(Topic ID: 267256)

Combo ROM for original MPU boards

By oldschoolbob

3 years ago


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  • 29 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by barakandl
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    #1 3 years ago

    Several companies now make MPU boards with game selection dip switches so you can select different game ROM options. What a great idea.

    But how about a ROM adaptor for original MPU boards with that same dip switch feature?

    Is it possible? Would it be too expensive?

    #2 3 years ago
    Quoted from oldschoolbob:

    Several companies now make MPU boards with game selection dip switches so you can select different game ROM options. What a great idea.
    But how about a ROM adaptor for original MPU boards with that same dip switch feature?
    Is it possible? Would it be too expensive?

    Possible and pretty simple. To get an idea, read the pin coder test roms thread. They discuss how to make a 16x rom selector daughter board

    #3 3 years ago
    Quoted from zacaj:

    read the pin coder test roms thread

    I couldn't find that thread. Do you have a link?

    #4 3 years ago

    @oldschoolbob, it depends how easily plug'n'play you want the solution to be.

    Knowing you, we're purely talking about Bally/Stern MPU boards right?

    The Bally-17/MPU-100 boards have some limitation in the ROM addressing setup so being able to support Bally-35 games requires modifications.

    A board that plugs into a single ROM socket won't do the trick, that is unless the board can be modified to run totally from a single ROM socket - I haven't investigated the schematics if it's possible but this solution isn't plug'n'play. If you wanted to use both existing ROM sockets then there is the question of how the sockets are jumpered (9316 vs 2532 vs 2732 ROM, etc)

    There is the option to create a daughter board that plugs into the CPU socket where you'd have the CPU and ROM on it, but you also need extra logic to control the ROM. I believe this may have been done before.

    Lastly, the solution I've thought about doing in the past is to build a board that plugs onto the upper J5 connector making it the best plug'n'play option - no messing around with MPU board mods but it will require extra logic. An issue with this approach however is the original J5 pin headers are commonly badly tarnished - that pin header needs to be in good condition.

    #5 3 years ago

    First, don’t get the idea that I can something like this – it’s way beyond me. I just wanted to throw it out there to see if it could be manufactured someone. I’m looking at this from a consumer point of view. I think it would be a really neat add-on. It would be nice if it was plug-n-play (like the NVRAM) but I’m sure there will be some jumpers changed (and I wouldn’t mind that). A while back Andrew made a single ROM for my Trident. It worked great but I had to change a couple of jumpers.

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    #6 3 years ago
    Quoted from oldschoolbob:

    First, don’t get the idea that I can something like this

    Why not?

    Technically you could probably make a ROM board up with all the Bally-17 and MPU-100 ROMs that plug into that boards modified U2 socket. It wouldn't need any logic chips just a dip switch bank, some resistors a ROM socket and pins to plug into the MPU boards socket.
    Andrew went into some discussion here which is what zacaj was referring to:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-williams-system-6-in-game-test-roms#post-4542254

    You'd need to modify it to support mapping to a 2732 EPROM and maybe using a larger EPROM so you can fit more games in it.

    Maybe you could try building one of these before delving into designing your own reproduction MPU board

    #7 3 years ago

    Here's the problem with this idea.
    In almost every case; the boards are already hard jumper-ed for the smallest supported EPROM size.

    You have to physically reconfigure the board to use this larger multi-rom... most people wouldn't want to undertake that project just to get roms for multiple games in it because you can't use the other games with a different hardware configuration (playfield).

    That said; I'm happy to be wrong.

    #8 3 years ago
    Quoted from Zitt:

    In almost every case; the boards are already hard jumper-ed for the smallest supported EPROM size.

    Agreed. That's why I originally suggested building a board that plugs onto the upper J5 MPU board connector. You eliminate the onboard ROM socket configuration making it truly plug'n'play.

    #9 3 years ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    Agreed. That's why I originally suggested building a board that plugs onto the upper J5 MPU board connector. You eliminate the onboard ROM socket configuration making it truly plug'n'play.

