(Topic ID: 249870)

Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern


By f3honda4me

83 days ago



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There are 3119 posts in this topic. You are on page 11 of 63.
#501 76 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Yeah but those things are awesome [quoted image]

I have them on mine and they look even better than my WOZ that is direct ink printed, which look awesome.

#502 76 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Have you looked in a stern manual in the last few years? They don't even include lists of parts like ball guides, posts, plastics, or anything... mounting hardware is way down the list of 'shit you won't find in a stern manual'
Frankly issues like the manual (since about Metallica era) are so abysmal and will really hurt us going forward.. yet most collectors are oblivious to it

Lol, yes, I said it in jest owning 2 modern sterns and about to get a different one in the mix. I just know in my work experience as an Engineer, a band-aid fix still requires Engineering Change Notices for BoM, Work Instruction changes for Assembly, Cost Re-roll for Accounting, Manual changes for After-sales...etc.

Meanwhile, I can imagine somewhere in Illinois, an assembler was recently given $40 out of petty cash and told to run down to Home Depot and buy as many boxes of washers the "size of nickels" as that money can buy and to start putting them under sling posts.

10
#503 76 days ago

Add Munters LE to the list
Checked my pictures when I unboxed and no damage, can't be enough "cure time" as spent 2 months getting shipped here, less than 300 plays.

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#504 76 days ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

Add Munters LE to the list
Checked my pictures when I unboxed and no damage, can't be enough "cure time" as spent 2 months getting shipped here, less than 300 plays.

Hey, some Kitty ghosting too. Sorry.

#505 76 days ago

I would try taking a hair dryer to it, heat it up and press it down. See if it stays down.

#506 76 days ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

My theory is that over time, the blistering (I have very little) will settle flat. Then I'll remove the large washers and put on smaller ones. Hopefully the clear can/will cure close to flat. This is all assuming I can find the damned washers...

You're most likely going to be left with an indentation in the clear from the larger washer though. I would put the larger washers only if you intend on leaving them there permanently.

-12
#507 76 days ago

The more I see the pictures of these issues the more I’m thinking it’s a hardware issue. I think the posts are too narrow and not set deep enough allowing the post to flex on ball impact.....

Notice the location of the pooling - always to the inside of the rubber. The chipping is just a side effect of pooling becoming brittle.

#508 76 days ago
Quoted from Lounge:

The more I see the pictures of these issues the more I’m thinking it’s a hardware issue.

Those posts have been used for years. Decades in the case of star posts, where it's the worst.

-2
#509 76 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

Those posts have been used for years. Decades in the case of star posts, where it's the worst.

I understand that. I’m talking about the bolts that hold the posts to the playfield. And what if the wood is softer? What if the flippers are more powerful? What if they weren’t tightened down properly?

#510 76 days ago
Quoted from Lounge:

The more I see the pictures of these issues the more I’m thinking it’s a hardware issue. I think the posts are too narrow and not set deep enough allowing the post to flex on ball impact.....
Notice the location of the pooling - always to the inside of the rubber. The chipping is just a side effect of pooling becoming brittle.

If the clear is done correctly, you should be able to torque down those posts to the point that they break without affecting the clear

#511 76 days ago
Quoted from Lounge:

I understand that. I’m talking about the bolts that hold the posts to the playfield. And what if the wood is softer? What if the flippers are more powerful?

Occam's razor. We know that the art application and clearcoat process has changed over the past few years. I wouldn't rule out the wood either. The star posts and flippers have been around far too long for it them to suddenly be a problem though. They're the same design and strengths for decades. (Although stuff like the coil stops are noticeably crappier, but those make the flippers weaker)

12
#512 76 days ago
Quoted from Lounge:

I’m talking about the bolts that hold the posts to the playfield. And what if the wood is softer? What if the flippers are more powerful? What if they weren’t tightened down properly?

Dude it's the clearcoat.

#513 76 days ago

Is deadpool not within the timeframes of these issues from Stern?

#514 76 days ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

Add Munters LE to the list
Checked my pictures when I unboxed and no damage, can't be enough "cure time" as spent 2 months getting shipped here, less than 300 plays.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

My Munsters Premium looks identical to your game. If it doesnt get worse then i really wouldn't care, but im afraid thats not going to be the case.

