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(Topic ID: 206476)

'Connected' Pins?


By Pinfactory2000

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 47 posts
  • 20 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by tilted81
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    #1 2 years ago

    It seems like with the more modern pins there could/should be a way to connect them to a network that could, at the very least, update High Scores...Meaning, your home machine could show 'high scores - On this machine' and then 'high scores - worldwide' etc...

    A lot more could be done, especially with the LCD screens. Play in tournament mode and the LCD shows the playfield of the other pin during their turn and then yours to them during your turn...

    Has this ever been done or discussed by any of the manufacturers?

    #2 2 years ago

    I've been saying this for a while now. With the ubiquity of wifi hotspots, there's really no reason not to add wifi compatibility to new games. It could be used for auto-updating of code and pushing diagnostic and audit information to operators via a portal on their smartphone or browser. They could see what games are earning or are in need of service all without having to physically visit a location.

    My guess is that demographical changes in who's buying games is what is stifling something like this from happening. It seems that the largest market for pinball machines now is private homeowners--not operators--where such a feature isn't needed.

    #3 2 years ago
    Quoted from mbaumle:

    I've been saying this for a while now. With the ubiquity of wifi hotspots, there's really no reason not to add wifi compatibility to new games. It could be used for auto-updating of code and pushing diagnostic and audit information to operators via a portal on their smartphone or browser. They could see what games are earning or are in need of service all without having to physically visit a location.
    My guess is that demographical changes in who's buying games is what is stifling something like this from happening. It seems that the largest market for pinball machines now is private homeowners--not operators--where such a feature isn't needed.

    I think the fact that its homeowners makes it MORE attractive! Playing in a tournament from home, not just having your scores populate and having updates/diagnostics done remotely is huge!!

    #4 2 years ago

    I thought so too, but someone mentioned how differently games play based on how they are setup. I think that is a good point. Scores are really only worth tracking when conditions are equal.

    I've basically dropped that idea, but I'd still like to incorporate acheivements across multiple games. Basically, what they now fo for video games. So for Fish Tales there might be an achievement unlocked when you catch 100, 500, and 1000 fish. No points, just another layer to keep people hitting that start button.

    #5 2 years ago

    The problem with online high scores or tournaments becomes honesty. Way too easy for some one to just take the glass off and "correct" their shots...

    #6 2 years ago

    It's not an idea that serious players would take seriously, and I doubt too many people across the board would be interested in it.

    You could never have any kind of tournament that counts this way.

    Auto software updating or service alerts via wi-fi would be a good idea, but the remote tournament idea just doesn't work.

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from ArcadiusMaximus:

    The problem with online high scores or tournaments becomes honesty. Way too easy for some one to just take the glass off and "correct" their shots...

    No, the problem is playing diff'rent machines.

    #8 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    It's not an idea that serious players would take seriously, and I doubt too many people across the board would be interested in it.
    You could never have any kind of tournament that counts this way.
    Auto software updating or service alerts via wi-fi would be a good idea, but the remote tournament idea just doesn't work.

    I'm just thinking for fun. Nothing serious. I just think it would be fun to get in a remote tournament/game with someone (it syncs the rules at the start of it). Like I said, the LCD could show the other playfield too. Maybe 'tournament' is the wrong word here. Basically just playing a two player game remotely.

    The difference in rules is a fair concern but it could just pull scores from pins setup the same way yours is setup.

    Would be a fun option IMO.

    #9 2 years ago

    I agree use the camera and you can go head to head I get games are very different but at the end of the days it's all about having fun so set your game up for your enjoyment and battle if you want just another avenue to enjoy

    #10 2 years ago

    Just wondering what the benefit would be to companies.
    EDIT: for how much effort/cost they'd have to put into it

    #11 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Just wondering what the benefit would be to companies.

    Great question zero.zero just another cost and a bunch of people pissed about how the competition is moderated

    #12 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Just wondering what the benefit would be to companies.

    The same benefit that microsoft and sony saw in networking their game systems I suppose. Not sure though. Perhaps just a better way to justify an ultra SLE Connected Edition $15K model?

    #13 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinfactory2000:

    The same benefit that microsoft and sony saw in networking their game systems I suppose. Not sure though. Perhaps just a better way to justify an ultra SLE Connected Edition $15K model?

