(Topic ID: 294632)

Coils stuck on (Solved)

By Kickout

1 year ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 38 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Kickout
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

2018-02-06-14.27-2 (resized).jpg
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png

#1 1 year ago

Had my Williams 1964 River Boat working, but this morning things are going wrong. Push the replay button at start up and the 100 pt re energizes right away and stays energized. The 1pt, 10pt and 1000pt drums reset. The 100 pt drum coil energizes put stays pulled in not resetting the drum. I’ve checked and double check that all switch are in the right positions at start up for these coils. Is it possible that the drum unit coil staying pulled in is causing the 100 pt relay to stay energized?
Thanks
Kickout

#2 1 year ago

Are you sure the 100 pt relay is energized? The score reel should be getting impulsed from a score reset relay during the startup sequence (score relays should be isolated from the drum units during reset by gameover switch, unless you have a rogue short) - maybe the score reset relay switch for that drum is closed or shorted and, therefore, not cycling.

#3 1 year ago

Have you checked all switches on the playfield which score 100 points ? One could be closed. The spinner between the pop bumpers could be likely.

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from sudsy7:

Are you sure the 100 pt relay is energized?

Yes, this relay energizes and stays on at start up.

Quoted from oldpins:

Have you checked all switches on the playfield which score 100 points ?

Checked them all twice.

#5 1 year ago

Are the switches on your index cam opening and closing properly? No touching tabs or wires on the back side?

#6 1 year ago

So, the score motor is turning over endlessly, correct? Is the Game Over Relay tripped (it should be during reset)? And if it's tripped, it has a switch that should be open that cuts off power to all scoring relays including the 100 pt relay. If that switch is open (which you can verify by trying to press a 1 pt or 10 pt target on the playfield - you should see no response), then I would say you have a short to the 100 pt score relay.

Usually, if you have a stuck scoring switch, it won't reveal itself until after the reset is complete (because the scoring circuits should be dead during reset).

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

Are the switches on your index cam opening and closing properly?

Yes they are.

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from sudsy7:

So, the score motor is turning over endlessly, correct? Is the Game Over Relay tripped

Sudsy7,
Here is what happens:
Plug game in
Game has credits
Hit left flipper game lites up
Drop coin in
Relay bank resets
Score reels rest
Game Over Re. stays latched
Tilt Re. stays latched
Game Re. stays latched

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from Kickout:

Relay bank resets
Score reels rest
Game Over Re. stays latched

I don't have this game, but assuming the Game Over Re. is on the Relay Bank, then there would be power to the scoring circuits when the score reels are resetting on this game. So, sequence looks good, and I know you said you double-checked all the switches were in the correct position, but it really looks like one of the switches is the culprit. A switch can be open but a path for current can still exist - bent solder tab, stray wire strand, solder splash bridge, etc. There are a lot of circuits to fire the 100-pt relay...

pasted_image (resized).png
#10 1 year ago

Sudsy7,
Let me see if I have this correct. When a coin is dropped the coin switch closed energizing the Coin re. The coin relay energizes the Bank re. latching the Tilt and Game Over relays along with the number relays and the Game relay. The Lock re. also energizes at the same time. Should the Lock re trip the Tilt re at this time?
When I manually trip the tilt re. and game over re. together the game plays, but the 100pt re stays energized. Jumping from the yellow on the transformer to the 1,10 and 100 point relays and they all works as they should, so those coils are good.
I am going to go back thru all switches that you show that energize the 100pt relay and check them again.
Does any of this make sense?
Thanks
Kickout

#11 1 year ago

Remove the single wire going to the 100 point relay coil. If the game now resets properly, you've verified the reset circuits are good. Next, troubleshoot why the wire you temporarily removed has power if all playfield switches are verified as open.
Use standard electrical troubleshooting techniques....

#12 1 year ago

MrBallu

Quoted from MrBally:

Remove the single wire going to the 100 point relay coil.

You are correct. With the wire removed it goes through reset. As soon as I touch the wire back to the coil, the 100pt coil locks on. Will use a multimeter and check the 100pt circuit and relays.
Thanks

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from Kickout:With the wire removed it goes through reset. As soon as I touch the wire back to the coil, the 100pt coil locks on. Will use a multimeter and check the 100pt circuit and relays.

