(Topic ID: 234644)

Upper flipper fires before switch is activated.. Driving me nuts


By Djshakes

4 months ago



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  • 22 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by Djshakes
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#1 4 months ago

Confused on a flipper issue on my Congo. The left upper flipper fires almost instantaneously after the lower. I put in a new opto board and same thing. In switch test, the flipper optos fire fine. Push button half way, lower registers, all the way, upper registers. Nice gaping between lower and upper. However, with coin door shut and coils activating they fire instantaneously. In switch test with coin door shut the upper flipper coil fires before the upper flipper switch registers!!! I found a busted diode on the lower flipper and resoldered. Still didn't fix it. Why would my upper flipper fire before the upper flipper switch registers?

I also notice the lower left flipper isn't as responsive when try to flutter flip on a post transfer etc. I tried three different opto boards so I know it isn't that.

#2 4 months ago

Morning bump.

#3 4 months ago

I'm not sure I can be of much help, but can you confirm the wiring is correct on the flipper coils: Cathode (Banded side of diode) is Power and Anode is the trigger/drive?

I don't know if a bad diode on the upper coil would cause this or not. I *think* that a bad transistor on your power board would cause the coil to activate on power up, but you might want to check the transistors on the 50v/Coil area to see if they are good.

#4 4 months ago

Nothing yet. Changed out the lower coil for good measure with a new. Nothing. No hacks in wiring or board. Do I just send the power driver board in? For some reason the it's as if the ul flipper switch is being bypassed. It works in test, but for some reason both flippers are triggered by the Lower left flipper switch.

#5 4 months ago

Might have found a hack. Not sure if this would cause it. That's on the cpu.

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#6 4 months ago
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#7 4 months ago

Hi pinguy. I think it's just the wire color.

Going to swap the other two coils. Pretty much shotguning at this point hoping on a prayer.

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#8 4 months ago

Are the flipper boards the correct ones?
I had an incorrect board on my Twilight Zone and it would flip the upper flipper first.

#9 4 months ago
Quoted from RVH:

Are the flipper boards the correct ones?
I had an incorrect board on my Twilight Zone and it would flip the upper flipper first.

I'll check.

In the meantime I swapped out all the coils. Coincidentally I just played a game and wanted to adjust the bat's and noticed the lower left flipper coil is really hot after just one game. Upper is fine.

Opto boards are correct ones.

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#10 4 months ago

The flipper button actuator (Black Plastic) should be changed out. Not sure how much that is causing an issue but I’d take a video of it moving in and out of the opto.

#11 4 months ago
Quoted from dmacy:

The flipper button actuator (Black Plastic) should be changed out. Not sure how much that is causing an issue but I’d take a video of it moving in and out of the opto.

I did swap it. That's a new one. Registers swot he's fine. I think I have multiple problems here. Hot coil and both firing. I think boards need to be sent out.

#12 4 months ago

Sounds like a good idea from all the hacks.

#13 4 months ago
Quoted from dmacy:

Sounds like a good idea from all the hacks.

Well the only one I can find is the one in the pic.

#14 4 months ago

Well, I just email Chris Hilber who does my board work. He said that the perceived hack on the cpu is factory. I pulled both boards. Only repair I can see is a couple GI pins being replaced. May still send in the boards as I am at a loss at this point.

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#15 4 months ago

Very odd for sure. The new flipper opto "interuptor" that is new still looks weird to me. Both upper and lower interupts should be same length. In the picture you have to me it looks weird. Also, have you tried swapping the flipper boards in the cabinet?

Photo courtesy of Marco. Link: https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-9001
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#16 4 months ago

It looks like electrical tape on the interrupter. Dmacy has it correct. I bet it is the black plastic piece that is giving you troubles. Spend some time there. Make sure the fingers that interrupt the optos are aligned correctly.

#17 4 months ago
Quoted from Scoot:

It looks like electrical tape on the interrupter. Dmacy has it correct. I bet it is the black plastic piece that is giving you troubles. Spend some time there. Make sure the fingers that interrupt the optos are aligned correctly.

I swapped all the flipper opto boards around with new and old verified working boards. There is a piece of electrical tape I put on there to delay the upper flipper switch a tad. I figured the upper was firing too fast and that tape extends the interrupter a tad so you can really see when the upper flipper switch is activated. I wanted to make sure it wasn't the switch, and as stated, the flipper coil fires prior to opto switch registering.

Recap:
Changes all three flipper coils on machine.
Changed opto boards and interrupters
Pulled boards out, no hacks.
Looked at all wiring, no splices or hacks (my thought was they wired the front flipper to the rear).

Other than sending the boards in (which I'm not sure I should do) I'm lost. I suppose I could hook back up and see if I'm getting 50vdc to the coils.

Tempted to offer someone a pinball t-shirt from one of pinsides vendors if they figure it out.

So upper flipper still fires instantaneously with lower and lower is getting hot after one game. Over 150 degrees. No binding with flipper.

I could put all the boards back in and remove the lighted flipper buttons but I can't imagine them causing this.

#18 4 months ago

Finally had time to test. I'm getting strange voltage readings on my lower left flipper, the one heating up. With game on, I get 70v across all three lugs. However when activating the center lug drops to 2. Seems on my other coils the center and one side drop to 40, the other lug on outside drops to basically nothing. I'm wondering if this has anything to do with that other flipper firing. Sounds like a power driver board issue right? My budsy has an NBA fastbreak I can pull a board out of to test when I have time. Thoughts?