    Now don't comparing billion dollar companies with Stern & JJP.

    #14 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinfactory2000:

    I'm just thinking for fun. Nothing serious. I just think it would be fun to get in a remote tournament/game with someone (it syncs the rules at the start of it). Like I said, the LCD could show the other playfield too. Maybe 'tournament' is the wrong word here. Basically just playing a two player game remotely.
    The difference in rules is a fair concern but it could just pull scores from pins setup the same way yours is setup.
    Would be a fun option IMO.

    It's not just the rules though. You could add a switch to detect if the glass is on or not, you could have the software detect which features are on/off. The games will still be setup to play differently: slope, tilt sensitivity, outlanes, etc. I originally had my The Shadow setup at an angle where holding the upper flipper automatically sent the ball into the scoop. I learned that wasn't normal and changed the angle ever so slightly and now it doesn't. There are just small things like that that really have a major effect on gameplay.

    #15 2 years ago
    Quoted from lpeters82:

    It's not just the rules though. You could add a switch to detect if the glass is on or not, you could have the software detect which features are on/off. The games will still be setup to play differently: slope, tilt sensitivity, outlanes, etc. I originally had my The Shadow setup at an angle where holding the upper flipper automatically sent the ball into the scoop. I learned that wasn't normal and changed the angle ever so slightly and now it doesn't. There are just small things like that that really have a major effect on gameplay.

    Yes. Like quality of TV you are playing XBOX on. Headset you're using. Lag time of your home internet connection. Quality of the gamepad.

    Pins are fussier for sure. No doubt. Would still be fun to have the pin be able to list 'worldwide' high scores in an attract screen or something.

    People that take pinball super seriously could turn that 'feature' off.

    #16 2 years ago

    Companies would have to be willing to maintain a server/database for all the scores and or game set variables. Pinball 2000 had this for a while but whoever maintained the server decided not to do it anymore.

    #17 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Now don't comparing billion dollar companies with Stern & JJP.

    You asked what the benefit was. I gave it.

    half my kids toys are connected. All my TV's are connected. My cars are connected. My frickin fridge is a connected device. This isnt cutting edge stuff. Sure, providing support for the LCD to show a competing player would take some investment (and late 90's level software/hardware), but you dont need to be sony to stream content from one place to another.

    Let alone download a table of scores daily.

    #18 2 years ago
    Quoted from hAbO:

    Companies would have to be willing to maintain a server/database for all the scores and or game set variables. Pinball 2000 had this for a while but whoever maintained the server decided not to do it anymore.

    Yeah you're right. I forgot about that. It probably died when they went under.

    #19 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinfactory2000:

    you asked what the benefit could possible be. Next time please outline all of the variable and backdoor 'outs' youre going to give yourself.
    Thanks!

    Well sorry, let me expand on that.
    I understand what you're saying as we've discussed it a lot on Pinside. From a pure "why" do it of course we all get it, link the shit together it's 2018! The problem is, all the companies you've mentioned are massive worldwide companies, with more than like 10 employees

    It's all numbers. Companies lose monies having to put more tech inside a game (they're gonna raise the price anyway so this is just eating profits). We're not even getting into the actual server shit and people working on that; and farming it out or inventing it etc.
    So right away how many people are going to use it? Is it enough of a feature to get people excited enough to balance everything out? How much did JJP adding connectivity with an APP? No idea but I've never used it; granted I'm probably not the key demo on that.

    #20 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinfactory2000:

    Yes. Like quality of TV you are playing XBOX on. Headset you're using. Lag time of your home internet connection. Quality of the gamepad. Pins are fussier for sure. No doubt. Would still be fun to have the pin be able to list 'worldwide' high scores in an attract screen or something.
    People that take pinball super seriously could turn that 'feature' off.

    The only way I really see this working would be to allow individuals to connect machines with friends. I just don't think it would work for the general public. There would be enough people who would find a way to cheat the system to the point where the scores would be meaningless. Having said that, if I were a company looking to add that feature, perhaps they could partner with someone like Pinball Arcade. They already have a high score system, plus their digitized machines could be used to show tutorials on the screen in real machines. I think that would have the greatest impact on routed machines. I find that must non-pinball people are surprised to learn that there are complex rules and modes. I don't consider myself new, but I still watch tutorials to learn how to play certain games. Having that incorporated into the machine seems like an advancement. The main issue could be investing that effort into a machine that is still going though code update.