The odd thing about this is that when the machine is resetting, the circuit connected to the 100-pt Relay should be dead via a make-break switch on the Reset Relay (see below). As I said before, these stuck-on score reels usually don't reveal themselves, until after the reset is complete, but you have clearly stated that the coil comes on immediately after pushing the replay button (you didn't say but the score motor should be running continuously). If one of the circuits shown in post #9 above is inadvertently closed, the Reset Relay switch would also have to be closed to get power to 100-pt relay. You never did say if pressing a 1 or 10 pt contact on the playfield during reset has any response - that would tell you if that Reset switch is properly isolating power. If it is isolating power properly, then that could mean you have an unconventional shorting path between power and neutral for the 100-pt Relay - i.e., a path not depicted on the schematic.

pasted_image (resized).png
#14 1 year ago

Sudsy7

When tracing the wire on the 100 pt circuit, the wire colors do not match the schematics. I under stand that this could happen when the machine was built. It looks like they replaced the red wire connecting to some switches with a common clear wire. Does this sound correct? I've run a multi meter test looking for a closed sw that should be open, but found nothing out of order. I even placed carboard strips between all switch that would fire the 100pt relay, but the relay still stays energized?
If any of the following switches are closed the 100pt relay will energize: Are these the only switches or am I missing something.
Top RO sw
L. Bot RO sw
R. Bot RO sw
L. Side RO sw
R. Side RO sw
100 Pt Re (this is the hold sw)
10 Pt Re
On Grn Bumper Re
and two rivets on Advance unit.

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from sudsy7:

You never did say if pressing a 1 or 10 pt contact on the playfield during reset has any response - that would tell you if that Reset switch is properly isolating power.

Quoted from sudsy7:

(you didn't say but the score motor should be running continuously)

?

#16 1 year ago

No response

Score motor does not run continuously

When I push the left flipper button the game is ready to play, was not paying attention to this during start up, focusing on the 100 pt relay. My fault for not catching this earlier.

At the end of a game the Game Over lites, the game ends, but the replay relay energizes and stays on. Should I drop this post and start a new one?

#17 1 year ago

So, your machine is and has been fully resetting the whole time (score motor not running) and the Reset Re. switch is isolating the circuit properly. This is good - I just wish you would have disclosed this earlier, especially when I had asked you twice!

So, you just need to find which one of those circuits in post #9 is causing your 100-pt relay to lock-in. Stay focused on finding that for now. Your eyes are the best tool for finding the problem - not a meter. One thing you miight want to check is the jones plug(s) connecting the cabinet to the backbox - could be a strand of wire between pins. There could be a strand of wire or a piece of solder laying across 2 blade switches on a relay. Could be two solder tabs touching together somewhere. It's an Easter egg hunt, but you will eventually find it, and you will end up saying that was easy and I should have seen it earlier.

#18 1 year ago

Sudsy7,
Thanks for the optimism. I’ll keep trying.

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from Kickout:

At the end of a game the Game Over lites, the game ends, but the replay relay energizes and stays on.

Curious and have to ask - does the game try to reset then? Because the Replay Re. is what energizes when you press the Replay button to start a new game. Are you sure it is happening at the end of a game? Does it happen if you have no credits on the game?

#20 1 year ago

Start a game. Shoot first ball it hits any target, Game Re. trips. After last ball drains, Game Over Re. trips, Game Over light comes on, but Tilt Re. does not trip, Score motor runs does not stop until the Tilt Re. is tripped.

#21 1 year ago

Score motor cam 3 switch A pulses the tilt relay. Clean switch and check gap.

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from Kickout:

Start a game. Shoot first ball it hits any target, Game Re. trips. After last ball drains, Game Over Re. trips, Game Over light comes on, but Tilt Re. does not trip, Score motor runs does not stop until the Tilt Re. is tripped.

Everything in that sequence looks normal, except the Tilt Re. not tripping at the very end. You don't mention the Replay Re. energizing anymore like you did in Post #16, so I assume you misspoke and that isn't happening.

When the Gameover Re. trips it starts the score motor running (see blue highlighted circuit below). Also, when the Gameover Re. trips, it has a make-break switch on it that completes a circuit to trip the Tilt Re. as the score motor switch 3A pulses (see the purple highlighted circuit below). Now back to the blue circuit - there is a Tilt Re. switch that opens when Tilt Re. trips and that stops the score motor.

So, you need to check/adjust the 2 switches in the purple circuit that are responsible for tripping the Tilt Re. One or both (not likely) of them is not closing to trip it.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#23 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Score motor cam 3 switch A pulses the tilt relay. Clean switch and check gap.

Did this Tilt Re trips sometimes.

Quoted from sudsy7:

you need to check/adjust the 2 switches in the purple circuit that are responsible for tripping the Tilt Re. One or both (not likely) of them is not closing to trip it.

