will look more blown out than others but they will still flip.

Absolute B.S. weight does mostly equal quality and also affects nudging. For example the ultra light PSU used is an absolute POS.

#6125 52 days ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Absolute B.S. weight does mostly equal quality and also affects nudging. For example the ultra light PSU used is an absolute POS.

Then put a bag of sand in the machine then. The transformer being removed from the cabinet is most of the weight loss between older machines and new ones.

#6126 52 days ago

I figure also that if you have legs which are less stiff the game will be easier to nudge. It will have a multiplier effect together with the lower overall weight.

And seeing as pins do not have CO2 emission targets I don‘t see any great need to try to reduce the weight.

#6127 52 days ago

Ball dimples have been my biggest focus. I have a process that has minimized them, and in many cased eliminated them. The problem is it takes me 3-4 months to do it. The ball dimples really bum me out after I spend so much time after the last coat, sanding and polishing the surface. The work I have done makes me realize that what I do to eliminate them could never be done in a production environment. It takes way too long and has way too many man hours. Its hard to know exactly, but I estimate I put 23-33 hours in to a pf by the time I am done, including sealing the back. That is not including any work on the art.

#6128 52 days ago
Quoted from kruzman:

I estimate I put 23-33 hours in to a pf by the time I am done, including sealing the back.

But man, is it beautiful Ron. The NOS Dr. Who playfield you did for me a few years ago is still gorgeous. Keep up the great work!

#6129 52 days ago
Quoted from kruzman:

Ball dimples have been my biggest focus. I have a process that has minimized them, and in many cased eliminated them. The problem is it takes me 3-4 months to do it. The ball dimples really bum me out after I spend so much time after the last coat, sanding and polishing the surface. The work I have done makes me realize that what I do to eliminate them could never be done in a production environment. It takes way too long and has way too many man hours. Its hard to know exactly, but I estimate I put 23-33 hours in to a pf by the time I am done, including sealing the back. That is not including any work on the art.

I wonder what AP and spooky do differently than stern though. Is it just that their flippers aren’t powered my rocket fuel like Stern? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a ball leave the playfield on a AP or Spooky game.

22
#6130 52 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

I wonder what AP and spooky do differently than stern though.

They probably care....

#6131 52 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

I wonder what AP and spooky do differently than stern though. Is it just that their flippers aren’t powered my rocket fuel like Stern? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a ball leave the playfield on a AP or Spooky game.

Yip, so powerful that they over heat and get weak after 20 mins of play

#6132 52 days ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

BKSOR and Munsters also seem to be lesser sellers, so may not be a great sample set

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

which ones? CGC? I can confirm my Houdini does not have this issue, although no title is immune from some games having an issue of some sort

You say BKSOR is a lesser seller but want to use a single Houdini as an example LOL

#6133 52 days ago
Quoted from JY64:

You say BKSOR is a lesser seller but want to use a single Houdini as an example LOL

As I said earlier, my houdini had a perfect playfield as well.

#6134 51 days ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

They probably care....

If spooky, AP and JJP made 75 games a week would their playfields be the same? I hope we can find out one day.

-1
#6135 51 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

If spooky, AP and JJP made 75 games a week would their playfields be the same? I hope we can find out one day.

Can they even make that a year? Lmao

#6136 51 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Then put a bag of sand in the machine then. The transformer being removed from the cabinet is most of the weight loss between older machines and new ones.

Exactly. Stern could just as well produce a crappy heavy pin same as a lighter one. How well you can nudge a machine has absolutely nothing to do with quality. Most of the issues have to do with clear coat and that also has little to do with weight. But whatever. If heavy means quality to you, then go buy the heaviest pins you can find.

#6137 51 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

If spooky, AP and JJP made 75 games a week would their playfields be the same? I hope we can find out one day.

Not if their QC department is doing their job correctly.

#6138 51 days ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

If heavy means quality to you, then go buy the heaviest pins you can find.

Will do!

JJP machines feel the same as my w/b machines. Williams pinball by day, jjp pinball by night, all day!

Except iron maiden with 35 pnds of weights stuffed into the cab.

#6139 51 days ago

2 Barcades in Sioux falls are closing. The pinball club in Fargo also closed. Stern better realize home use may be by far their largest client base and stop ignoring customers with serious quality control issues. Covid has completely changed the coin op world

#6140 51 days ago
Quoted from captainadam_21:

2 Barcades in Sioux falls are closing. The pinball club in Fargo also closed. Stern better realize home use may be by far their largest client base and stop ignoring customers with serious quality control issues. Covid has completely changed the coin op world

Don’t worry. They’ll sell us all the craptastic SLE’s we can complain about. Next one with only a $400 price increase! Get em before they’re gone!

Oh, and stfu everyone about issues, you clearly saw the warning tag.