    #21 2 years ago

    It's impossible to prevent cheating. It's not practical to even attempt it. And oh man, people will cheat. I cannot explain why someone would get satisfaction from taking the glass off and putting up a fake high score on the internet, but I can still promise you people will do it.

    As such the integrity of the high scores would be compromised, and I'd never pay any attention to them whatsoever. That's removing all the "different setup and waxing etc" issues. It's just a non starter because people are jerks.

    #22 2 years ago

    Off topic, but maybe vaguely amusing story:

    When I read the topic title I thought you meant connected like NBA Fastbreak, where two pins would be connected locally. That's still an interesting idea to me, because it solves much of the cheating and setup issues if both games are physically next to each other.

    Anyways, back in a simpler time, when Heighway wasn't a mess and Andrew and I were still talking and the future for Alien seemed brighter there was actually serious talk of Heighway going after the Predator license. I was against it personally, seemed like borrowing bad vibes, but Andrew thought maybe he could entice the Predator buyers or something by actually making a game. It obviously went nowhere, and for the best given what happened afterwards.

    But during the time when the idea was kicked around I pitched something where if you owned both Alien and Predator you could link them together and play a special Alien vs Predator mode that would only occur when the games were connected. A ridiculous easter egg, but it would have been pretty cool.

    #23 2 years ago

    This is the one area that pinball is still in the dark ages. All premium pins should have a full online functionality. Online functionality has proven to massively increase revenue and profit. I work in console gaming and I know they are different, but the math does not lie. Updating your product post ship for free is proven to increase revenue. The entire goal is to keep you consumer playing longer and keeping them as deeply engaged as possible. There are so many easy wins in this area and I go on and on about how it works and why it works. The vocal minority will always just say it doesn't work and poke the same silly holes in it. A major key to being successful online is to learn to ignore that demographic, weed out the liars and naysayers. You do need a decent user base so Stern would make the most sense but they appear to be completely ignorant to the concepts.

    #24 2 years ago

    Impossible to prevent cheating? I couldn't disagree more, simply use a live stream program/camera to be validated into the tournament or competition.

    #25 2 years ago

    too many variables with pinball. Some people set their games up way easy. Some set them up extremely hard . It wouldn't take long and there would be so many stupid unrealistic scores, that the whole system would become pointless in a very short period of time. It's not like a video game, where everyone plays on the same playing field. Hell, people around here can't even play GB without thinking they need a post between the flippers.

    #26 2 years ago

    Agreed.. Too many variables.. but, easiest way would be to have everyone's game set to default and every participant showed their pitch/tilt on their game, obviously more recently waxes games will be a bit more difficult but it's not for big bucks.. it's for fun like (darts, bowling, mario kart and horseshoes etc) maybe a little bit of money hehe.
    I'm just saying it could be done.

    #27 2 years ago
    Quoted from Bowlingpin:

    Agreed.. Too many variables.. but, easiest way would be to have everyone's game set to default and every participant showed their pitch/tilt on their game, obviously more recently waxes games will be a bit more difficult but it's not for big bucks.. it's for fun like (darts, bowling, mario kart and horseshoes etc) maybe a little bit of money hehe.
    I'm just saying it could be done.

    Exactly. You fill out a profile, click a couple answers (outlines set to 1,2 or 3 etc) and go have some fun.

    Sure there will be outliers that cheat etc. just like there are people exploiting glitches and using cheats online.

    As someone said, people are jerks but it shouldn’t bother anyone unless they are taking a game too seriously anyway.

    #28 2 years ago

    This would be amazing. I don’t care about online where you connect to some random person but I do care being able to connect to friends. My buddy who got me into pinball lives 3 hours away now, it would be awesome to have a 2 player game with him.

    #29 2 years ago
    Quoted from MagicSmoke:

    This would be amazing. I don’t care about online where you connect to some random person but I do care being able to connect to friends. My buddy who got me into pinball lives 3 hours away now, it would be awesome to have a 2 player game with him.

    Yeah. Would be fun to add ‘friends’ scores or play against them etc.