#515 76 days ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

In all honesty, I would be willing to pay extra for a PF with a better coating using higher quality clear - something that actually matters

That shouldn't be necessary or even an option. With the price of these NIB games EVERY game should have a playfield that is as quality as the one the guys took the razor blade and hammer to; not that anyone would do that but it shows how durable a playfield can and should be.

#517 76 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

My Munsters Premium looks identical to your game. If it doesnt get worse then i really wouldn't care, but im afraid thats not going to be the case.

I am the same. But its in a high wear area and dont think its going to stand up to the pounding. Not looking good for 222 plays.

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#518 76 days ago

Remember a couple years ago when Stern's clear was so hard & brittle that it was cracking in shooter lanes and flaking off the edge of outholes? This is the pendulum swung too far in the other direction. Time for some goldilocks clear.

#519 76 days ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

According to the TWIP podcast - they had on people from Poor Man's Podcast and he actually works in the industry
- washers may help, but underlying issue is still there and could get worse in other areas
- if it's not cured and hard by the time we get them - they are never going to get hard and most likely clear was not mixed correctly
- if it's soft now, it's always going to be soft

I’ve been saying for three months it’s a mix/process issue.

#520 76 days ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

Add Munters LE to the list
Checked my pictures when I unboxed and no damage, can't be enough "cure time" as spent 2 months getting shipped here, less than 300 plays.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

That's so bad it almost looks like things were screwed in when the clear was still wet to the touch. Awful.

#521 76 days ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

That's so bad it almost looks like things were screwed in when the clear was still wet to the touch. Awful.

Yeah. In my opinion it's not an issue with posts being hit by the ball, at least on my pirates. Here is the bracket that holds the shooter ramp to the playfield

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#522 76 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

My Munsters Premium looks identical to your game. If it doesnt get worse then i really wouldn't care, but im afraid thats not going to be the case.

Same here. No ghosting inserts at least though (yet). That Kitty insert in the second picture above looks brutally bad. Very sorry to all affected!!

#523 76 days ago
Quoted from Langless28:

Is deadpool not within the timeframes of these issues from Stern?

All of em would be. Maiden examples popped up before Deadpool even hit the lines.

#524 76 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

no one is sure what the warranty is on playfields

Everyone knows exactly what the warranty is on playfields. They are not covered.

Any remedy is outside of warranty. You should have a conversation with your distributor and discuss your concerns and how a problem might be handled BEFORE you have an issue. Get it in writing if you're the cautious type.

#525 76 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

star posts and flippers have been around far too long for it them to suddenly be a problem though. They're the same design and strengths for decades.

Source of your information? AFAIK plastic formulas and manufacturing process have undergone changes over the years. I have no way of knowing if today's star post is the same material, brittleness, and rigidity as star posts from years past. I would be surprised if they were. The plastic industry deals with environmental regulations too.

#526 76 days ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Everyone knows exactly what the warranty is on playfields. They are not covered.
Any remedy is outside of warranty. You should have a conversation with your distributor and discuss your concerns and how a problem might be handled BEFORE you have an issue. Get it in writing if you're the cautious type.

Thing is Stern has sent out populated PFs for similar issues. Now there is precedent on the matter. So now Stern and JJP have to show their response to the clear issue around the same time. What do you think JJP customers are going to do when they see Stern send out populated PFs? They will lose their ****. And for good reason. At that point I would mention lawsuit cause JJPs lawyers would tell them they have no chance of winning this one.

#527 76 days ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Everyone knows exactly what the warranty is on playfields. They are not covered.

Quoted from Extraballz:

Thing is Stern has sent out populated PFs for similar issues.

Not under warranty. People looking for resolution need to remove that word from the conversation. The warranty is printed in every manual I've looked at and it doesn't cover playfields.

Yes, companies have 'taken care of' customers outside of warranty. Without that written warranty we're all left mostly guessing what is covered, for how long, and under what conditions.

It might be helpful to get organized. Decide what to call the defects, document who has them, how many, and on what machines. Affected purchasers could post photos, your distributors could refer to those when dealing with the manufacturers.

