ColorDMD - LCD versus LED?

(Topic ID: 171786)

ColorDMD - LCD versus LED?


By goatdan

1 year ago



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#201 1 year ago

Put LED version of ColorDMD in about a month ago on SMVE. Been on the fence between LCD and LED but liked what I saw of the LED version on various games at Expo in October.

The form-factor fits so much better than the LCD on newer Sterns. The LED fits right in where the DMD was not set back from the front of the display like the LCD version.

Super bright! The colors are saturated.
Not sold on keeping it though. No matter how I adjust it it seems some of the detail is missing.

I have the contrast turned way down (2/3 range out of 9) to get some of the darker features of the graphics but seems to make the overall image too dark. If I pump up the contrast above 3, the graphics seem to get washed out. I've tried every combo of brightness & contrast.

Finally settled on brightness in the 7/8/9 range and contrast in the 2/3 range. To get results I like.

Also put on a DMD glare film which seemed to help.

I'll try it out for a while longer, move it to another game, but I may be listing on pinside soon and swapping it for out the LCD version.

Like other's have said, pictures are hard to get right and don't do justice to seeing it in-person. Pictures also show some scan artifacts (brigher lines) that you don't see in person.

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#202 1 year ago

I don't like the led version. Too pinpoint. My family prefers it due to the brightness tho

#203 1 year ago
Quoted from zene10:

Put LCD version of ColorDMD in about a month ago on SMVE. Been on the fence between LCD and LED but liked what I saw of the LCD version on various games at Expo in October.
The form-factor fits so much better than the LCD on newer Sterns. The LED fits right in where the DMD was not set back from the front of the display like the LCD version.
Super bright! The colors are saturated.
Not sold on keeping it though. No matter how I adjust it it seems some of the detail is missing.
I have the contrast turned way down (2/3 range out of 9) to get some of the darker features of the graphics but seems to make the overall image too dark. If I pump up the contrast above 3, the graphics seem to get washed out. I've tried every combo of brightness & contrast.
Finally settled on brightness in the 7/8/9 range and contrast in the 2/3 range. To get results I like.
Also put on a DMD glare film which seemed to help.
I'll try it out for a while longer, move it to another game, but I may be listing on pinside soon and swapping it for out the LCD version.
Like other's have said, pictures are hard to get right and don't do justice to seeing it in-person. Pictures also show some scan artifacts (brigher lines) that you don't see in person.

Your post got me confused... You're talking about the LED version, right?

#204 1 year ago
Quoted from AlexSMendes:

Your post got me confused... You're talking about the LED version, right?

Had me confused as well.
Seems he has a couple of LCD's where it should read LED at the beginning.

#205 1 year ago
Quoted from Arcade:

They are both great.
However, and this may just be me. On the LED version I saw on an X-Men, the blues and to some extent the red appeared blurry to my eye. Almost as it were creating a halo effect around the object or score.
I do not see this on the LCD version.

This... Especially in attract mode the red and blue text make me think I need glasses.

After ordering a LCD for met I decided to try a LED in SM.

The problem for me is the LED dots are too small - piercing. Like super sharp pencil tips pointing at you. This highlights the gap between the LEDs. Plus as previously mentioned there is a rainbow halo from each dot. Some of the art on the LED isn't too bad with this, but other scenes are not so great. The brightness is just too much, even turned down. I have already ordered a LCD to replace it with and will be sending the LED back, unfortunately.

The Met Prem with the LCD is set to hires mode and is sitting next to a POTC with the original amber DMD which is next to a SMVE with the color LED and finally a ST with the original Stern red LED. My favorites are the LCD on hires following by the good old fashioned amber DMD, followed by the color LED and finally the stern red LED. Personally, I don't like the stern red LED at all. Since colordmd doesn't have a rom for ST yet (ever?) I wish I could put an amber DMD in ST just to see what it would look like. The temptation is there to keep the color LED and reset it to stock to use in ST, but I am not going to spend $400 for a display just to have single different color. If Randy ever manages to get a colorized rom for ST I will be all over it.

#206 1 year ago

I don't see the rainbow effect or have any issue with the size of the dots on the LED display at all but I understand that different people see things differently.

#207 1 year ago
Quoted from Radius118:

Since colordmd doesn't have a rom for ST yet (ever?) I wish I could put an amber DMD in ST just to see what it would look like.

Does Stern make red DMDs? I thought they use amber with a red film. They did at some point but maybe I have the timeline switched.

