COLD CASE FILES: Aquarius Kickout Hole Scoring

(Topic ID: 216984)

COLD CASE FILES: Aquarius Kickout Hole Scoring


By currieddog

9 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 60 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 82 days ago by currieddog
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 10 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

0Shangri La-my-Extraball-Relay (resized).jpg
0Capersville-Work-01 (resized).jpg
0Surf-Champ-Work-30 (resized).jpg
0Surf-Champ-Work-29 (resized).jpg
0Shangri-La-tricky-Solution-Save (resized).jpg
0Aquarius-Work-05 (resized).jpg
0Aquarius-Work-04 (resized).jpg
0Aquarius-Work-03 (resized).jpg
0Aquarius-Work-01b (resized).jpg
Pinball (resized).png

There are 60 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 9 months ago

OK, thought I'd re-visit this because it's still happening and I have been all over this thing. Scoring is totally erratic on the higher score kickouts, and can be different in the short time it takes to land in one, hit a pop bumper, and go back in the same hole.

Please take a moment to check the original post, with schematic, to see what's been gone thru: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/re-open-gottlieb-aquarius-100s-scoring-problem#post-4275105

Thanks!

#2 9 months ago

Hi Dan,

(1) Is there any pattern to the erratic scoring?
(2) Does it score too much?
(3) Does it score too little?
(4) Which hole or holes have the erratic scoring problem?

If you'd like a phone call, PM me some contact information.

#3 9 months ago

Hi currieddog
I do not know "Aquarius" --- I do not understand the text "SPOTS*** lit numbers" written below the Eject-Holes.
SPOTS*** - I looked up in a dictionnary - but the german translations offered by the dictionnary do not help me understanding.
Here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=79&picno=12603 (to match with the schematics) I call the leftmost Eject-Hole: "B" - towards right then come "C,D,E,F" - above the "D" is lit the small number "4" (and down on the playfield the "4" is also lit).

A problem of me understanding: Whenever the ball rolls into "B" or "C" or "D" or "E" or "F" --- everytime You get 100 or 200 or 300 points according to text below ? Is this assumption correct ?
A problem of me understanding: The first time the ball rolls into an Eject-Hole - (simply) the not-yet-lighted small numbers above this Eject-Hole will be lighted and stay lighted for the rest of the life of the ball ? Is this assumption correct ?

To Your post-1 --- scoring is totally erratic. The schematics tells me: "Motor is made running - turning 120 degrees - within this turn of 120 degrees the motor-switch-1A actuates five times. Matching with one of these five closing: motor-2C closes at the same time.
Matching with one of these five closing: motor-3B closes at the same time.
Matching with one of these five closing: motor-1B closes at the same time.
IF (if, if) the motor is not truely in Home-Position when the feature starts happening: Some of the actuating cannot happen (motor is already beyond the position).
Your motor has THREE Home-Positions - has THREE sets of "actuating five times motor-1A" has THREE sets of actuating motor-2C, motor-3B, motor-1B. IF (if, if) there is some difference in these alpha, beta, gamma units (every 120 degrees is the next unit alpha, beta, gamma): Could cause strange fault.

I would mark (a stripe of tape or a drop of paint) ONE of the three Home-Positions. Then do several tests with an (always the same) Eject-Hole --- ALWAYS for the next test: The motor must be in the "marked Home-Position". Greetings Rolf

#4 9 months ago

Hi Howard & Rolf - Howard, in answer to your questions: 1. no pattern 2. never too much 3. frequently scores too little 4. B/100 = always correct score, C/200 = usually correct, D-E-F/300 = rarely correct; anywhere from 100-300, with 200 probably being most common. Rolf, all lights are lit, both at targets and kickouts, to start and go off as hit or landed in. They always work correctly. Getting all lites off sets up Special. Targets always score 50 when hit, lit or not. Let me check the "home" motor test.

#5 9 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

I would mark (a stripe of tape or a drop of paint) ONE of the three Home-Positions. Then do several tests with an (always the same) Eject-Hole --- ALWAYS for the next test: The motor must be in the "marked Home-Position".

Still no pattern, Rolf. 1st home position scored 300 for F, as it should, then next 2 pos. scored 200, then original 1st home position scored 200, and did the same on the 3rd test.

#6 9 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

(1) Is there any pattern to the erratic scoring?
(2) Does it score too much?
(3) Does it score too little?
(4) Which hole or holes have the erratic scoring problem?

Quoted from currieddog:

1. no pattern 2. never too much 3. frequently scores too little 4. B/100 = always correct score, C/200 = usually correct, D-E-F/300 = rarely correct; anywhere from 100-300, with 200 probably being most common.

Can you connect a voltmeter or one of Rolf's test lights to the Sequence Series (P) relay and see how many times it activates when points are missing?

