(Topic ID: 236061)

Configure Bally -35 for Stern Flight 2000, need help


By TheWiz

67 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 20 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 65 days ago by TheWiz
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    #1 67 days ago

    I have a good AS-2518-35 board that boots fine with Playboy 9316a roms for U1, U2 and U6. Am trying to configure it to run Stern Flight 2000 game with 2732 eproms.

    Flight 2000 says it uses U1, U2, U5 and U6, all 2716. I combined U1 and U2 with command “copy /b U1.716+u2.716 u2.732” and U5 and U6 with the command “copy /b u5.716+u6.716 u6.732”

    Changed jumpers on board according to information found on Pinwiki. E4-E13a, E7-E8, E10-E11, E12-GND, E16a-E-29, E31-E32, E33-E35.

    Board does not boot. I get the flicker, 1st flash, 2nd flash but no 3rd flash.

    Burned EPROMs for SpeakEasy which uses 2732 (no combining needed) U2 and U6 only. Per text file jumpers are the same as above except E12 goes to E9 instead of GND. Board boots fine.

    Am I combining files wrong or are the jumpers wrong? Using the same 5101 in all tests so it is good but not getting the third flash says it is bad. I don’t much activity on address lines when it is hung up so I am thinking it is software going off the rails and not a hardware problem since the board works with other eproms.

    I did try the Flight 2000 2732 eproms with the SpeakEasy jumper configuration, same problem, hung after 2nd flash.

    Any ideas on things I can try?

    #2 67 days ago

    They're not compatible. Flight 2000 needs an MPU-200, which has a different clock speed and extra ram.

    If the game passes the first flash the jumpers are fine.

    #3 67 days ago

    A flight 2000 has a Stern M-200 MPU, not a M-100. I think it has a faster clock speed and 2 static RAMs.

    Oops, already answered.

    #4 67 days ago

    I still have a few clean MPU200’s if you decide not to go with a new Alltek board but as was pointed out, you cannot use a -35 in a Flight 2K.

    #6 67 days ago

    Well shoot. Thanks for all the reply’s. I have not worked on early Sterns much so if nothing else I learned something today. I’ll look at the NVRAM solution.

    #7 67 days ago

    Wow, that is great; never knew that adapter existed either!

    #8 67 days ago

    Shouldn't the -35 CPU and PIAs be replaced with "A"-versions when clock frequency is doubled? Or is the original Bally clock so slow that the 1 MHz chips will still work with MPU200 clock?

    #9 67 days ago
    Quoted from Tuukka:

    Shouldn't the -35 CPU and PIAs be replaced with "A"-versions when clock frequency is doubled? Or is the original Bally clock so slow that the 1 MHz chips will still work with MPU200 clock?

    I've always just popped in whatever 6800s I had on hand and never had issues with MPU 200s. Williams boards also use those chips and they run at 1MHz stock.

    #10 67 days ago
    Quoted from Tuukka:

    Shouldn't the -35 CPU and PIAs be replaced with "A"-versions when clock frequency is doubled? Or is the original Bally clock so slow that the 1 MHz chips will still work with MPU200 clock?

    the clock rates are 0.5mhz and 0.9mhz bally/mpu200. regular 6820/6821 work fine.

    MPU 200 also uses eight bit wide SRAM. Bally -35 is 4bit wide SRAM. The conversion adapter linked above picks up the D0-D3 from the 6810 socket and wires is it up to the nvram chip to be eight bit wide.

    #11 67 days ago

    So is there any interchangeability between Bally and Stern MPUs?

    #12 67 days ago
    Quoted from TheWiz:

    So is there any interchangeability between Bally and Stern MPUs?

    MPU-100 and Bally -17 are equivilant.
    Bally -35 is backwards compatible to -17 (and thus MPU-100)
    MPU-200 can be converted to function as a -35 with some jumper changes

    MPU-100/-17 can be used as a -35 if you make some additional board changes (cutting traces, etc)
    -35 can be converted to a 200 with the special RAM daughterboard and replacing the clock capacitors

    There is also a ROM daughterboard you can make that will let you use a single 2764 instead of some combination of 2732s or 2716s. This allows you to bypass all the rom jumpering, and effectively makes -17s work as -35s with no physical changes needed.

    #13 66 days ago

    Wasn’t there a lawsuit over the copying of Bally boards?

    #14 66 days ago
    Quoted from Validpowerdetect:

    Wasn’t there a lawsuit over the copying of Bally boards?

    Yes. I think Stern ended up paying Bally a fee with each board made

    #15 66 days ago
    Quoted from Validpowerdetect:

    Wasn’t there a lawsuit over the copying of Bally boards?

    Yes, indeed! One of the more interesting stories from the early days of electronic pinball technology. Stern bought Chicago Coin in 1977 and put out a couple of EM pinballs using Chicago Coin designs. Bally had just started putting out electronic versions of some EM titles using the -17 board-set, and it became apparent that the newly born Stern Electronics Inc would fail unless they could also build electronic games, but they apparently lacked the expertise (or the time) to develop their own design so they basically just reverse-engineered the Bally system, right down to connector compatibility of most boards. In fact if you compare a Bally -17 and Stern MPU-100 board, you will see that the Bally board is obviously designed on a computer CAD system, with perfect/straight copper traces, while the Stern board is clearly hand-drawn with wiggly/curved copper traces. Basically, the Stern engineers traced the Bally design by hand like a child copying a drawing with tracing-paper! It was a ballsy move, and Bally did sue (and won!) but it saved Stern from probable bankruptcy (for a few years, anyways).

    As described above, it is relatively easy for a skilled technician to adapt Bally and Stern boards to the "other" format, including the two generations. In principle the MPU-200 board was more sophisticated than Bally boards since it has twice the clock-speed and twice the SRAM.

    #16 66 days ago
    Quoted from Dr_Dude:

    so they basically just reverse-engineered the Bally system, right down to connector compatibility of most boards.

    I think that Gary Stern actually just bought the company that was producing the boards for Bally, to make the copying that much easier

    #17 65 days ago
    Quoted from zacaj:

    I think that Gary Stern actually just bought the company that was producing the boards for Bally, to make the copying that much easier

    I'd never heard that: Do you have an online reference for that? I'm a Classic Stern nut, so would love to add to my knowledge of those heady days!

    #18 65 days ago

    I'm not sure where I first heard it. It's mentioned on pinwiki: http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Introduction

    Also see this nice note from a former employee: http://gamearchive.askey.org/pinball/Manufacturers/Stern/text/tonymiller.txt

    #19 65 days ago
    Quoted from zacaj:

    I'm not sure where I first heard it. It's mentioned on pinwiki: http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Introduction
    Also see this nice note from a former employee: http://gamearchive.askey.org/pinball/Manufacturers/Stern/text/tonymiller.txt

    Ah yes, URL (Universal Research Laboratories). The initials show up on some Stern boards. I was aware of the Stern connection, but hadn't heard they were involved in the early Bally boards. I'll have to do some looking on that..

    #20 65 days ago

    Got one of the adaptors front NVRAM.weebly, looks like it will do the job, board boots okay with F2K eproms. Will try it in the game tomorrow.

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