I like others' suggestions earlier to put a grey film in front of the ColorDMD to cut down on piercing glow of the LEDs. I haven't seen the LED DMD in person but I have seen blue LED digital displays in a Bally and I had trouble reading the numbers because of the brightness. A grey gel would fix that problem I think.

#208 1 year ago

72ddb03706e3f32452a4f32eab4f4923 (resized).jpg

#209 1 year ago
Quoted from dmbjunky:

Does Stern make red DMDs? I thought they use amber with a red film. They did at some point but maybe I have the timeline switched.
I like others' suggestions earlier to put a grey film in front of the ColorDMD to cut down on piercing glow of the LEDs. I haven't seen the LED DMD in person but I have seen blue LED digital displays in a Bally and I had trouble reading the numbers because of the brightness. A grey gel would fix that problem I think.

I don't know about whether stern used amber dmds with a red filter. All I know is the Stern games I currently have that came with a red LED DMD are actually red LEDs. But they also use a red filter over the display to diffuse the output a bit and make it blend in better cause the red dmd without the red filter is horribly bad.

I read about other's experience with the filters to help cut down on the harshness from the LED and I thought about experimenting with that. I just don't want to buy 87 different gels to try to make something work that I just don't like that much to start with. I'd rather just send it back and install a LCD in hires mode which I DO like.

#210 1 year ago

there are 3 problems with the ColorDMD LED version in my opinion

- the first is that the face of the panel appears to be a glossy black in between the discreet 4096 LEDs and they catch a lot of both ambient light as well as anything that is thrown off of the playfield (like the sling spotlights that are directed up field towards the back box)
- the second is that the LEDs themselves do not have any sort of diffuser on them, but rather a crystal clear window. if they had a milky-white diffuser, it would eliminate a lot of harshness that people are talking about (however, I have not seen any P2.5 panels that have something like this (see image below)
LEDs w- diffuser (resized).jpg
- and finally, the elements themselves seem to be somewhat of a cross between what's known and an "indoor" and "outdoor" display panel. on an outdoor panel, the elements are smaller with a lot of black or "dead" space between them. on an indoor panel, the elements are larger with less black or dead space
outdoor panel spacingindoor panel spacing

this semi-outdoor effect means that it's more like a DOTS mini mode, rather than the DOTS or DOTS XL modes that are selectable options on the LCD ColorDMD panels.

I'm going to try and find some sort of diffuser panel to install in front of the LED panels and see if that helps with mine

#211 1 year ago
Quoted from j_m_:

there are 3 problems with the ColorDMD LED version in my opinion
- the first is that the face of the panel appears to be a glossy black in between the discreet 4096 LEDs and they catch a lot of both ambient light as well as anything that is thrown off of the playfield (like the sling spotlights that are directed up field towards the back box)
- the second is that the LEDs themselves do not have any sort of diffuser on them, but rather a crystal clear window. if they had a milky-white diffuser, it would eliminate a lot of harshness that people are talking about (however, I have not seen any P2.5 panels that have something like this (see image below)

- and finally, the elements themselves seem to be somewhat of a cross between what's known and an "indoor" and "outdoor" display panel. on an outdoor panel, the elements are smaller with a lot of black or "dead" space between them. on an indoor panel, the elements are larger with less black or dead space

this semi-outdoor effect means that it's more like a DOTS mini mode, rather than the DOTS or DOTS XL modes that are selectable options on the LCD ColorDMD panels.
I'm going to try and find some sort of diffuser panel to install in front of the LED panels and see if that helps with mine

These are indoor panels. The glossiness is due to reflections from the clear windows themselves as opposed to the black package or pcb. They are individually packaged RGB LEDs which requires three small LEDs to fit within the same area normally used by a single monochrome LED. The package size is 2mmx2mm and the board spacing is 2.5mm. The packages are virtually butted up against one another.

The extra black space is due to the smaller LEDs and the individual packaging (versus the 8x8 co-packaged monochrome LED modules). The issue is not as obvious on larger RGB LED displays where the ratio of LED to package size is larger.

The vendors of these panels however have seem to solved the problem with misalignment between the 8x8 packages which plagued earlier monochrome LED screens.