    That has been done like 20 years ago by a company named twobits.
    Device was called fixit and it was a really neat board with lot of potential, however almost nobody has heard of it i think.
    It was priced right at $70 but unfortunaly the owner would not ship to Europe otherwise i would have bought a dozen. I have bought one through ebay, and i have used it for years and love it.
    2 or 3 years ago Twobits was sold to Gameboards usa, i inquired immediately with them and they ship to Europe but they raised the price to $120 which is too much i think for what it is.

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    #10 3 years ago

    Thankyou @cudabee, looks like that TwoBits FixIt board is still available and currently listed at US$109.

    #11 3 years ago

    It had a nv ram on it, it was the first time i saw it mentioned in a pinball related item.
    It was also very handy for using on mildly corroded boards, since you could skip the complete ram section of the cpu board so these parts could be removed. No jumpers change needed.As said, it was a very clever and convenient board.
    I got a switch testboard with it as well on a seperate kit, if i remember correctly but i never really used that because i already have a bench tester.

    #12 3 years ago

    I contacted them for more information.

    Bob

    #13 3 years ago

    Hm, $109 is still way more than the original $70 which i thought was ok.
    For a bit more you have a complete repro board.

    #14 3 years ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    Technically you could probably make a ROM board up with all the Bally-17 and MPU-100 ROMs that plug into that boards modified U2 socket. It wouldn't need any logic chips just a dip switch bank, some resistors a ROM socket and pins to plug into the MPU boards socket.

    Fine, I’ll make it if you provide a schematic and a parts list. You give me too much credit – remember the Power Supply we built a while back? I could have never built that without everyone’s help.

    I looked over the Test Rom Topic. That is along the lines of what we’re referring to here.

    Quoted from Zitt:

    You have to physically reconfigure the board to use this larger multi-rom... most people wouldn't want to undertake that project just to get roms for multiple games in it because you can't use the other games with a different hardware configuration

    How much reconfiguration would it take? If it’s not much more than what I did to use a single ROM in my Trident, I don’t think it would be a problem – if I can do it anyone can. Especially if you give me instructions and photos.

    I looked into that FixIt board. Plugging into J5 would be fine but that board is way too big. Also too expensive. At that price you’re almost the cost of barakandl’s universal board. I’m envisioning something in the size and cost of NVRAM.

    #15 3 years ago
    Quoted from cudabee:

    That has been done like 20 years ago by a company named twobits.
    Device was called fixit and it was a really neat board with lot of potential, however almost nobody has heard of it i think.
    It was priced right at $70 but unfortunaly the owner would not ship to Europe otherwise i would have bought a dozen. I have bought one through ebay, and i have used it for years and love it.
    2 or 3 years ago Twobits was sold to Gameboards usa, i inquired immediately with them and they ship to Europe but they raised the price to $120 which is too much i think for what it is.[quoted image]

    I have one of those & I had to get it via eaby too & use a parcel forwarding service to get it to Australia.

    They are quite handy, I used it a few times.

    Twobits were also the first to make the -35 repro MPUs I think, I have one of those MPUs as well.

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    #16 3 years ago

    Joydivision, Do you have a photo of the FixIt installed on a board?

    Thanks

    Bob

    #17 3 years ago
    Quoted from oldschoolbob:

    Joydivision, Do you have a photo of the FixIt installed on a board?
    Thanks
    Bob

    Here it is plugged into J5 in a working -17 mpu.
    I switched the Fixit to test mode & the Fixit verified the RAM & ROMS were working. I removed a ROM & then the 5101 RAM & it failed the test on both. I really didn’t think these worked on a -17 as well as a -35 as pins 33 & 34 are not present on a -17. Seemed to work.
    The available tests are for ROMS, RAM & the reset section only. Which typically covers most of the common faults with these MPUs.
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    #18 3 years ago
    Quoted from oldschoolbob:

    Fine, I’ll make it if you provide a schematic and a parts list.

    If you're willing to wait...
    I'll mock up a proto when I get the parts and some free time and get back to you.

    #19 3 years ago

    That FixIt board really takes up a lot of real-estate on the MPU. And it’s way overkill for what I have in mind. The way I understand it, it runs diagnostics, it eliminates the RAM, the ROMs, the reset circuit, and the battery. And doesn’t that Zero Power Ram contain a battery?