#7 9 months ago

I did try the test lights and it's hard to tell, but I believe that P is working correctly. I don't have a voltmeter. Also did the lights on L, and again, hard to tell but I think it's right.

#8 9 months ago

Hi Howard
for sure You wanted to say " SteveFury 's Test-Light (propagated by Rolf) ".
Hi currieddog
the leftmost ("B") should make the P-Series-Relay to pull-in ONCE - the "C" should make the P-Series-Relay to pull-in TWICE and the "D E F" should make the P-Series-Relay to pull-in THREE times. For every time the P-Relay pulls-in: 100 points must be given to the Score-Drums. So HowardR 's question is good - (AAA) does the P-Relay pulls-in exactly as many times needed (and the fault is in "adding the some hundred points to the Score-Drums" --- or is (BBB) the fault in "P-Relay does not pull-in the correct amount (1 or 2 or 3) (((scoring works but when the P-Relay is faulty ...)
And to determine - is it AAA or BBB - the SteveFury Test-Light mounted parallel to Coil on P-Relay is good (((something I do not know: Does such Test-Light hooked on an Series-Relay work - means does the Series-Relay work with the hooked-on Test-Light (?)). Greetings Rolf

#9 9 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

I did try the test lights and it's hard to tell, but I believe that P is working correctly. I don't have a voltmeter. Also did the lights on L, and again, hard to tell but I think it's right.

If the 100 Point (L) relay is working right then you shouldn't need anything from us. Figure out why L isn't adding 100.

Pinball (resized).png

#10 9 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

for sure You wanted to say " SteveFury 's Test-Light (propagated by Rolf) ".

It's practically yours now, Rolf!

I'm quite almost 100% certain that P is working correctly. I actually bought a new coil for it, before realizing that a fairly new one was already in.

This, as I noted in the original post, has the feel of a "floating contact," and we/Rolf actually tracked one down on the L relay early on, which did help but didn't solve it. I have crimped every contact that is remotely involved in scoring though.

#11 9 months ago

Hi currieddog
I show an old JPG --- added: Test-Light(s). The fault "not getting the right amount of points onto the score-drums - either AAA-1 "fault is in the connection L-Relay to Sore-Drum" --- or AAA-2 "fault is in the connection P-Relay to L-Relay" --- or "BBB fault is in activating the P-Relay the many times needed but not correct done". The Test-Lights in the JPG are all to the question "BBB or not BBB" --- "green testlight" must light-up always five times when the motor makes a turn of 120 degrees. "red, blue, brown testlights" must light-up ONCE in a turn of 120 degrees (motor). "yellow Testlight" must light-up the many times needed when the feature works correctly.

HowardR lately came-up with an good idea (and it works - used in an pinside-topic) --- a Jumper-Wire or an testlight has on one side an "Safety-Pin" mounted. We insert (almost parallel to the running wire) - insert the pin through the fabric-insulation - pin gets into contact with wire inside the insulation. A very good way when there is no room for to clip-on an gator-clip --- in here the wires Score-Motor-1A, -2C, -3B, -1B are candidates for "Safety-pin trick hook on". Greetings Rolf

0Aquarius-Work-01b (resized).jpg

#12 9 months ago

Thanks Rolf. Will run tests later.

#13 9 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

HowardR lately came-up with an good idea (and it works - used in an pinside-topic) --- a Jumper-Wire or an testlight has on one side an "Safety-Pin" mounted. We insert (almost parallel to the running wire) - insert the pin through the fabric-insulation - pin gets into contact with wire inside the insulation. A very good way when there is no room for to clip-on an gator-clip ---

Wasn't that a broken wire test, although I can it being useful as mentioned.

Any rate, all lights showing correct number, except the brown coming from 2C, which always flashes 3x.

#14 9 months ago

Hi currieddog
this I remember: Howard came up in a topic with his "Safety Pin helper" --- I was fascinated and some time later I suggested in another topic "hey - want to try HowardR 's Safety pin helper". And in this "another topic" the OP did try and the Safety pin worked and helped.

Your tests with the Test-Light --- "brown" / "motor-2C" did not show what we expect --- hmm, "brown is motor-1B" and "motor-2c is red" - I am confused.
The motor-1A, green closes five times - the red,blue,brown close at a time - then current can pass - once on red - once on blue - once on brown. Whatever switch it is: Have a good look at. When it would flash FIVE times then the easy / simple answer would be: THIS switch is faulty always closed --- but only THREE times closing hints on "very tight adjusted" switch. Greetings Rolf

#15 9 months ago

My mistake on color; it was red, and 2C.