#212 1 year ago
Quoted from j_m_:

there are 3 problems with the ColorDMD LED version in my opinion
- the first is that the face of the panel appears to be a glossy black in between the discreet 4096 LEDs and they catch a lot of both ambient light as well as anything that is thrown off of the playfield (like the sling spotlights that are directed up field towards the back box)
- the second is that the LEDs themselves do not have any sort of diffuser on them, but rather a crystal clear window. if they had a milky-white diffuser, it would eliminate a lot of harshness that people are talking about (however, I have not seen any P2.5 panels that have something like this (see image below)

<snip>

this semi-outdoor effect means that it's more like a DOTS mini mode, rather than the DOTS or DOTS XL modes that are selectable options on the LCD ColorDMD panels.
I'm going to try and find some sort of diffuser panel to install in front of the LED panels and see if that helps with mine

I bought the LED one for my Shadow, but haven't had a change to install it yet (started tearing it down to clean it up). However, I noticed when looking at the panel that it didn't have the LED diffusers (as you mentioned). In the back of my mind I was thinking about it, but figured I'd wait until I got it installed to see how I felt about it. Since you've brought this back into fore of my thoughts I was thinking that maybe I (or anyone) could try printing the DMD hole pattern with larger holes on a semi-transparent vellum paper or something to get closer to the DotsXL look...?

If you figure something out, please post. Otherwise I can try in a month or so when I get my machine back together..

#213 1 year ago
Quoted from AlexSMendes:

Your post got me confused... You're talking about the LED version, right?

Yes, meant LED. Corrected text in original post. Sorry for the confusion.

#215 1 year ago
Quoted from Lamprey:

I bought the LED one for my Shadow, but haven't had a change to install it yet (started tearing it down to clean it up). However, I noticed when looking at the panel that it didn't have the LED diffusers (as you mentioned). In the back of my mind I was thinking about it, but figured I'd wait until I got it installed to see how I felt about it. Since you've brought this back into fore of my thoughts I was thinking that maybe I (or anyone) could try printing the DMD hole pattern with larger holes on a semi-transparent vellum paper or something to get closer to the DotsXL look...?
If you figure something out, please post. Otherwise I can try in a month or so when I get my machine back together..

I have LED on Shadow and LCD on Met.

The brighter vibrant colors on Shadow are so much better than washed out colors on Met's LCD.

I do not find the complaints about the LED being too piercing or too much black space an issue for me at all. I don't play my games in a dark room though.

I was concerned it might be an issue, but I really don't see it. The LCD washed out colors bug me more.

Brightness and color vibrancy is the outstanding difference to me. The Shadow is much improved with the LED.

I'm convinced it just depends on the individual and the game.

#216 1 year ago
Quoted from RTS:

I have LED on Shadow and LCD on Met.
The brighter vibrant colors on Shadow are so much better than washed out colors on Met's LCD.
I do not find the complaints about the LED being too piercing or too much black space an issue for me at all. I don't play my games in a dark room though.
I was concerned it might be an issue, but I really don't see it. The LCD washed out colors bug me more.
Brightness and color vibrancy is the outstanding difference to me. The Shadow is much improved with the LED.
I'm convinced it just depends on the individual and the game.

Agreed. It's a matter of taste.

A friend has an LCD on his TSPP, with upscaling, which makes it look more like the TV animation. LED would not work on that game as well.

I have LED on SMVE and LCD on MET. LCD does look washed out comparitively.
I do wish the LED had bigger dots though. I like the look of the adjustable (larger) LCD dots compared to the LED.

Side by side, guests are instantly drawn to the bright LED over the LCD.

#217 1 year ago

I was anti-LED but just got back from playing a TRON with the LED display and its awesome for that game! I'm sure its going to be a matter of fitting the game.. but for TRON it's a 'must have'. Looks amazing

#218 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I was anti-LED but just got back from playing a TRON with the LED display and its awesome for that game! I'm sure its going to be a matter of fitting the game.. but for TRON it's a 'must have'. Looks amazing

Yeah I just bought and installed the LED on my Tron...it's a little too dark with stock settings, but just bumping up the contrast from 5 to 7 makes it SING. It's crazy gorgeous, and the brighter/more saturated colors make the video footage look better, makes the Recognizers look beautiful, overall it just makes all the colors more "Trony". For instance, the oranges looked a bit brown on the LCD, but are nice and orange on the LED.

I turned on my Iron Man next to Tron, afraid I'd now hate the LCD and wanna switch all my games...thankfully, I still think it looks good - I'm gonna leave the others as LCD for the time being....but I really like the LED display and highly recommend it to anyone who likes the classic DMD look/feel, but in color!

#219 1 year ago

The colorLCD on my Metallica is a bit washed out looking with the bright speaker insert lighting and general flashiness of the game. I'm thinking that the colorLED would be a better fit there, plenty bright enough and the "cooler" color temps being a good fit for this game.

