a good set of speakers is like good food.... some people like steak some people like lobster more than steak and vise versa... speakers are like this and once you find a sound you like nothing will change how the speaker sounds so dramatically that the speaker wont sound how you thought it should the day you bought it.... for the most part... changing cables and amps and processors will bring out things better or worse but the speaker will have charistics that are only in that combo so spending big money on speakers is the best thing to spend it on if your gonna spend it...

on amps and amps only (not receivers with amps and dacs and all that stuff intergrated) the same thing applies. an amp will sound a certain way with a certain speaker.... cables can effect this to a degree but finding a combo that works with the speaker sound you like is important..

processors and receivers and intregrated amp units change so often that spending big money I personally feel is wasted.... nothing like buying that 10k (insert brand here) receiver amp combo that now doesn't even have HDMI so then you upgrade after the purchase to an hdmi capapable unit... oh glorious day!!!! and a few years goes by and now wait .... it does not do 3D... shit.... and so on and so fourth......

I can go on and on but to each their own as long as you enjoy what you buy and it fits your need more power to ya....

You're entitled to your own "snobbish" opinion I guess. lol

You may be filthy rich or something but to me the term "high end" includes equipment that costs several thousand dollars not just the gawdy tube rigs with solid gold throughout mounted on fine marble platforms costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and speakers that cost a quarter of a million dollars each. The sky is the limit when it comes to custom audio equipment.

As far as the ultra high-end luxury custom audio business goes, it's still going as strong as it ever has and always will. Just like Rolex and Lamborghini, those companies are focused on the mega-rich with money to burn.

What I consider high-end includes the flagship equipment that the mainstream electronics manufacturers like Pioneer and Denon and a lot of the others used to offer. Still expensive but not more than my house (which is ridiculous).

It was tough before the recession hit in 2007 but as it dragged on it became clear that the high-end $7,000 receivers weren't selling and that the market had shifted for everyone but the Warren Buffets and Mitt Romneys of the world.

What does the term "high-end" mean to you?

Is it a monetary thing like "anything that costs more than $50,000 is considered high-end"?

Please educate me on how much I have to spend to get me some high end equipment.

I don't think he was trying to be snobbish, it's just that mass market Japanese brands are never thought to be high end by audiophiles.

Sony could come out with a $50,000 set of speakers and most audiophiles would look at them and think of the sound of a clock radio.

not trying to be snobbish but..... a high end product from a "mainstream electronics manufacture" is not high end audio.... the fact is just that in your mainstream electronics you get the basics of things even in their upper teir products....

to decifer the difference between why a krell processor and a pioneer processor are worlds apart in price do this
1 look at the manual specs very closely

2 pop the hood so to speak build quality is very very different

high end stuff is high end stuff because of the way it is built and the quality of components used...

speakers are actually very cheap, but put them in a special wood cabinet that is tested acoustically by engineers and built and manufactured a certain way etc etc and now you have a xxxxxxx costing speaker.

mainstream electronics do not have those qualities... but they market to what they do have and not knowing any better you spend money anyway (thousands of dollars) on equipment that is in my opinion sub par to what you could be getting for lets say the same price from another company doing some research.... but that company wont be on a best buy shelf... :0)

Heck, I have magnepan as one of my saved ebay searches (along with 12 ish pinball related searches). I hope you can get them up soon, I love my magies!

High end does not have to be that pricey. You can go used and get a really nice working system for about 1000 bucks if you do it right. It will sound better than anything you can get a BB and well........You have to be careful. My old 1.5QRs I sold were freaking awesome. I sold them with an adcom 535 for $800 bucks. I saw the women who picked them out about a month later and she loves them and none of her friends ever heard something that great. I have better, but I would still consider her setup high end. Quality vs cost, it still sounded high end! *Cheers*

I don't think you've paid a lot of attention to the some of the newer technology "flagship" receivers that are out now and the direction the industry was heading just 5 years ago. The Japanese manufacturers were going all-out and their flagship equipment was far (several thousand dollars more) above the rest of their product lines.

High end receivers like the $7,500 Bang & Olufsen ICE Powered Pioneer Elite SC-09TX and Blu-ray players like the $2,200 Elite BDP-09FD. The next units in line were less than half the price of the flagships. Not anymore. They have cut-out the high-end flagships even though they had rave reviews from all the audiophile and home theater magazines Pioneer lost money on them. Not a whole lot of people were lining up to buy the expensive units during the global economic crisis.