I will check these switches this evening.

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from Kickout:

I will check these switches this evening.

You just checked one of them (motor 3A). If adjusting that one changed the Tilt Re. trip from "never" to "sometimes", I suspect you have found your bogey and you just need to clean/adjust it better.
Just to be sure, that switch is supposed to be open all the time, except when the cam notch is allowing the switch stack to fall, then it must be closed.

#25 1 year ago

Ok, again went back and checked all switches. All in correct positions and gapped correctly. The 100pt relay It stays energized, the 100pt drum unit fires as it should. I am lost.

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from Kickout:

Ok, again went back and checked all switches. All in correct positions and gapped correctly. The 100pt relay It stays energized, the 100pt drum unit fires as it should. I am lost.

Get your soldering iron out and open circuits (ref. post #9) at strategic points to isolate which branch is causing the 100-pt relay to energize.

I will assume you got the Tilt Re. problem resolved.

#27 1 year ago

Sudby7

Tilt problem fixed.

I will get the soldering iron out and start tonight to open circuits. Going to be a slow process, will repost when done.

Thanks

#28 1 year ago

Desolder each lead to 100 pt relay, and it is still stuck on. I am thinking it may have something to do with the center top bumper target. This target gets 100 pts when lite. What causes it to differentiate from 10 and 100 points?

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from Kickout:

Desolder each lead to 100 pt relay, and it is still stuck on. I am thinking it may have something to do with the center top bumper target. This target gets 100 pts when lite. What causes it to differentiate from 10 and 100 points?

What makes you think it's that pop bumper? You should have isolated it from the 100-pt relay when you desoldered that leg in your test. It is lit and worth 100 pts at only 2 out of 10 positions on the Advance Unit, otherwise it is worth 10 pts. Circuit is shown below( red=100pt, green=10 pt, blue=common). I don't think you did the isolation test correctly for all the branches of the circuit.

pasted_image (resized).png
#30 1 year ago

I've had the "end of stroke" switch on a 10's score drum unit bent in a way causing the 100 point relay to energize. Since the switch is part of the 100 point relay coil circuit, I assume you cut/desoldered it already. If not, try disconnecting it.
Ive also had the screw insulating tubes on switch stacks (on score reels) fail causing strange problems such as this.

#31 1 year ago

Sudsy7

When I isolated the branch, I isolated only one line at a time to the Advance Unit. I will go back and remove both connection and see what happens.

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from Kickout:

When I isolated the branch, I isolated only one line at a time to the Advance Unit. I will go back and remove both connection and see what happens.

Still have the problem after de-soldering both connections at the Advance unit.

#33 1 year ago

MrBally

Quoted from MrBally:

Since the switch is part of the 100 point relay coil circuit, I assume you cut/desoldered it already. If not, try disconnecting it.
Did this not the problem.

I've also had the screw insulating tubes on switch stacks (on score reels) fail causing strange problems such as this.

Checked all insulating tubes, all good.

#34 1 year ago

Has the problem been isolated to the playfield by unplugging the playfield jones plugs?

#35 1 year ago

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Isolate circuit at each number sequentially on this diagram (all wires will be brown with grey tracer). You better have isolation at Point #1 or there is a short somewhere directly on the 100-pt relay. If the relay doesn't energize, then you MUST have a short somewhere in the red circuit. Solder #1 back on and go thru the rest of the points 2 thru 11, unsoldering the brown wire with grey tracer at each point until the 100 pt relay does not energize. If you unsolder them all and the 100pt relay is still energized then you have a short somewhere directly in the brown wire with grey tracer.

pasted_image (resized).png
#36 1 year ago

Sudsy7

Problem solved. Followed you steps and found the bad switch. Thanks for you patience and help.

Kickout

#37 1 year ago
Quoted from Kickout:

Problem solved. Followed you steps and found the bad switch. Thanks for you patience and help.

Which switch was it and how was it failing? Maybe someone else can benefit from your experience if you give the details.

#38 1 year ago

It was the lower right rollover switch. The leaf was touching the metal stationary blade causing the switch to be closed all the time.

2018-02-06-14.27-2 (resized).jpg
Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Spokane, WA
From: $ 7.99
Cabinet - Other
The Pinball Scientist
$ 25.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
$ 5.95
Playfield - Protection
The Pinball Scientist
$ 49.00
Various Novelties
Pinball Photos LLC
$ 6.50
Electronics
Yorktown Arcade Supply
Hey modders!
Your shop name here

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!