#6141 51 days ago

Also posted in the TMNT thread:

This happened after 600 balls coming out of the trough with the minimum power of 167 and Mylar in place.
This is a total joke. I just saw it because my shooterlane protector just arrived (not available before) and i wanted to install it.
Afraid of the poor PF quality i checked the left and right ball feed of the ramps... i did protect only one side, the other side started to chip already too so i added 2 layers of Mylar there. I am afraid what comes next. The dimpling is very present, this will look ugly as f... in a few months.

I am shocked about the soft wood/clearcoat combo, wondering why noone has mentioned chipping until now, time will tell. From the first day i tried to protect my game as good as possible.

IMG_20200808_145216 (resized).jpg
#6142 51 days ago
Quoted from Prodoshi:

Also posted in the TMNT thread:
This happened after 600 balls coming out of the trough with the minimum power of 167 and Mylar in place.
This is a total joke. I just saw it because my shooterlane protector just arrived (not available before) and i wanted to install it.
Afraid of the poor PF quality i checked the left and right ball feed of the ramps... i did protect only one side, the other side started to chip already too so i added 2 layers of Mylar there. I am afraid what comes next. The dimpling is very present, this will look ugly as f... in a few months.
I am shocked about the soft wood/clearcoat combo, wondering why noone has mentioned chipping until now, time will tell. From the first day i tried to protect my game as good as possible.
[quoted image]

I had also put a metal protector plate in my shooter lane on my JP and I also got chipping, and in way less than 600 plays. The quality is so bad now that you can make light use of it and try to be proactive about protecting it and it still falls apart.

#6143 51 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

I had also put a metal protector plate in my shooter lane on my JP and I also got chipping, and in way less than 600 plays. The quality is so bad now that you can make light use of it and try to be proactive about protecting it and it still falls apart.

That's what you get with giving JP a 9.7 and EHOH a 1.7. Pinball karma.

#6144 51 days ago
Quoted from kruzman:

Ball dimples have been my biggest focus. I have a process that has minimized them, and in many cased eliminated them. The problem is it takes me 3-4 months to do it. The ball dimples really bum me out after I spend so much time after the last coat, sanding and polishing the surface. The work I have done makes me realize that what I do to eliminate them could never be done in a production environment. It takes way too long and has way too many man hours. Its hard to know exactly, but I estimate I put 23-33 hours in to a pf by the time I am done, including sealing the back. That is not including any work on the art.

This is NO joke guys and gals. I have a Kruzman Funhouse and there's not ONE dimple. Anyone that says dimples are "normal" and/or "unavoidable" is flat out wrong.

#6145 51 days ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Anyone that says dimples are "normal"

They are normal for the most part. Kruzman said above that it’s not feasible for stern to go through the process that is necessary to limit dimples as much as possible.

It would be awesome if all playfields were like his, but they aren’t and doesn’t seem like they ever will be.

#6146 51 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

I had also put a metal protector plate in my shooter lane on my JP and I also got chipping, and in way less than 600 plays. The quality is so bad now that you can make light use of it and try to be proactive about protecting it and it still falls apart.

If you put a metal protector and still got damage you didn’t install the protector correctly...

12
#6147 51 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

They are normal for the most part. Kruzman said above that it’s not feasible for stern to go through the process that is necessary to limit dimples as much as possible.
It would be awesome if all playfields were like his, but they aren’t and doesn’t seem like they ever will be.

In my opinion this is perfectly said. You can expect a nice finish though. I didnt make ball dimples my main focus until a couple 4 or so years ago, before that I focused on looks, and kept in mind the installer and tried to make sure they wouldn't encounter things like the clear lifting, or chipping or the clear being built up too deep in low spots ect. This also led to developing my install kit.
I bought a centaur,just as the seller was finishing installing the new repro pf, and within 100 games, I sure didnt want people to think it was one of my pf's. it was looking like the surface of a golf ball.

The change I made to my process to make it repel dimples required another 5 or 6 man hours and now it takes a minimum of 13 weeks. That didnt make me happy, but its the only way I have found. So its impossible for a production pf to compare

of course all my opinion.

#6148 50 days ago

Thanks for the insight man. Much appreciated.

#6149 50 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

I had also put a metal protector plate in my shooter lane on my JP and I also got chipping, and in way less than 600 plays. The quality is so bad now that you can make light use of it and try to be proactive about protecting it and it still falls apart.

Can you post some photos please? We have Cliffys on every game we own both new and old, no issues.

#6150 50 days ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

Can you post some photos please? We have Cliffys on every game we own both new and old, no issues.

What I meant is that I installed a "shooter lane protector" that I got from pinball life. As that's all it included, I made the assumption that it convered the area with the most impact and should be sufficient for our modest level of use. It didn't seem to help at all as we quickly got clear coat chipping in the groove. My point is that I felt like I took more than reasonable precaution for a new game and it wasn't enough. I don't think you should have to worry about it at all in the first months on a home use game, especially with some sort of "protector."

20200804_105738 (resized).jpg
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