#16 9 months ago

Hi currieddog. There is a very common (yet incorrect) term around here that I considered factual of "a coil either works or it does not", which I then in my pinball experience found to be incorrect when my 1962 Williams Vagabond had a 10 point score reel coil was burnt just enough to sever the connection inside of the coil, and due to the crazy vibration, it was arcing internally and allowing the coil to work sometimes, but not all, and rather than meaning days or months apart this sometimes was within 2-second 50 point pulses. Seriously, that frequent. I would get like 30 points out of the 50, or 10, or 20, whatever. No rhyme or reason.

I wonder if you may be experiencing a "freak" issue of the same thing.

I have an idea in mind that can diagnose both THIS problem and MANY others, including nearly all functions within the score reel.

You should go out and buy a cheap ANALOG multimeter, and hook it to the two lugs on the score reel. Honestly at this point before going any further you need to verify if it is your score reel that is not receiving the correct instructions from the rest of the machine, or if the machine is telling the reel to do the correct thing and it is failing to do so. An analog multimeter (in contrast to a digital) uses an old-school meter (they still make modern ones) which you can watch with your eyes which allows you to see quick pulses with your own two eyes. In theory a digital multimeter might do the same if the signal was long enough for it to process, but would be very easy (or even not impossible) to miss especially when it measures every voltage between 0 and 30 on the way there as it rises and drops, especially with 5 pulses instead of 1. So that is out the window and using one of those would give you the worst results known to man and get us nowhere. Analog meter it is!

----

OR:

As described in my EM repair manual, I actually had a similar issue to this yet again except on a ball-count unit (which also requires many pulses) on my 1969 Gottlieb Skipper. I invented a little procedure that goes a little something like this. In hindsight, I think I invented this earlier on my exact Vagabond problem mentioned above, so I guess I used it to fix that too! I hope it helps you well. Instead of using an analog multimeter (which I don't own), I simply hooked an alligator clip test lead up to the score reel next to it. This would force the voltage provided to the reel (or in my case, ball count unit) into the next one and you can see if it matches up to the actions of the other one like a copycat, and to even go a step further since they're beautifully numbered score reels it's kind of funny, because instead of counting the pulses, you can just compare the two printed numbers and see if they match up (as long as you start them in the same place)!

Essentially, you're copying the data the problem reel is receiving and transmitting it directly to a different reel by force at the same time. This will allow you to count the pulses on a reel that you know is working properly, and thus distinguish the problem as the score reel, or instead the thing that controls the score reel. If both score reels are only adding 100 points for a 300 point pulse, you know the problem is elsewhere than the reels.

One word of caution, on multiplayer machines I usually hook the reel to one of the other player's for one simple reason, if you run the reels over to the next place (i.e. 700 -> 800 -> 900 ->.... 1,000!) you will add another "1" pulse to the digit you are using to test which will mess up your results. Even if you hook it to the reel before itself, it will eventually roll the problem reel as well, they'd both do it to each other and unfortunately you only have 3 reels to choose from with your problem reel smack dab in the middle of both. So just keep that in mind when utilizing this method and don't go getting yourself confused. The whole "rolls over to the next place" circuit could cause a lot of mental problems and confusion. Best case, test it with all the digits at 0 so you don't even have to open that bag of worms. One time will tell you everything you need to know, so you'll stay far away from 1,000/100.

#17 9 months ago

Hi Otaku-Thanks for the detailed post. I do have an analog mulitmeter and ran the tests (also repeating with test lights). Both the reel coil and L (100) coil did match the actual score in flashes/pulses, and the reel to reel test actually ran wrong the other way: the 1's reel fell behind. So, back to P or something, even though tests there showed it was ok.

#18 9 months ago

Are you insinuating that there is a reel issue, or a game issue? I read your post twice and can't tell which way you were saying things meant. Hope it helped!

Otaku

#19 9 months ago

Hi currieddog
I refer to the JPG in post-11 and the facts: "green, motor-1A must actuate / flash-up the testlight five times" , "red, motor-2C" then "blue, motor-3B" then "brown, motor-1B" are allowed and must make the Testlight flash-up once (((when You have many testlights You can see: First "green-only" - then "green and red" then "green and blue" then "green and brown" then "green-only".
Your post-13 / -15: A fault in "red, motor-2C" - flashes-up the testlight three times.

You may have more than just one fault in the pin --- I suggest You look for the reason - then fix the fault "red, motor-2C" - maybe all is fixed - maybe we must investigate further (on 2nd, 3rd ... problem). Greetings Rolf

#20 9 months ago
Quoted from Otaku:

Are you insinuating that there is a reel issue, or a game issue? I read your post twice and can't tell which way you were saying things meant. Hope it helped!

Saying that the 1's reel, rather than matching the 100's, was the one that fell behind rather than the 100's, which was what I expected.

#21 9 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

You may have more than just one fault in the pin --- I suggest You look for the reason - then fix the fault "red, motor-2C" - maybe all is fixed - maybe we must investigate further (on 2nd, 3rd ... problem).