#528 76 days ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Not under warranty. People looking for resolution need to remove that word from the conversation. The warranty is printed in every manual I've looked at and it doesn't cover playfields.
Yes, companies have 'taken care of' customers outside of warranty. Without that written warranty we're all left mostly guessing what is covered, for how long, and under what conditions.
It might be helpful to get organized. Decide what to call the defects, document who has them, how many, and on what machines. Affected purchasers could post photos, your distributors could refer to those when dealing with the manufacturers.

Are you referring only to Stern? I can't figure that out from your comments. My understanding is JJPs warranty is a 'bumper to post' meaning everything. Although they do mention dimpling and ghosting are 'normal'

#529 76 days ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Not under warranty. People looking for resolution need to remove that word from the conversation. The warranty is printed in every manual I've looked at and it doesn't cover playfields.
Yes, companies have 'taken care of' customers outside of warranty. Without that written warranty we're all left mostly guessing what is covered, for how long, and under what conditions.
It might be helpful to get organized. Decide what to call the defects, document who has them, how many, and on what machines. Affected purchasers could post photos, your distributors could refer to those when dealing with the manufacturers.

Agreed. Though not technically under warranty the optics of Stern resolving this issue by sending populated PFs while JJP doesn’t will absolutely kill JJPs reputation. I know Stern has sent out some populated PFs in the past and it didn’t ruin JJP but this time it is front and center in the Pinball world. Many seem to be affected and how could those people be expected to forgive JJP if they don’t get what Stern offers to its customers. In some cases JJP pins are double the price of Stern.

#530 76 days ago

Just looked at my HUO Iron Maiden with less than 400 plays. Bought just after release. Didn’t see this as it was hidden behind the drop targets during normal play. Glued it down to prevent further chipping. My first NIB from Stern....

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#531 76 days ago
Quoted from PinballTilt:

Are you referring only to Stern? I can't figure that out from your comments. My understanding is JJPs warranty is a 'bumper to post' meaning everything.

JJP's warranty is at http://marketing.jerseyjackpinball.com/general/jjp_warranty-updated.pdf

#532 76 days ago

Wow so many issues with this, starting to smell like some kind of class action for a pinball playing lawyer. Hopefully someone comes up with a solution to prevent this from occurring in the first place

#533 76 days ago

I think I see enough in there to expect coverage. The PF is a part. And it is defective.

#534 76 days ago
Quoted from 2pupPinz:

Wow so many issues with this, starting to smell like some kind of class action for a pinball playing lawyer. Hopefully someone comes up with a solution to prevent this from occurring in the first place

Seen this before on pinside.
The only winner is the lawyer.

#535 76 days ago

Unbelievable, as soon as Stern regains the confidence of the community after the Ghostbusters saga, it starts happening again!

#536 76 days ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Not under warranty. People looking for resolution need to remove that word from the conversation. The warranty is printed in every manual I've looked at and it doesn't cover playfields.
Yes, companies have 'taken care of' customers outside of warranty. Without that written warranty we're all left mostly guessing what is covered, for how long, and under what conditions.
It might be helpful to get organized. Decide what to call the defects, document who has them, how many, and on what machines. Affected purchasers could post photos, your distributors could refer to those when dealing with the manufacturers.

Interesting. Here in Sweden everything is covered by one year warranty law.
There is NO way to circumvent this.

#537 76 days ago
Quoted from Esoteric_rt:

Unbelievable, as soon as Stern regains the confidence of the community after the Ghostbusters saga, it starts happening again!

Here’s an idea. How about Stern gets its quality back up to say Lord of the Rings. And JJP gets its quality back up to the Hobbit. That’s a start. If I am being honest these quality issues with JJP and Stern really have me rooting for Spooky,CGC,American etc to take a bigger piece of the pie. Now better quality might be something those pin companies can tout over the top two.
Competition is good. It breeds innovation, builds better quality and holds accountable those who take advantage.

#538 76 days ago

I can’t believe both companies have said nothing. This is like when the Dominican Republic said “nothing to see here folks, keep the tourism dollars coming!”

#539 76 days ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Here’s an idea. How about Stern gets its quality back up to say Lord of the Rings. And JJP gets its quality back up to the Hobbit. That’s a start. If I am being honest these quality issues with JJP and Stern really have me rooting for Spooky,CGC,American etc to take a bigger piece of the pie. Now better quality might be something those pin companies can tout over the top two.
Competition is good. It breeds innovation, builds better quality and holds accountable those who take advantage.