Then I'd like to move my colorLCD over to my IJ, where it being somewhat dimmer and warmer color temp would suit that game better.

Anyone put a colorLED into a Metallica yet? Thoughts?

#220 1 year ago

Just fitted a colour LED to my Creature It looks awesome nice and bright zero regrets here

#221 1 year ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Anyone put a colorLED into a Metallica yet? Thoughts?

Yes and the colors are great. Just too pinpoint for me

#222 1 year ago

I think Metallica has one of the best color jobs but I prefer the hires mode for it.

#223 1 year ago
Quoted from Erik:

Yes and the colors are great. Just too pinpoint for me

Could post a few pics, or maybe a video of it?

#224 1 year ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Could post a few pics, or maybe a video of it?

The unfortunate thing with LED is that it's really hard to photograph/video to show the true depth of the color. I tried to take some video of my Tron with LED, but deep blue turns into light blue on my phone's camera.

#225 1 year ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Could post a few pics, or maybe a video of it?

I took a pic here but my phone dimmed it to the point that it doesn't at all represent the brightness at all I could get more but guessing similar results. it is very bright tho. Ive owned lcds and its much brighter.

20161130_191819 (resized).jpg

#226 1 year ago
Quoted from Erik:

I took a pic here but my phone dimmed it to the point that it doesn't at all represent the brightness at all I could get more but guessing similar results. it is very bright tho. Ive owned lcds and its much brighter.

Thx! I understand re:brightness not reflected in pics. I'm actually trying to visualize what the "too pinpoint" comment means and thought a few pics would help.

I use the Big Dots mode on the LCD. Is the LED like that?

(Looks good from what I can tell in your pic).

EDIT>> just noticed your Elf on a Sparky!

#227 1 year ago

I'll try a couple more pics but doubt they're going to look much different due to the camera. By pinpoint I mean they're tiny points of light. Some colors are more pinpoint than others.

Like I said tho, my family much prefers the led. Suspect it's entirely subjective.

#228 1 year ago

I think I would prefer a grey tinted gel in front of the LED to get rid of seeing the dots that aren't lit.

#229 1 year ago

LED installedPOTC (resized).jpg

#230 1 year ago

LCD Sigma installed
PM2 (resized).png

#231 1 year ago
Quoted from Erik:

I took a pic here but my phone dimmed it to the point that it doesn't at all represent the brightness at all I could get more but guessing similar results. it is very bright tho. Ive owned lcds and its much brighter.

the #2 looks cut off on your DMD (high score #2) and the zero in the actual score.

#232 1 year ago
Quoted from freddy:

the #2 looks cut off on your DMD (high score #2) and the zero in the actual score.

I also noticed that but I thought that maybe it was an animation going on....

#233 1 year ago

I prefer the LCD in Hires for most of my dmds. But this is just a preference. The led version looks nice as well. You really cant lose with either version of color.

-1
#234 1 year ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Thx! I understand re:brightness not reflected in pics. I'm actually trying to visualize what the "too pinpoint" comment means and thought a few pics would help.
I use the Big Dots mode on the LCD. Is the LED like that?
(Looks good from what I can tell in your pic).
EDIT>> just noticed your Elf on a Sparky!

Ok here's a couple more from last night. Keep in mind these don't accurately represent the brightness. I've tried every brightness and contrast combination.

The size of the dot depends on how much of an individual led is lit. So the white dots in the Stern logo are big. The red dots are small.

20161208_193638.jpg

Red is probably the most noticeable. Browns also. Look at the red in Sparky's eyes and his hair.

20161208_193656.jpg

#235 1 year ago

I just looked at my MET Pro with the lcd and my T3 with the LED. The unlit leds are turned off so they are black but the pf light reflection lights up the face of the leds so they look white, so the blacks of the led version actually look pretty bad. The blacks of the lcd are totally black and look MUCH better. For that reason alone I'm gonna go with a LCD for Avatar.

#236 1 year ago

Has anyone compared the LCD to LED in IM?

#237 1 year ago

Just installed LED in TAF last night and am very happy with how it looks.

#238 1 year ago
Quoted from MustangPaul:

I just looked at my MET Pro with the lcd and my T3 with the LED. The unlit leds are turned off so they are black but the pf light reflection lights up the face of the leds so they look white, so the blacks of the led version actually look pretty bad. The blacks of the lcd are totally black and look MUCH better. For that reason alone I'm gonna go with a LCD for Avatar.

Interesting. I have Glare Guards on my games ...they used to be to keep DMD reflection off the glass....now I use them to keep playfield light reflection off the ColorDMD. So, if you're worried about light on the display, try a Glare Guard!

