Continued issue. Can’t diagnose

Hi guys.

I have a 73 big brave that was performing pretty good until recently.

Now-when the ball drains, it never ejects from the ball return.

As it sits in the ball return, The ball return switch Causes the score wheel to rotate. As it does, relay “o” pulses

The ball never ejects

If I manually simulate the ball passing over the rollover switch, Score motor turns 1/3 of a full rotation and relays “o” and “p” pulse.

The player unit never advances

The game plays/scores properly
The game resets properly

I have cleaned and adjusted every switch on position four of the score motor, and all switches on relay “o” and “p”

I’ve studied the schematic until I’m dizzy.

I appreciate any suggestions you might have.

Thx
Pete

#2 3 years ago

I don't have a big brave but I have had three gottlieb EM's the first thing I would check is ...is the ball return coil getting voltage ....is the coil open ....is there something like a melted sleeve or mechanical problem with the ball return mech. ?

#3 3 years ago

???

petebest

I thought the coil was bad - so I installed a new coil today. New coil tested fine before I put it in, So - it’s not the coil.

What should the voltage be at the coil when tested?

Mechanically - there’s nothing to keep it from moving.

And even if it did fire - when I simulate the ball eject, player unit never advances when it passes over the out hole rollover........

#4 3 years ago

MarkG

Check the four switches that all need to close for the Ball Return to fire. The XB relay is the Last Ball relay.
Big Brave Ball Return (resized).jpg
/Mark

#5 3 years ago

the9gman

Pinside member

4y 43,300 531

so it sounds like p add player unit relay or motor 4c or XB down stream has a problem

#6 3 years ago

???

petebest

If I manually energize the add player relay (p) should the player unit advance?

Pete

#7 3 years ago

???

petebest

Mark-

The wire colors highlighted in yellow in the attached photo match up with my wires. The rest doesn’t match. Maybe that’s why I’m lost on the schematic.

What / where are the switches I’ve circled in red?

Thx
Pete

B8EB7F66-F201-404E-B999-0008EEACAB81 (resized).jpeg

#8 3 years ago

MarkG

OP
Quoted from petebest:
What / where are the switches I’ve circled in red?

The switch labeled O is a normally open switch on the O or Ball Return Relay (as shown in the table in the schematic).
The switch labeled P is a make/break switch on the P or Add Player Unit relay.

For the Ball Return solenoid to fire the O and P relays both need to fire, which should close the two switches you circled. The other two switches need to close too.

#9 3 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi petebest
see the JPG - the schematics tells us about wire-colors in Big Brave. Greetings Rolf

0Big-Brave-Work-18 (resized).jpg

#10 3 years ago

???

petebest

Rolf - do you by chance know the correct “home” position for the bonus unit? On a rivet or on the bakelite?

Thx
Pete

#11 3 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Pete
with post-9 I just wanted to support MarkG - Greetings Rolf

#12 3 years ago

BEN

CaffeineSlug

Pinside+ Frequent

Tucson, AZ

11y 51,300 246 13

OP
Quoted from petebest:
What / where are the switches I’ve circled in red?

Adding to what Mark said - you can find the relevant switch on O by looking at the wire color coming off the ball return coil, and matching it up with a normally open switch on O. Similarly, if you found OR+RED coming off 4C, that will be your middle blade on the make/break switch on P.

A coil not firing is a good time to use a jumper wire to diagnose the problem by bypassing switches in the circuit.

Quoted from MarkG:
For the Ball Return solenoid to fire the O and P relays both need to fire, which should close the two switches you circled.

It looks like P relay should not go yet, the correct switch is already closed. I think the trough switch initiates P to fire.

#13 3 years ago

MarkG

Quoted from CaffeineSlug:
It looks like P relay should not go yet, the correct switch is already closed. I think the trough switch initiates P to fire.

You're right. My bad. The XB/Last Ball relay too should already be in the correct position to allow the Ball Return to fire until you drain the last ball.

#14 3 years ago

MarkG