I'm happy with Spooky. I've seen some of the post wear but none on my game. They explained it as over tightening which I believe. Its hard to find good help these days and I'm sure that extends to wrench monkeys installing a playfield

#540 76 days ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

Interesting. Here in Sweden everything is covered by one year warranty law.
There is NO way to circumvent this.

Heighway Pinball and Dutch Pinball found a way...

#542 76 days ago


This one was actually pretty good

#543 76 days ago

This was a good episode indeed

#544 76 days ago
Quoted from ViperVS:

This one was actually pretty good

Yes, it was very good. Well done!

#545 76 days ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

Interesting. Here in Sweden everything is covered by one year warranty law.
There is NO way to circumvent this.

People here are telling me the same applies in Oz, to sell the games here they must abide by our consumer laws... apparently.

Checked out my mates 2 new games yesterday; Deadpool LE - Seems okay, did find one post with very minor ripple. Iron Maiden Pro - Most posts have noticable ripples except the sling posts. The posts with washers are the worst. No chipping, yet.

Another friend with BKSOR LE has ripple on many posts, no cracking or chipping as yet. Unboxed it less than 2 weeks ago. Of course, it has been on a ship for 7 months or something

#546 75 days ago

I've seen countless people complain that their machine is chipping and cracking, but I've seen just a few that have said they have contacted their distributor? Am I the only one that immediately reached out to their distributor?

#547 75 days ago

Warranties are the wording and laws the *company* makes -- following the general laws of warranties but ultimately these exist in *their* terms. Warranties exist to cover general, common-sensical failure of the item that couldn't have been forseen by the consumer.

This situation goes beyond the generally-accepted principles of warranty. As a consumer of an item that ranges in price from $6,000-$12,500, in this instance a customer has reasonable cause to expect that the manufacturing process of the playfield was done correctly. Over time, these blisters will peel and potentially ruin the artwork and resale value of this expensive item. At this point in time, there is evidence that blistering leads to noticeable peeling and - in some cases - chips actually coming off of the playfield. Any consumer who has a playfield showing *any* blistering of any sort has cause to suspect the manufacturing process on the entire playfield is flawed. Who knows? Over time, perhaps entire larger chunks may come off due to the fact that the basic process of manufacturing the playfield was flawed.

IMO, the onus shouldn't be on the consumer to take a "wait and see" approach. Since the initial process is proven to be flawed. And since the flawed process *will* result in future damage that goes beyond reasonable historic norms/expectations for the condition of a playfield...any playfield showing any blistering should be subject to recall -- at the manufacturer's expense. Providing a fully populated playfield would be an acceptable outcome for the damaged party.

This reasonable expectation the consumer has that the playfield won't be immediately flawed supersedes a company's own warranty for what they will - or won't - cover. The consumer is entitled to have a general, common-sense expectation that the playfields were manufactured correctly to avoid immediate wear and tear that will potentially adversely impact enjoyment or resale value.

Many here would argue that the playfield is the most important aesthetic aspect of this expensive product and would site collectability and resale concerns. Conversely, in a class action suit, the company named might argue that these are machines meant for routing and they would cite decades of evidence that these are machines of violent impact where the end user can expect wear and tear.

If anything would move forward, it would be a class action suit. To take companies on individually would be absurd and very expensive.

#548 75 days ago

It’s so wrong, but damn it’s funny!

#549 75 days ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

I've seen countless people complain that their machine is chipping and cracking, but I've seen just a few that have said they have contacted their distributor? Am I the only one that immediately reached out to their distributor?

Distro was my first call but was told his hands are tied on this one but he would forwards my pics to JJP and that was all.

Wasn’t real happy with the response

#550 75 days ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

I've seen countless people complain that their machine is chipping and cracking, but I've seen just a few that have said they have contacted their distributor? Am I the only one that immediately reached out to their distributor?

My Star Trek Pro Vault was purchased late January HUO with a playfield protector since day one. I sent my distributor pics of all the posts blistering and 2 areas that have chipped to the wood. Only 800 plays.
This was his response.

Alberto

There is nothing that can be done about it, as it is a common thing and it is out of warranty.

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