#239 1 year ago
Quoted from dmbjunky:

I think I would prefer a grey tinted gel in front of the LED to get rid of seeing the dots that aren't lit.

I don't mind seeing the unlit dots, as that's how standard DMDs look!

#240 1 year ago
Quoted from Erik:

Ok here's a couple more from last night. Keep in mind these don't accurately represent the brightness. I've tried every brightness and contrast combination.
The size of the dot depends on how much of an individual led is lit. So the white dots in the Stern logo are big. The red dots are small.

Red is probably the most noticeable. Browns also. Look at the red in Sparky's eyes and his hair.

Thanks for the pics, I see what you mean now. Still looks good to me, I think I'm convinced to try one in Metallica.

1 week later
#241 1 year ago

Anyone seen one of the ColorDMD Led diplays in a LotR? If so, can you say how it compares to the LCD?

I guess it's a bit late, but i just ordered one as an xmas gift for myself. I figure if it just doesn't look as good, i can maybe swap it for the LCD in my WH2O. Seems from what I've read here that the Led is likely to look good in WH2O at least.

#242 1 year ago
Quoted from AlexSMendes:

I also noticed that but I thought that maybe it was an animation going on....

your avatars says #1 not #2

#243 1 year ago
Quoted from freddy:

your avatars says #1 not #2

OK, changed it... Better now?

#244 1 year ago
Quoted from nman:

Anyone seen one of the ColorDMD Led diplays in a LotR? If so, can you say how it compares to the LCD?
I guess it's a bit late, but i just ordered one as an xmas gift for myself. I figure if it just doesn't look as good, i can maybe swap it for the LCD in my WH2O. Seems from what I've read here that the Led is likely to look good in WH2O at least.

report back which looks better in the LOTR -LED or LCD

#245 1 year ago

I have seen both the LED and LCD. When I first saw the colorDMD it was the LCD in high res mode on a lotr. I thought it looked horrible. I mistakenly thought that was the only configuration for the dmd. I put off purchasing one for years based on that initial experiance.

I just installed a led unit in my LOTR and couldn't be happier!

One of the reasons that i chose the led is that I like the fit of the led unit. It feels more like a product that is designed as a dmd replacement and less like a hack.

#246 1 year ago
Quoted from bonanza:

report back which looks better in the LOTR -LED or LCD

I've tried both, I'm sticking with LED. The LCD was just not bright enough to match the LEDs on the playfield.

#247 1 year ago
Quoted from gremlinuo:

One of the reasons that i chose the led is that I like the fit of the led unit. It feels more like a product that is designed as a dmd replacement and less like a hack.

+1

#248 1 year ago

I had some "normal" people over (non pin peeps) ...and one girl was absolutely mesmerized by the LED display I put in Tron. It's surrounded by games with LCD ColorDMDs and a Hobbit ...but the LED Tron had her interest. She said "this is so beautiful...make it do cool things" lol...so, I played while she watched the screen...she thought it was the greatest thing ever.

On the other hand - a friend of mine who just has one game (Popeye) wanted to buy a ColorDMD for his game - I showed him the options and he wanted LCD (on DotsXL) ...he liked the the LCD look more.

At the end of the day, they're both awesome.

#249 1 year ago

So anyone got a film to go over an LED that they really think helps? And a pointer on where to buy?

I've had ColorDMD in a bunch of games and I'm sure I've just gotten used to it, but so far I like it better by a tad than the LED I just put in my TronLE. That's based on purely comparing the look of the display itself (usually like XL mode on the ColorDMD). The LED now seems a tad harsh to me, even playing with contrast and brightness. I feel like a physical diffuser might help.

But I'm going to keep the LED in the TronLE *and* convert a colorDMD in my Metallica to LED because of the form factor. I have animated backbox kits in both machines and the LCD creates a shadow on the bottom 3/4" of the back glass that's very obvious. It's a bit smaller and a LOT less obvious on IronMan simply because of the backglass art, so I'm leaving that one DMD.

But on my other Bally/Williams games where the backbox art isn't compromised, I'll be staying DMD.

--Donnie

#250 1 year ago

I'm sure it's been covered- but do the new LEDs use less power than the LCD (or the same?)-- I've been hedging on adding to my STTNG that's running a blue XPin LED that works great....I've read about STTNG resets with the LCD so I returned mine before I installed it.

I'm running color LCDs in TOM, TZ with no issues.....

Anyone have any input? - or an LED they don't like? I may be buyin' !

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