2C always gives 3 flashes, Rolf, and I only see the contacts touch once. I don't know how to fix that, if it is indeed a problem.

#23 9 months ago

Hi currieddog
oops- time is running - I realize I have overlooked Your post-21. Hmm - motor-2C closes just once but the lights flash-up three times. Im just curios - does the flashing-up of one of the flashes is "exactly together with the just once closing of motor-2C" ?
Do not get angry - question: The flashing-up three times is done within "motor turns 120 degrees then motor stops" ? (((or very little chance (do not get angry) - the motor makes a turn of 360 degrees means a full revolution ?)))

I must face "my theory of faulty doing THREE flashes on motor-2C does not match with HowardR 's questions in post-2 - does not match with Your answer in post-4" - in post-4 You write to 1,2,3,4: NEVER too much points given - the B/100 (is "red, motor-2C") ALWAYS scores correct - the C/200 usually correct (little question: If not correct - then 100 points ?) - the D/E/F usually faulty - (AT LEAST (is this true ?)) 100 - sometimes 200 - seldom 300.

A working hypothesis: On D/E/F always good is the closing of "red, motor-2C" - most of the times good is "blue, motor-3B" - seldom "brown, motor-1B" - lets put aside my "three times is faulty on red, motor-2C" (- I don't like to put it aside - but I put it aside) --- lets concentrate on "brown, motor-1B". In the schematics I see: "brown, motor-1B does actuate through "D" the #6, through "E" the #11, through "F" the #12 - questions: You manually hit the target #6 - do You get reliable points ? You manually hit the target #11 - do You get reliable points ? You manually hit the target #12 - do You get reliable points ?

Another thought - wire-BLK+WH connects "brown, motor-1B" to Switches on "E, F, G" relays --- so it goes from motor-1B to ONE of the E,F,G - then hops to the other two of these three relays. Questions: Does the connection from motor-1B runs through an Jones-Plug - all good ? wire runs from motor-1B to ONE of the relays - THERE all good ?

A true story frong long ago: I once had the "sometimes fault" I should be rewarded with an extraball - hard to get - rare I should get - BUT SOMETIMES I got it and sometimes I didn't get it --- I looked around a bit - pretty soon I was looking at the coil on the Extraball-Relay - Yes, looks good --- I looked further and further and further - came back to the coil on Extraball-Relay AND GENTLY pulled a bit on the wires running to the coil --- SURPRISE: One wire has been broken-off but stayed in place (visual check) but sometimes due to vibration the wire moved away - then vibration again - wire moved back making connection. SINCE this time I do not only look at a wire / solderlug - I grab each wire and gently pull a bit - TRUELY soldered-on or broken-off (but at the moment staying in place) ? Greetings Rolf

#24 9 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

does the flashing-up of one of the flashes is "exactly together with the just once closing of motor-2C" ?
Do not get angry - question: The flashing-up three times is done within "motor turns 120 degrees then motor stops" ? (((or very little chance (do not get angry) - the motor makes a turn of 360 degrees means a full revolution ?

You're helping me, Rolf, no way I could get angry! So, the three flashes occur during the 120 rotation and it is possible that one occurs at the time of sw. contact, but all definitely do not.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

NEVER too much points given - the B/100 (is "red, motor-2C") ALWAYS scores correct - the C/200 usually correct (little question: If not correct - then 100 points ?) - the D/E/F usually faulty - (AT LEAST (is this true ?)) 100 - sometimes 200 - seldom 300.

NEVER too many points, and here is an example from a game last night: ball landed in E, gave 100 pts., ejected, hit the pop bumper and went back in, giving 300. Any one except B can give an incorrect amount. Targets ALWAYS score correctly (50). 300 on D-E-F is not unusual.

I have to go thru the Jones plug connections again, but I have really checked for loose wires, poor solders, floating contacts, etc. It's had the floating contact feel from the start and your diagnosis of the hold sw. on L helped some, but it's not completely fixed. Alas

#25 9 months ago

Hi currieddog
You have testlight(s) - see the bottom of the JPG in post-11 - I have encircled three times a switch on F-Relay --- want to concentrate on "just testing the 'F' " --- You clip-on one testlight after the switch on "F" in the JPB: bottom, left side of switch "F" --- then another testlight on next switch on "F" (upper side of the switch) - then another testlight on the last switch on "F" - upper side. Then ONLY test the "F" hole - which one of the three testlights seldom flash-up ?

Time is running on different occasions / ways - it is after 11 at night - I go to sleep - till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#26 9 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

I have encircled three times a switch on F-Relay

OK, I think I got them right, but all flash (only one set of test lights, so one at a time) 3x and score 50 each time.

And here is an odd one: There is a red wire that goes into all 5 relays and scores 200 on C-F, and 100 on B.