#19 4 months ago

Well, I was able to further diagnose and hoping I have a plan to fix this, although if what I plan on doing doesn't work I will be offering a cash reward to help me fix as I am over this $(%*$*# thing.

So, I swapped out the MPU and PDB from the fastbreak with no luck. I basically put the new PDB in, tested by flipping the flippers a couple times and when that didn't solve it I then replaced the MPU. With both new boards in there was no change. WTF! So I took the NBA fastbreak boards out and put back in the originals because I assumed that wasn't the issue. Back to the drawing board. I was watching the switch matrix in test mode and realized the first left flipper switch was triggering the upper flipper and when fully depressing triggered the lower. BINGO.....I thought I had it figured out. My thought was the factory line worker made an error and flipped the wires going to the flipper opto board. So I switched them around and bingo, lower flipper switch fires first like it should, then upper switch. Easy fix. However, both flippers are still physically activating at the same time. Damn it! In addition I am occasionally blowing fuse f115. I can't find in the manual what flipper that controls. In addition I am getting some funky readings from my flippers. See below.

Problems still present:
1. Flippers firing simultaneously
2. Lower left flipper heats up extremely fast on hold, you can feel the current running through it
3. Popping fuse f115
4. Bad readings below

Right Red wire lug Resting 70 Hold 64 - This seems too high
Right Yellow wire resting 70 Hold 64 - This seems too high
Right orange Resting 70 Hold .74

Lower left Red R 70 H 40
LL Yellow R 70 H 2 - Something funky
LL orange R 70 H 2 - something funky

Upper Left red R 70 H 41
UL yellow R 70 H 40
UL orange R 70 H .7

Considering the funky wiring to the opto switch I decided to check the wiring going out to the playfield and I thought maybe I found my issue with the right flipper hold. It seems according to the manual the orange and green hold wire should be connected to pin 11, mine is connected to pin 10. However, in the schematics section it says pin 10. I don't know if this is a typical Williams typo issue or if it is indeed hooked up wrong?

My next steps in order:
1. Replace lower left flipper coil that is heating up (even though it is new). Take readings.
2. Put NBA fastbreak powerboard back in now that I have fixed the switch issue. Will take flipper readings with that power board in (although it did pop a fuse when I had it in previously) and hoping step 1 is solved and the holding issue on the right flipper is also solved.
3. Still concerned that the simultaneous flipping won't be solved with this but hoping some power is surging to the upper left flipper causing it to fire.
4. Offer a $100 pinside reward to fix if steps 1-3 don't resolve because I'm lost at that point.

Am I off base here?

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#20 4 months ago

Well, I know no one gives a shit about this thread but I'm going to post a followup and someday maybe it will help someone. I often google my pinball problems and searches reference a pinside thread. Below are my findings from the options I mentioned above. Let's consider it my repair journal.

1. I replaced the PDB prior to changing the coil because I didn't adequately test the PDB and MPU swap other than flipping the flippers a couple times. I did this prior to changing the flipper opto wiring around. After swapping the PDB I still was popping the F115 fuse and coil was getting hot.
2. I changed the coil (which was new but I may have shorted because I initially soldered the wires wrong). I put in a used coil I had and the coils function properly and as cool a cucumber. Upper and lower still firing at the same time. But very happy to fix the heating coil and fuse blowing issue.
3. I then replaced the MPU/CPU board again with the NBA FB boards, no difference. Both flippers flip simultaneously.
4. I put back in the original PDB. No change which is good news. No issues with original congo PDB. Only issue to solve is dual firing of flippers. Coils running fine, no fuse pop. At this point I am happy as I am not an expert player and don't often craddle and use the upper flipper only.
5. I put my original MPU back in but actually decided to put the NBA fastbreak roms in figuring I don't care about game play and flippers should still work the same. I thought I could rule out the rom this way. The upper flipper will not activate with the NBA fastbreak roms and my assumption is the game doesn't have an upper left flipper.

Next two items prior to giving up and living with it:
1. I ordered a new rom. My congo rom is the original rom. I might as well upgrade anyway.
2. After reading pinwiki I found out it is common on WPC95 boards for the batteries to drip on connector J212 (which is the switches for the flippers). My board looks clean, but so does the one on pinwiki until they removed the connector and found corrosion under the connector causing flipper issues. My buddy I borrowed the NBA FB MPU from said he also had battery acid issues. My guess is both MPUs have issues. If the rom doesn't fix I will remove the connector at J212. I have honestly exhausted all other options and I think this will fix it. If not, chalk it up to the one pin I couldn't fix. It still plays great, will just flip simultaneously on the left side.

#21 4 months ago

I know on Getaway that both right flippers activate at the same time (you can't stage the flippers). Is it possible that Congo acts that way too? I don't have a Congo to test this but what you're describing might just be an idiosyncrasy of the game. New code might resolve this, but it might not.

Kevin

#22 4 months ago
Quoted from Kevkat:

I know on Getaway that both right flippers activate at the same time (you can't stage the flippers). Is it possible that Congo acts that way too? I don't have a Congo to test this but what you're describing might just be an idiosyncrasy of the game. New code might resolve this, but it might not.
Kevin

I can stagger flippers on my getaway?

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