Now they have all scaled-back and you don't see quite as high-end receivers like the SC-09TX today.

I am and have been in the audio video business for the past 11 yrs

There is just nothing about a "receiver" that is going to be viewed as High End by audiophiles. Even if it costs $10,000.

At work we've measured some of those receivers that claim to put out 200WPC x 7 channels and they can't even produce 90W x 2 channels before the OL light comes on and the thing shuts down. I'm sure Home Theater Magazine could perform the same tests (if they wanted to lose the advertising revenue).

Vids right pre amps and amps are the audiophiles way. Just picked up a pair of Accuphase A-65's and matched with the Accuphase 901 and the sound is amazing. The amount of power listed is not the issue it is how pure that power is and how well it is driven (among other things). These are 60w per and if you turn the power half way up you will be pushed back through your back wall and funny enough your ears wont hurt a bit! lol. God bless the Japanese and their electronics!

Theater4.jpgHere's a pic of my HT. Hard to tell because this was shot with a super wide angle lens, but the screen is 9 feet wide. Bigger is better!

Magnepan speakers , best high end value in audio ....... Great sound stage, add a great subwoofer, life is good.

Now I know you are clueless.

lol

I have 2 pair of Magnepan 1.6s...I'll let one pair go for $900 if anyone's interested. 2nd owner, all-original condition. I probably have the boxes but definitely won't ship them.

Ok, back to pinball!

couldn't agree more.

once you hear the difference of separate components there is nothing better.

read a manual..... on that "high end receiver"

high–end
adjective \ˈhī-ˈend\

: higher in price and of better quality than most others

Full Definition of HIGH-END

1: upscale <high–end boutiques>

2: of superior quality or sophistication and usually high in price

The Pioneer Elite SC-09TX, the Denon AVR-5308CI, and the Yamaha RZ-Z11 were the killer flagship HIGH-END Japanese receivers in every definition of the word. They were all dramatically upscale and all were of superior quality and sophistication - and they were all unusually high in price.

That pretty-much meets the definition of "high-end". At least the English definition. Whether you liked them or not is a completely different story.

Some guys don't like the Nissan GT-R Nismo (a high-end Japanese sports car that stands far above the rest of the line) and claim you must own a Ferrari or Porsche or another European exotic to have a true "sports car".

I don't buy that BS either.

lol

Dude! Great receivers but not high end gear or even close. Mark Levinson and pioneer elite are no where in the same category.
We are talking about a different world . Sadly one that once you hear perfect sound you realize the difference.

The definition of "high-end" is not limited to million dollar tube systems (although they would be included).

High end means it is expensive, and stands above most others.

If you want to disagree you must argue the English semantics of the term "high-end" - not simply throw a red herring out (in a crass belittling fashion I might ad).

I don't have Levinson in my house. But sadly I know the difference . It's stupid money but yes that world of gear is that much better. Not trying to be a dick but that's the stuff being talked about .
I can call my bologna high end because it's better than spam but it's still not caviar.

Reading this thread makes me think I'm a perfect example. Years ago (single), I had a decent system NAD,Lexicon etc... And loved it. Now a few years ago I started researching for a new system. I ended up with a pioneer elite. Is it high end? No. Does it do a fabulous job? Absolutely. Axiom speakers and I'm done. I think great audio has become a little more affordable. But I don't fool myself thinking I'm high end. (Until those kids go off to school, then I'm going shopping!)

Well you know, I consider a Z51 Corvette to be a "high-end" car even though there are other exotic supercars out there that cost several times more.

And just like the receivers I listed it is high-end according to the definition.

It might not be the ultimate but it stands above all the rest in its product line and also cost a lot more.

It's high-end.

lol

For you gate.

Just comparing amplifier output and total harmonic distortion
The first pic is from a Yamaha z11 manual ( I owned one btw )
The next is from what ever crap pioneer is putting out now there audio phone receiver which is worse than the Yamaha which is not that bad. And the last from a Macintosh amplifier.

Only comparing amplifier output ratings and thd

image-630.jpg

image-664.jpg

image-900.jpg

in case your not aware what it takes to go from a .04%thd to .005%thd at full power output and 4 ohms... its a lot..

the pioneer basically chokes at 4ohms its at 1% THD hahaha

And those are trumped up numbers.

Put a flagship receiver on the bench and watch it shut down in overload mode, long before you reach any of those numbers.