#27 9 months ago

Hi currieddog
I know the comparative "good better best" - how does it go on "weird ... ..." ?

"The odd one" - the schematics says "B-Relay - 4 A-switches" - "C-Relay - 5 A-Switches" - "D-Relay - 6A switches" - "E-Relay - 6A switches" - "F-Relay - 6A switches". This sums up to 27 Normally-Open switches. In the JPG I show all the 27 switches --- Yes, I see wire-red goes to a switch on all these relays - to actuate (two coils) "Hole-Kicker" - when the feature "Ball lands in a hole" comes to its end. I do not understand Your "red wire scores 200 on C-F and 100 on B" --- please explain - with test-light ? - clipped-on "where ? to where ?" --- without test-light ? - what is the scenario - what were You doing ?

Your "all flash 3x and score 50 each time" --- do You no longer get the 100 / 200 / 300 points - but You get 50 points instead ? Does the motor run ? How is Your test set up ?
In the JPG - "marked blue": Hitting an Standup-Target makes the I-50-points-relay to actuate to give 50 points --- tricky - the P-Relay is actuated - BUT the motor does not turn - so the I-Relay can be activated.

(Maybe I must come to the "clue": Test-Lights cannot be used when in the problem an Series-Relay is involved --- I never have tried my Test-Light handling with an Series-Relay) Greetings Rolf

0Aquarius-Work-03 (resized).jpg

#28 9 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

I do not understand Your "red wire scores 200 on C-F and 100 on B" --- please explain - with test-light ? - clipped-on "where ? to where ?" --- without test-light ? - what is the scenario - what were You doing ?

On each of those I had a test light wire clipped to the hub of the relay coil and the other to the red wire.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Your "all flash 3x and score 50 each time" --- do You no longer get the 100 / 200 / 300 points - but You get 50 points instead ? Does the motor run ? How is Your test set up ?

This was the F test you asked for in post 25.

One bulb has burned out. Need to go buy a new one.

#29 9 months ago

Hi currieddog
my post-25 - hmm, maybe it is not wise to write an post when I am tired - and should heve gone to sleep.
The JPG here shows what I wanted to write - see the switches on "F-Relay" --- to every switch I copied the "color of the wires". Greetings Rolf

0Aquarius-Work-04 (resized).jpg

#30 9 months ago

OK, will try after I replace the bulb. Thanks!

#31 9 months ago

The most any one flashes is once. It appears that each does not always flash, but that doesn't necessarily affect the score, ie-it can still get 300. It is kind of hard to tell overall, because the flashes are rather faint.

I'm going to do this again, Rolf.

#32 9 months ago

Hi currieddog
maybe we look on the wrong place (?) - see the first JPG, motor sequence chart - drawn rosa / pink: The time the motor-2B actuates - very late in the turn of 120 degrees - at end. See my big red question mark --- the "Self-Hold-Switches on B,C,D,E,F-Relay(s)" are hooked together - are hooked to "motor-switch-2B" --- something makes the relays to pull-in - by pulling-in they establish Self-Hold-Circuitry - stay pulling until motor-2B opens and cut the Self-Hold-Circuitry. IF (if, if) the problem is there and the (C) D E F -Relay(s) quit pulling "too early": The P-Relay will no more be actuated. See my "yellow drawn" Test-Light - it must be lit "from beginning of the feature until after a turn of 120 degrees of the motor - motor-2B opens" - always the same length in time.

In post-23 I wrote "the true story - how I came to 'not only looking at solder-points but grabbing each wire and pull a bit' " - want to check these "Self-Hold-Switches and the wires" ?

The following is just "nice what Williams has invented - instead of Gottlieb-Series-Relay" - here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2110&picno=20169 above each bumper we see an unlit rollover-button. Every time the ball rolls over a rollover-button: I get One point. The FIRST TIME the ball rolls over the rollover-button: The rollover-button gets lightet AND the bumper below gets lightet and the bumper changes from One point to Ten points --- so I am very interested in "ball rolls at least once over every of the three rollover buttons - then the bumpers are lighted and I can make big points. (((There are also "Center Target Switches to light the bumpers)))

The #1-red-Relay, #1-white-Relay, 1-blue-Relay are "Trip-Relays" mounted in a bank of relays --- they trip and stay tripped for the rest of the life of the ball in play. Tricky - see the Make-and-Brake-Switch on the #1-red-Relay in the second JPG --- first the relay is made to trip - then the One-Point-Relay is made to pull (and the 2nd, 3rd ... time the ball rolls over the rollover-button: The Make-and-Brake-Switch is moved (relay already has tripped). A nice invention - instead of doing the stuff with Trip-Relay and Series-Relay. Greetings Rolf

0Aquarius-Work-05 (resized).jpg

0Shangri-La-tricky-Solution-Save (resized).jpg

#33 9 months ago

Hi Rolf-Lights go on immediately when hooked to 2B/P, and stay lit til close to end of rotation; always same length. All wires on that hold circuit are good.