    Unfortunately it sounds like the technology simply doesn’t exist and nobody would want it anyway. ?

    #30 2 years ago
    Quoted from Bowlingpin:

    Impossible to prevent cheating? I couldn't disagree more, simply use a live stream program/camera to be validated into the tournament or competition.

    If you're live streaming a game there's no point in any of this extra stuff though. Just live stream yourself playing right now, everyone can see your score, share with the world, have a good time.

    Anyways, I'm simply saying that cheating is so trivially easy that it would make the feature of zero value to me personally. I'd never trust the scores, and I'd never care about adding my own. The cost for adding it to games, and maintaining an infrastructure doesn't feel worth it.

    If a company feels differently and does it then more power to them! Just my personal take on why I don't feel like it's a particularly valuable feature.

    #31 2 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    If you're live streaming a game there's no point in any of this extra stuff though. Just live stream yourself playing right now, everyone can see your score, share with the world, have a good time.
    Anyways, I'm simply saying that cheating is so trivially easy that it would make the feature of zero value to me personally. I'd never trust the scores, and I'd never care about adding my own. The cost for adding it to games, and maintaining an infrastructure doesn't feel worth it.
    If a company feels differently and does it then more power to them! Just my personal take on why I don't feel like it's a particularly valuable feature.

    Thats been done.
    We're taking about connecting the same game throughout multiple people, nationwide/worldwide in real time!?

    #32 2 years ago

    A very cheap camera and detect the playfield slope could solve 95% of cheating. Detect if anything intersects the outside edge of the play area and you pretty much good to go.

    Before people say what about if I take the whole machine apart and intersect all the wires and switches. I did say 95%.

    #33 2 years ago
    Quoted from Darscot:

    A very cheap camera and detect the playfield slope could solve 95% of cheating. Detect if anything intersects the outside edge of the play area and you pretty much good to go.
    Before people say what about if I take the whole machine apart and intersect all the wires and switches. I did say 95%.

    But that's the point. If you can't prevent cheating 100% (and you can't) then there is no point in trying to prevent 95%.

    #34 2 years ago

    the galaxy 3 dart boards have low resolution cameras that stream to your opponent. doubt it would work the same cause then it would take a shitload of harddrive space and bandwidth since you have to record all the games for a game record. that is unless you only recorded the top ten maybe.

    Think the main thing is since it's not the same for everyone, most won't care. this is why I never post high scores, because if a game is missing a tilt bob then I could score 10 times better.

    the last 3 games I've purchased from people didn't have one. Two of those, the tilt bob was still in the paper envelope it came in from the factory.

    #35 2 years ago
    Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

    But that's the point. If you can't prevent cheating 100% (and you can't) then there is no point in trying to prevent 95%.

    Yup.

    I'm not trying to rain on people's parade here, I get it, you want to play with your friends or something and you're not worried about it. But as a commercial feature it's just got too many issues that would ruin it as a mass market product. If I was making a pin I'd see those problems, realize the headaches they create, think about the extra cost and time it would take (and if we're adding cameras it's even more) and scrap it. Because pinball is a physical game, meant to be shared in a physical space.

    Not everything needs to be played over the internet.

    #36 2 years ago

    I don't want to live in a world where my pins connect to the intertubez.
    Edit: and get off my lawn, you damn kids!

    #37 2 years ago
    Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

    But that's the point. If you can't prevent cheating 100% (and you can't) then there is no point in trying to prevent 95%.

    Really this is your argument? I posted a solution I could implement in a couple of days that would keep 95% of the community honest. Nothing in life is 100% yet we still try everything. The top players in the world are all well known. Some guy starts posting high scores that doesn't belong and people are going to notice. Cheating is completely manageable. Every argument against it has been used to death they literally used to say the same shit in gaming. Turns out online is a money printing machine. I need to take my own advice and ignore the vocal minority.

    #38 2 years ago

    Hopefully if you do choose to allow a pinball machine onto your wifi/internet, you understand the risks and can try to protect yourself and your game appropriately.

    #39 2 years ago
    Quoted from RCA1:

    Edit: and get off my lawn, you damn kids!

    This is the real reason why they havent done it. A lot of people in this hobby hate change.

    #40 2 years ago

    The Multimorphic P3 is internet-connected. Heads Up! for the P3 platform is the first online multiplayer pinball game. The machines in the video below are connected via wifi:

    #41 2 years ago
    Quoted from Darscot:

    Really this is your argument? I posted a solution I could implement in a couple of days that would keep 95% of the community honest. Nothing in life is 100% yet we still try everything. The top players in the world are all well known. Some guy starts posting high scores that doesn't belong and people are going to notice. Cheating is completely manageable. Every argument against it has been used to death they literally used to say the same shit in gaming. Turns out online is a money printing machine. I need to take my own advice and ignore the vocal minority.

    Yep that's my argument. You aren't "keeping 95% of the community honest." The community is probably already 95% honest and doesn't need some crazy camera system to keep them honest. People who want to cheat will, regardless of what you try to implement against it. It's cute that you think you can solve this but you can't.

    #42 2 years ago

    By the way, because of its ball-tracking capabilities, the P3 can also detect if you are using your hand instead of the flippers to project the ball.

    #43 2 years ago
    Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

    Yep that'y my argument. You aren't "keeping 95% of the community honest." The community is probably already 95% honest and doesn't need some crazy camera system to keep them honest. People who want to cheat will, regardless of what you try to implement against it. It's cute that you think you can solve this but you can't.

    I'm not going to continue this debate, I knew the reaction pinside would have and its a pointless discussion.

    As to what I can solve I will take the Pepsi challenge when it comes to online cheating with anyone. No system is 100% secure, yet for some reason they still lock the door at the bank.

    #44 2 years ago
    Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

    Yep that's my argument. You aren't "keeping 95% of the community honest." The community is probably already 95% honest and doesn't need some crazy camera system to keep them honest. People who want to cheat will, regardless of what you try to implement against it. It's cute that you think you can solve this but you can't.

    Nobody said it could be 100% stopped. Only that its not a big deal.

    Its pinball.

    Cheating happens in everything. Online gaming, professional sports, business, the world. Probably the universe.

    Doesnt mean the universe shouldn't exist.

    Adding a level to a PF and a sensor to ensure the lockbar is down is all you need to stop the majority of it...And even that is probably too much if its simply for connecting with your buddies. If 5% of people are crazy enough to bypass that stuff to add 3 letters to a leaderboard someplace far away then thats on them and wouldn't change the fact that it would be cool to see worldwide scores (or just your friends scores) scroll through the attract mode of pins.

    People that didnt want to see the 3 letters of their friends scroll through their pin (because there is an outside chance one of those players cheated) they could simply opt out.

    #45 2 years ago
    Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

    Yep that's my argument. You aren't "keeping 95% of the community honest." The community is probably already 95% honest and doesn't need some crazy camera system to keep them honest. People who want to cheat will, regardless of what you try to implement against it. It's cute that you think you can solve this but you can't.

    Just listen.... to yourself....

    #46 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinfactory2000:

    Nobody said it could be 100% stopped. Only that its not a big deal.
    Its pinball.
    Cheating happens in everything. Online gaming, professional sports, business, the world. Probably the universe.
    Doesnt mean the universe shouldn't exist.
    Adding a level to a PF and a sensor to ensure the lockbar is down is all you need to stop the majority of it...And even that is probably too much if its simply for connecting with your buddies. If 5% of people are crazy enough to bypass that stuff to add 3 letters to a leaderboard someplace far away then thats on them and wouldn't change the fact that it would be cool to see worldwide scores (or just your friends scores) scroll through the attract mode of pins.
    People that didnt want to see the 3 letters of their friends scroll through their pin (because there is an outside chance one of those players cheated) they could simply opt out.

    It’s not just cheating, it’s everything. I own two copies of the same game. They play completely differently. If they were connected, it wouldn’t be fair because one is easier than the other. There are just too many variables to make them even.

    There was also an Iron Man on location near me, and I’d walk in and stomp on it because it was setup so much easier than mine. No two games play the same.

    #47 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinfactory2000:

    It seems like with the more modern pins there could/should be a way to connect them to a network that could, at the very least, update High Scores...Meaning, your home machine could show 'high scores -
    Has this ever been done or discussed by any of the manufacturers?

    The pin2000 games had something like this via dial up. Apparently people still log scores on it? I read somewhere about online tournaments back in the day on these.. not bad for a game nearly 2 decades old

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