    What I’m thinking is a simple board that plugs into U2 socket, change a couple of jumpers and you have a board that can be used in any Bally/Stern game by setting a few switches.

    Quench, let me know if I can do anything to help.

    Thanks

    Bob

    #20 3 years ago

    It seems much simpler to make a socket for the CPU than using U2, then you don't need to make any modifications for any boards.

    #21 3 years ago
    Quoted from oldschoolbob:

    The way I understand it, it runs diagnostics, it eliminates the RAM, the ROMs, the reset circuit, and the battery.

    Yes, main use really is to check & eliminate problems associated with the reset circuit, ROMS or ROM sockets on a locked board. Remembering the design of these boards are more than 20 years old, so I guess that's why the thing is so big.

    #22 3 years ago

    With the cost of replacement boards it seems prohibitive. I like the weebly boards. Great customer service and reasonable. These old bally boards aee pretty old and often are unreliable due to alakaline issues.

    #23 3 years ago

    zacaj, I just mentioned the U2 because that’s what I thought it would be the logical place (what do I know?). If you say the U9 would be simpler I’m all for it.

    I’m no electronics expert; I’m just throwing out ideas hoping someone more knowledgeable will pick up on it.

    I agree with pinballplus the replacement boards would be hard to compete with but wouldn’t it be neat to bring some of those old boards back to modern standards. We’ve got the NVRAM now we just need combo ROMs. There’s still a ton of good working old boards out there.

    #24 3 years ago

    U2/U6 only have a maximum of 12 address lines (A0-A11) going to them, making the maximum amount of Rom that can go there 4k. Any game that uses 3x2716, 2x2732, 4x2716 can't fit in a single rom that will also fit in u2/u6.

    The processor chip U9 has all 16 address lines coming from it, so that socket can address the entire address range, but for stock roms you only use the signals A0-A11, A12, and A14.

    #25 3 years ago

    The fixit is great, as long as J5 was in good shape you could get really roached boards back up and running for $70.

    #26 3 years ago

    Personally I like to have the original ROMs on replacement MPUs. I actually avoid boards with DIP switch selection of the games whenever possible. Simple reason for this in there are a lot of update ROMs floating around with bug fixes, 7-digit displays, free play, etc that are not in the original ROMs.

    #27 3 years ago
    Quoted from John_I:

    Personally I like to have the original ROMs on replacement MPUs. I actually avoid boards with DIP switch selection of the games whenever possible. Simple reason for this in there are a lot of update ROMs floating around with bug fixes, 7-digit displays, free play, etc that are not in the original ROMs.

    Weebly has the variants in his combo rom, and is actively in touch with at least 2 of the people that actually write these roms (or have clearinghouses of the mods archived for inclusion)

    Alltek refuses to add them although he does have some free play variants there (for bally) as well as (probably by mistake!) a couple of modified ones.

    #28 3 years ago
    Quoted from slochar:

    Weebly has the variants in his combo rom, and is actively in touch with at least 2 of the people that actually write these roms (or have clearinghouses of the mods archived for inclusion)

    Awesome. Nice to know.

    #29 3 years ago

    I think the U9 module eprom enable could be as simple as this. NAND chip 74HCT00 and you shouldnt need any pull up resistors on the daughter board.

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    For the EPROM to make combining roms go in numeric U1, U2, U5, U6 order, EPROM typical A12 is wired to CPU A11 and EPROM A11 gets wired to CPU A14. /CE is grounded. Then wire up the rest of the address pins used typically on the MPU EPROM. The left over upper most address blocks route to a dip switch with pull up resistors so when the switch is closed that address is grounded. When the switch is open the address is pulled high. That will let you select 64K chunks of ROM in a bigger chip.

    Build the 7400 NAND, EPROM socket, CPU socket, and dip switch on a proto board. Use socket mating headers to plug into the U9 socket.

    ebay.com link: 10 pcs US 40 Pin Single Row 2 54mm Round Male Header M114 connector gold plated

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