#34 9 months ago

Hi currieddog
today I didn't have time - and I need daylight - and - arghh - my Surf Champ stands in a corner - packed in - I must move around stuff to pull forward the pin - I must find the SERIES-Relay in my Surf Champ - then I can clip-on my Test-Light - and then I will learn about "Test-Light can be used / cannot be used" in a wiring of an Trip-Relay - Series-Relay (Gottlieb pin). I was hoping for luck (fault is in Self-Hold-Circuitry in Your pin) --- here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2459&picno=46671 - the rollover-buttons are involved - I hope for luck that the Series-Relay is mounted on the playfield - accessible without moving / pulling around many / lot of stuff.

When Your Relays always stay pulling until motor-2B opens then I say "back to where we were troubleshooting - digging in deeper" - and I must learn in my Surf Champ about "using an Test-Light in a circuitry with "Series-Relay". Greetings Rolf

#35 9 months ago

Hi currieddog
I could make me access to the "underneathside of the playfield on my Surf Champ". Here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2459&picno=46671 on the bottom of the picture the five rollovers - lighted when a new ball is given. Above to the right - in a line: five un-lit lamps.
Whenever the ball rolls over an rollover button: I get 100 points. The FIRST time the ball rolls over an RO-Button: The lamp on the RO-Button turns off - the lamp on the right turns on - so I get more points when the ball lands in the Eject-Hole. Simple said: I am interested that the ball rolls over at least once over every one of the five RO-Bottons.
See the JPG - the situation in my Surf Chamo is the same as in Your Aquarius - "A-Relay" is the Series-Relay - actuating gives my 100 points. The "1B-, 2B, 3B-, 4B-, 5B-Relay(s)" are the Trip-Relays for the Rollover-Button-Stuff - they trip when the ball rolls over the first time - the Trip-Relays handle the lights and the "more points on the Eject-Hole-feature".

I took my 24-Volt-Test-Light and set-up two different testings - see the JPG - the "dim" is "Test-Light mounted parallel to Coil on Series-Relay" - the "lighting up only dim" is caused: "Series-Relay-Coil and 1B-Relay-Coil act as an Voltage Divider" (((I am out of spare fuses so I did not try there an 12-Volt-Test-Light))). The mounted "bright" is good for "playing and have an eye on the Test-Light laid on the apron" - as the playfield is down, the wires for the Test-Light come out of the open coin-door - I play.
See the JPG in post-29 - "red and blue and brown" mounted Test-Lights do the same as "my bright in my Surf Champ" - You mount the three Test-Lights and You play - EVERY time the ball lands in the "F-Hole" - one after the other - all three Test-Lights must light up.
If they do light-up - but You do not get 300 points: We must look on "connection Series-Relay must make the Score-Drum to step".
If the three Test-Lights do not light-up as "how we want them do act" we know for sure: Fault must be in the connection motor-1A - other motor-switches - (((F-Relay-Switches***))) - Trip-Relays - Series-Relay.
F-Relay-Switches***: In post-33 You confirmed: F-Relay stays pulling all the time when the motor runs - so the F-Relay-Switches are closed. Greetings Rolf

0Surf-Champ-Work-29 (resized).jpg

#36 9 months ago

Is there a one set of test lights workaround, Rolf?

#37 9 months ago

Hi currieddog
I am german speaking and so sometimes I struggle with "what is the meaning of the english text ?" --- If Your question is "Have only one Test-Light - what kind of test can I do ?":

See JPG in post-29 - from the reactions Your pin shows I believe (believe) "Test-Light mounted as 'red' will always light up" - therefore choose either set-up "blue" or set-up "brown" - play and have an eye on the testlight when the ball rolls into "F"-Eject-Hole - ALWAYS Your Test-Light must flash-up ONCE - does it ?

IF (if, if) Your question in post-36 is other than I assume - please ask using more words. Greetings Rolf

#38 8 months ago

Hi currieddog
good news on "my Surf Champ". I bought me some fuses and some more 12-Volt-car-bulbs - I made me an 12-Volt-Test-Light (just using one car-bulb) - see the JPG - the 12-Volt-Test-Light hooked-on (parallel) on the A-SERIES-Relay --- nice, the 12-Volt-Test-Light lights-up bright --- I tried it 100 times and also (keeping the rollover-button closed) for 30 seconds consecutive. The Test-Light did not blow - the fuse did not blow.
My A-Series-Relay is of type "A-9746" and the five Trip-Relays are of type "A-1119".
The OHMs - here https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html A-9746 (#24) has 1.8*** Ohm, A-1119 has 2.0 Ohm. Here https://pinballmedic.net/coil_chart.html#coil_wire_gauge_strength_rules (almost down on the bottom) A-9746 has 1.5*** Ohm, A1119 has 2.1 Ohm.
I make it easy for me - not very precise - A-9746 and A-1119 have same OHMs - the 24 to 25 Volts are about halved - so "around 12 Volts is half of 24 to 25 Volts" - The Series-Relay and a Trip-Relay act as an voltage-divider --- and I can use the 12-Volt-Test-Light on the SERIES-Relay and on the TRIP-Relay - mounting parallel the 12-Volt-Test-Light to one of the coils.