What does that have to do with the topic of this thread?

Everything you said may be true but it doesn't change the fact that there are high end receivers that perform better than the run of the mill receivers and cost a whole lot more. That's the definition of high end.

All I noted was that Pioneer and the others aren't making as expensive ones as they did in 2008 (look it up and try to stay on topic next time). The industry has changed direction to some extent due to economics and technology.

That would be your dictionary definition of "high end". Us audiophiles have a much different definition.

If the market wanted $7000 Pioneer receivers, Pioneer would be making them (as would Kenwood, Sony, Teac, Yamaha and all the other Japanese consumer electronic corps).

Note that the current economy and technology has not stopped the audiophile companies from continuing to manufacture lots of high end pre/pros.

I've owned/ operated a Pro A/V company for over 17 years now( and in the biz quite a bit more). There are many, many different ways to interpret component ( including Speaker) specifications. It seems lots of snake oil was present in the consumer level for some time ( bi wired, silk covered speaker cables for an example). Hard to find a legitimate spec sheet on just about anything ( kind of like...ever seen a bad resume?...I haven't ).
True, hi performance audio can be quite subjective, as the space (and the end user) also play a vital role. Digital Audio performance has improved dramatically over the last 5-7 years, and I would suggest that most modern recordings are being done using digital equipment, of some sort. With all that being said, Audiophile caliber reproduction is a mixture of science and art ( we ALL hear differently).

Comparing the hobbies? Absolutely, but just to the extent of calling them "hobbies", and from a nostalgia standpoint. Where is analog audio ( or video ) going? That's been gone for awhile now. lots of new stuff that has vastly superior capabilities than what was available in the 70's - 80's ( and earlier of course). I was one of the last holdouts on analog, Studer/ Midas/ etc. recording consoles. Pinball is cool because it is accessible and enjoyed BECAUSE of its functionality ( archaic and mechanical compared to " current" technology).

Some people CAN hear the difference and have passion for it....an amazing gift, and they should get whatever deemed fit for them...not what the spec sheet says....sorry for rambling.....mark

Except for Def tech speakers : o

Ha...agreed...

made in china.

I don't know too many other than those suffering from blind brand loyalty that would choose the Yamaha z11 over the Pioneer Elite SC-09TX.

There's no doubt that they are both considered to be "high-end" receivers and were the flagships of their respective lines but the Pioneer AVR was top of the food chain. Better performance and the build quality of the 80 lb. Pioneer behemoth was superior to the Yamaha. But not surprisingly the Pioneer was over $2,000 more in price too.

There are Ford loyalists out there that would rather have a Pinto than a '69 z/28 Camaro too.

Insane ones but they're out there!

lol!

Fisher Studio Standard's were pretty good consumer receivers. I was an Onkyo guy when they first enterd the US scene in the early '70's. Later I added a separate pair of bridged Hafler amps bought in kit form to save a few bucks but I consider them high end. What do you experts here consider them; like Marantz or something?
For speakers I started out with Polk Model 10's and eventually upgraded to Polk SDA's. I almost bought a set of those huge Polk's like Pinrob posted earlier in this thread. Thank goodness I didn't because there is no way I would have kept them due to the size.

When I started to sell the stuff (didn't turn it on for a couple of years so I said time to sell) I had a couple of guys fighting over the Model 10's at a garage sale, a third guy walks in and offers $100 above my asking price while the two douchebags haggled at $50 & $40 below my asking price. No one wanted my pair of SDA's though.

dude if you cant read the pics I posted and still consider that the pioneer stuff and Yamaha stuff is "high end" then you are in your own world.

Yo Red Herring.

That's not what I said.

I said the SC-09TX blows the Yamaha z11 away.

Hand down.

Not the entire Elite line like you keep spinning it.

Not even the current Elite line.

The Pioneer Elite SC-09TX blows the Yamaha z11 away - both audio and video.

No need to panic though. Your z11 is still a very good receiver.

It's considered a high-end receiver too.

I got rid of that pos z11 after 4 hours of listening.... it could not drive my martin logans I had at the time adequately... which were claritys..

80lbs for a multi channel receiver is not really saying anything when many single channel amps only weigh in at 45

Let me guess. You were so disappointed that you threw the z11 in the back of your Aston Martin and took it right back to Definitive Audio!

ROTFLMAO!!!!

actually it was my Porsche...

Was it a 911?

what other Porsche is there?

That was good. But hopefully it was a 930.