Your Aquarius has the P-Series-Relay - A-9746 and the #1-, #2-, etc, -Trip-Relays are A-1119 - same situation. (Anyway, still: Have some spare fuses and have some spare car-bulbs). Hook-on Your newly made 12-Volt-Test-Light on the P-Sequence-Series-Relay in Your pin - take the playfield down, the long wires of the 12-Volt-Test-Light are coming out of the open coin-door - play and watch the 12-Volt-Test-Light - do You get the "flashes up once / flashes-up twice / flashes-up three-times" - as You expect ? So we then can say AAA: The make-pulling the P-Relay is faulty --- or BBB: The make-pulling the P-Relay is good - fault must be in "the P-Relay must actuate the L-Relay must actuate the 100-point-score-drum" --- either AAA or BBB.

1.8*** Ohm / 1.5*** Ohm: I remember the "general rule": "flipper coils are different - all other coils '"when we measure LESS than 2 OHMs: Coil is DEAD' " --- correct is - we must say "flipper coils and coils used 'mounted in SERIES' are different". Greetings Rolf

0Surf-Champ-Work-30 (resized).jpg

#39 8 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

I made me an 12-Volt-Test-Light (just using one car-bulb) - see the JPG - the 12-Volt-Test-Light hooked-on (parallel) on the A-SERIES-Relay --- nice, the 12-Volt-Test-

I'll have to make one this weekend and check it. Thanks, Rolf!

#40 8 months ago

OK, this is weird: with the new test light on the lugs on P it ALWAYS scores correctly. It doesn't with a straight jumper.

#42 8 months ago

Hi currieddog
(JPG in post-38) You have mounted permanent "Test-Light 12-Volt bright and the pin acts 100% correct" ? --- and mounted "24-Volt bright and the pin sometimes acts faulty" ? If "Yes, Yes": This is the second puzzling miracle (the first puzzling miracle: You once got "24-Volt-Test-Light hooked on 'here ONE flashing up is expected --- but You were always getting three times' " ).
I will start a new topic on "second miracle - explanations ?" - in here, please write about the "Yes, Yes ? - really 'Yes, Yes' ". Greetings Rolf

#43 8 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

(JPG in post-38) You have mounted permanent "Test-Light 12-Volt bright and the pin acts 100% correct" ? --- and mounted "24-Volt bright and the pin sometimes acts faulty" ?

Hi Rolf-I hooked up the single-light 12 volt tester on the hubs of P and every kickout scored correctly. With straight, wire-only jumper on it does not score. I am not sure that 24 v. lights are available here, at least the car-type.

I just tried it again with the double-light 12 v. tester and all score correctly.

#44 8 months ago

Hi currieddog
maybe an electronics-shop (Radio-Shack ?) sells 24Volt bulbs - maybe K-Mart etc. When You can buy 24-Volt bulbs: Buy. Taking two 12Volt-car-bulbs mounted one behind the other is just a remedy / work-around. Identical lamps mounted one behind the other (other other ...) is "adding Volts" ---Two bulbs is 12+12= 24-Volt-Test-Light, three bulbs is 12+12+12= 36-Volt-Test-Light, four bulbs is 48-Volt-Test-Light etc. See the JPH in post-38 - the Relay-1B (2B,3B,4B,5B) has about the same OHMs as the Relay-A. Relay-A is mounted in series - behind Relay-1B - because of "same OHMs" the voltage in between is halved - we can hook-on like shown as "12 Volt bright" an 12-Volt-Test-Light (as there is the very special, seldom "two relays mounted behind" situation). When we hook-on there an 24-Volt-Test-Light shown as "24 Volt dim" - the 24-Volt-Test-Light is frustrated - says: "I only get half of the voltage I am used to get --- I react by not lighting up as bright as I would (when getting the 24 Volts I am used to)".

Your post-43 I read as "Hooked-on the 12-Volt-Test-Light as "shown in JPG, post-38, as 12 Volt bright": The pin plays as it should - everything is working.
Your post-43 I read as "Hooked-on the 24-Volt-Test-Light as "shown in JPG, post-38, as 24 Volt dim": The pin plays as it should - everything is working.
The rest I do not fully understand - "wire-only jumper" please explain - from where to where ?

The analogy is not good - actually there is no analogy - think of the Bally Delay-Relay - it needs an working 455-bulb so the relay can function. Want to say (?): "The Series-Relay P-Relay has personality - it only wants to function when a 12-Volt-(Test)-Light is hooked-on permanent. I (means You) buy a few spare 12-Volt-car-bulbs --- and every 2,3,4,5 years I replace the bulb ?

Or You may say "I live for a while with the 12-Volt-car-bulb-solution - but I do start a new topic +/- 'Weird situation with P-SERIES-Relay in Gottlieb Aquarius' " (?)

Please tell me about the "wire-only jumper". Greetings Rolf
P.S.: It happens - seldom - I say: I gladly accept an miracle - I do not understand - but I am happy the pin functions.
P.P.S.: Maybe little gremlins were at work --- what happens when You play "No Test-Light - No Jumper" ?

#45 8 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Please tell me about the "wire-only jumper". Greetings Rolf
P.S.: It happens - seldom - I say: I gladly accept an miracle - I do not understand - but I am happy the pin functions.
P.P.S.: Maybe little gremlins were at work --- what happens when You play "No Test-Light - No Jumper" ?

Wire-only jumper is just a piece of wire with an alligator clip at each end. With nothing hooked up to P, scoring on C-F remains erratic. What would make P/scoring work correctly with a test light hooked up, but not score at all with a wire-only jumper? Hmmm

#46 8 months ago

Hi currieddog
O.K. - in the end of post-44 I wrote "Please tell me about the 'wire-only' jumper". But about in the middle of post-44 I asked (jumper) FROM WHERE TO WHERE did You jumper ? and then the result was "no good scoring".

To start brainstorming on the problem (last sentence in post-45): I need to know FROM WHERE TO WHERE (?) did You jumper ? Greetings Rolf

#47 8 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

I need to know FROM WHERE TO WHERE (?) did You jumper ?

Oooop. Same as the others: lugs on P.

#48 8 months ago

Hi currieddog
When You mount an Jumper-Wire on the Lugs on the Coil on the P-Relay: You are doing what Bally did want to happen - at a time - in some old pins --- a short-cut - a freeway for the electrons coming-in --- ALL electrons will take the good - easy way through the Jumper-Wire - no or only maybe a very few will take the way through the coil on P-Relay - in Your pin the P-Relay simply gets not enough electricity to pull in (as all electrons take the freeway through the jumper).

See the JPG - Capersville - the resistor (encircled green) is an consumer as Your #1,#2etc-relay. The Bally-Hold-Relay is an consumer like Your P-Series-Relay. On Capersville we bang a Tilt - Pendulum-Tilt-Switch closes --- ALL electrons take the freeway AROUND - Hold-Relay has no more electrons passing through - has no more current / circuitry - Hold-Relay quits pulling.

We were lucky You jumpered the solder-lugs on the P-SERIES-Relay - if You jumper this way an ordinary coil on a ordinary relay: You'd create a short - and the fuse blows. Greetings Rolf

0Capersville-Work-01 (resized).jpg

#49 8 months ago

But why does it score correctly with the test lights on the lugs on P?

#50 8 months ago

Hi currieddog
Friday I will be in Zurich --- there is an store for "Hobby-Electronics" - the owner did help me on several problems I had --- I will go and ask about "our mystery". A question I (already) have is "car-bulb(s) You bought - OK, 12 Volts - do You have information about OHMs or Watts to the bulb(s) ?". I am thinking of maybe we try putting an resistor instead of the Test-Light there.
(((And (old - often) discussed in pinside: What for is this resistor-relay wiring ?)))
So - do You have information on OHMs and / or Watts to Your car-bulb(s) ? Would be nice to know as I would like to take the information to the owner of the store when I go there on Friday asking. Greetings Rolf

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 999.00
Pinball Machine
Mircoplayfields
$ 128.00
Playfield - Other
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 7,395.00
Pinball Machine
Classic Game Rooms
$ 27.25
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
$ 125.00
Cabinet - Toppers
Sparky Pinball
$ 5.00
Playfield - Decals
Doc's Pinball Shop
$ 49.00
From: $ 15.00
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
$ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
$ 14.00
Electronics
Yorktown Parts and Equip
$ 239.99
Lighting - Led
PinballBulbs
$ 99.99
Lighting - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
€ 8.40
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
$ 99.00
Lighting - Under Cabinet
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 8.99
Lighting - Other
Pappy's Pinball Palace
$ 15.00
Electronics
Third Coast Pinball
$ 149.00
$ 229.99
Lighting - Led
PinballBulbs
From: $ 218.00
$ 169.95
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
From: $ 500.00
Pinball Machine
Great American Pinball
$ 27.95
There are 60 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside