(Topic ID: 147304)

Coil not firing Strikes and Spares

By Sonora70

8 years ago


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There are 54 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 8 years ago

I think I'm down to my final issues. The right side sling shot coil is not firing. I've checked connections and all seem to be good. I ran the self test and it found this coil as well as the 10 tone coil (which works from time to time, haven't got to that one yet) as well as the coin door coil are not firing. I assume the coin door coil doesn't matter since it's set to free play?

How do I trace/determine the problem with the slingshot? Is this a board problem? I checked the ohms on both the right and left side coil and they are reading the same. I've gotten decent at following a schematic on an em but the solid state schematics are way past me. Any ideas much appreciated! Thanks!..

#2 8 years ago

Step one with problems like this is to see if the switch associated with the coil is registering.
Place the game in switch test.
Close the switch.
Did it register?

Assuming it did, next up is testing for power at the coil.
Meter set to DC volts
Black lead on the ground braid you will find in the cabinet.
Red lead on both coil lugs, one at a time.
Got coil power?

Next up...test the path from the transistor to the coil.
Use a length of stripped wire.
Tuck one end under the ground braid in the head.
BRIEFLY touch the other end to the tab of the driver board transistor labeled Q11 (see: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Transistor_Mapping_for_Bally_Games)
The coil should fire. If it does, this proves the path from the transistor to the coil is solid.

Test a bit. Report back.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#3 8 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Step one with problems like this is to see if the switch associated with the coil is registering.
Place the game in switch test.
Close the switch.
Did it register?
Assuming it did, next up is testing for power at the coil.
Meter set to DC volts
Black lead on the ground braid you will find in the cabinet.
Red lead on both coil lugs, one at a time.
Got coil power?
Next up...test the path from the transistor to the coil.
Use a length of stripped wire.
Tuck one end under the ground braid in the head.
BRIEFLY touch the other end to the tab of the driver board transistor labeled Q11 (see: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Transistor_Mapping_for_Bally_Games)
The coil should fire. If it does, this proves the path from the transistor to the coil is solid.
Test a bit. Report back.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Thanks....Will do. Hopefully get some time tomorrow to report back.

#4 8 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Step one with problems like this is to see if the switch associated with the coil is registering.
Place the game in switch test.
Close the switch.
Did it register?

Yes, it found the closed switch and when release it cleared to 0

Assuming it did, next up is testing for power at the coil.
Meter set to DC volts
Black lead on the ground braid you will find in the cabinet.
Red lead on both coil lugs, one at a time.
Got coil power?

Yes, both indicated the same number of volts....exact same as the left sling shot coil

Next up...test the path from the transistor to the coil.
Use a length of stripped wire.
Tuck one end under the ground braid in the head.
BRIEFLY touch the other end to the tab of the driver board transistor labeled Q11 (see: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Transistor_Mapping_for_Bally_Games)
The coil should fire. If it does, this proves the path from the transistor to the coil is solid.

Yes it fired.

Test a bit. Report back.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Not sure what to make of all this???? Does this isolate the problem?

#5 8 years ago
Quoted from Sonora70:

Not sure what to make of all this???? Does this isolate the problem?

I answered each question, although my answers do not show. So...

Yes, the test found the switch being closed and then cleared to 0 when I released

Yes the coil has power, exact same number of volts as the opposing slingshot coil.

Yes the coil fired.

#6 8 years ago

Two things...

1) Start a game with the glass off. Are you able to manually trigger the coil by pressing on the switch? If so, try adjusting the switch so it is more responsive to the ball, by tightening the switch gap.

2) If the answer to #1 is no, I'm guessing the issue is the connection between the switch and the coil?

#7 8 years ago
Quoted from westofrome:

Two things...
1) Start a game with the glass off. Are you able to manually trigger the coil by pressing on the switch? If so, try adjusting the switch so it is more responsive to the ball, by tightening the switch gap.
2) If the answer to #1 is no, I'm guessing the issue is the connection between the switch and the coil?

No. The switch gives points but does not fire the coil.

#8 8 years ago

ok. Thanks for the answers.
There are a few more possibilities. The subject transistor is open, the 3081 predriver has failed, the .100 header on the lower right of the driver board isn't receiving the signals from the MPU correctly.

Test the transistor with your DMM set to diode test. Black on the center lead. Red on each flanking lead should read .5 to .7.

--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#9 8 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

ok. Thanks for the answers.
There are a few more possibilities. The subject transistor is open, the 3081 predriver has failed, the .100 header on the lower right of the driver board isn't receiving the signals from the MPU correctly.
Test the transistor with your DMM set to diode test. Black on the center lead. Red on each flanking lead should read .5 to .7.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

Thanks for the help! How can I identify the mentioned transistor? Is it on the mpu? I'm showing my lack of circuit board knowledge...

#10 8 years ago

He's talking about the Q11 transistor you tested connectivity for before, now you're testing the transistor itself.

#11 8 years ago
Quoted from Sonora70:

Thanks for the help! How can I identify the mentioned transistor? Is it on the mpu? I'm showing my lack of circuit board knowledge...

I'm pretty sure he was referring to the SCR labeled Q11 on the SDB.

Edit: oops, beaten to the punch!

#12 8 years ago
Quoted from Sonora70:

Thanks for the help! How can I identify the mentioned transistor? Is it on the mpu? I'm showing my lack of circuit board knowledge...

tested the Q11 transistor. In diode mode I got .382 and .267. In "auto mode" of my DMM I got .865 and .542.

#13 8 years ago

OK. That's a start. Now test the adjacent transistors the same way so we can compare readings with a known good transistor. This helps filter out DMM differences.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#14 8 years ago

Kudos for Mr. Hibler for giving excellent advice here---actually describing the detailed process of accurately troubleshooting it rather than just saying "Replace Q11 and all connectors" (which probably would do the trick).

#15 8 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

OK. That's a start. Now test the adjacent transistors the same way so we can compare readings with a known good transistor. This helps filter out DMM differences.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

The readings are all close, not exactly the same however. I now have a new issue, on start up the machine is not activating the coils. No coils are working, the entry tone is not playing.

#16 8 years ago

No worries. We will get the game going again. On the playfield bottom, nearly between the flippers, you will find a 1 amp sloblo fuse. Remove it. Use your meter to test for continuity across the fuse. Let's see if it's blown.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#17 8 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

No worries. We will get the game going again. On the playfield bottom, nearly between the flippers, you will find a 1 amp sloblo fuse. Remove it. Use your meter to test for continuity across the fuse. Let's see if it's blown.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

Just checked it, the fuse is good. Also cleaned fuse holders to ensure good continuity.

#18 8 years ago

Are the attract mode lights starting and the displays alternating scores? That would mean that the MPU is at least booting.

Assuming yes, let's test coil power again. Remove the ball, raise the PF, and measure DC voltage at one of the coil lugs like the sling kicker...just like we did previously. Got power?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#19 8 years ago

Update: I moved the connectors a bit on the right side of solenoid board and then the board completed the boot up with the coils activating. I have plugged/unplugged them several times, not sure why it worked this time. After the boot up, I played a game. The rsling worked but only for a couple minutes then went out again. The chimes all seemed to continue to work as they should. I am assuming I have a connector problem? They all appear to look good. I would like to determine what happened to allow the machine to boot as well. Is there a way to isolate the problem to be confident of the repair?

#20 8 years ago

I've been keeping my mouth shut because I seem to preach this too much. Without question, this era of Bally machines suffers from degradation of the connectors. My opinion on this is that if the machine is having bizarre problems, especially if when moving and reseating connectors makes a difference, the connectors must be rebuilt before any serious diagnosis can be done. Typically I replace the pins and plugs on the MPU and the solenoid driver board and completely rebuild the power supply. Once this is done, most problems just disappear and then the game is pretty much bullet proof for years. Note I only replace the pins and plugs on the Light driver board if there are obvious problems. Re-pinning and rebuilding connectors is one of the most important pinball skills to learn.. Not hard, just time consuming. Replacing and rebuilding what I detailed above usually takes 6-8 hours.

#21 8 years ago
Quoted from Freeplay40:

Without question, this era of Bally machines suffers from degradation of the connectors.

Agreed.
Those .100 connectors on the regulator/driver board, after this many years, are generally worn out or suffer from cracked solder joints. To rehab these boards, I replace all connectors including the .156 headers, the 5V filter cap (12,000uf), the HV trim pot, update the grounds for the HV and 5V caps, and jump test point 1 to test point 3 which eliminates the brown wire jumper connection in the female housing.
See: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Solenoid_Driver_Upgrades

If you've wiggled connectors and things got better/worse, it's time to repin both sides of those connectors, just as Freeplay40 suggests.

--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#22 8 years ago

Thanks. Getting ready to make an order for parts the day after Christmas.

#23 8 years ago

also never unplug the connectors while the power is on

1 week later
#24 8 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Agreed.
Those .100 connectors on the regulator/driver board, after this many years, are generally worn out or suffer from cracked solder joints. To rehab these boards, I replace all connectors including the .156 headers, the 5V filter cap (12,000uf), the HV trim pot, update the grounds for the HV and 5V caps, and jump test point 1 to test point 3 which eliminates the brown wire jumper connection in the female housing.
See: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Solenoid_Driver_Upgrades
If you've wiggled connectors and things got better/worse, it's time to repin both sides of those connectors, just as Freeplay40 suggests.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Update on progress....
What I have done:
Replaced connectors on small board above the transformer
resoldered all .156 header pins on all boards
inspected/repined .100 connectors on J4 (both mpu and solenoid boards)
traced continuity from the back of both the mpu and solenoid boards
tested resistor 31 (shows same ohms as 27 which is the left sling shot)
resoldered the leads on Q11

repairs included the machine is doing a full reset, rt side flipper (loose connection at the coil), all tones work as they should.

Everything on the pin is working correctly except the rt sling shot.....

One observation is after the machine has been turned off a while the sling will work momentarily right after the machine has just been turned on. It will only work a few times, has never made it through an entire game. In fact, it rarely makes it through one ball. The switch is good because the chime works and points are give each time it is hit, but no right sling. I've tried to determine what the "3081 predriver is" but I can't find it. Thanks for any help or advice to get this thing working.

#25 8 years ago

Sounds like you have to at least reflow solder, if not replace headers, for the .100 SDB pins. From your notes you say you reflowed the .156 headers but not the .100 ones?

#26 8 years ago
Quoted from westofrome:

Sounds like you have to at least reflow solder, if not replace headers, for the .100 SDB pins. From your notes you say you reflowed the .156 headers but not the .100 ones?

Correct. I did reflow a couple of them but not all. I inspected with a magnifying glass and all look very good

#27 8 years ago

Specifically reflow J5 pin 14 on the SDB (or just replace the header) and repin the J5 connector. It sounds like you already reflowed the header, actually (.156) but from your list you didn't repin the J5 connector, correct?

snsschem_(resized).jpgsnsschem_(resized).jpg

#28 8 years ago
Quoted from westofrome:

Specifically reflow J5 pin 14 on the SDB (or just replace the header) and repin the J5 connector. It sounds like you already reflowed the header, actually (.156) but from your list you didn't repin the J5 connector, correct?
snsschem_(resized).jpg

Yes, I reflowed the solder on the header pin. I did not repin the J5 connector.......I assumed it was good because when I short the Q11 transistor the coil fires every time. I thought this connector was the "outgoing" connector to the coil so working with the Q11 transistor proved that it was okay????

#29 8 years ago

You say the coil fires when you first start playing a game, though, and then stops. So I'm guessing heat/vibration of gameplay may cause that connection go from good to shaky. I'd repin (just pin J5-14 if you want) to make sure that's not the cause.

#30 8 years ago

PS you said shorting the transistor fires the coil every time, but I'm wondering if this is before or after significant gameplay.

#31 8 years ago
Quoted from westofrome:

PS you said shorting the transistor fires the coil every time, but I'm wondering if this is before or after significant gameplay.

I will repin, easy to do....... the coil fires every time before or after significant gameplay.

#32 8 years ago

update......When I got home this evening I switched the solenoid board out of my Vector pin and put it in the Strikes and Spares, it worked perfectly. Played several games with no fail. At least I know the mpu board is good, and my connectors are good. I again went back to my original board and checked the solder pins, I also measured resistance across the R31 resistor, as well as the resistance across CR11. All seem to be fine. I also checked (?) U3 by placing my black lead on the ground and finding resistance across each pin. They are the same as one of the other 3081chips. Not sure if this is a correct way to test this chip. At any rate, still no right sling shot with the original board. What could possibly be next? Do I need to send this board off for professional repair?

#33 8 years ago

I would at least replace the J5 header on the SDB before sending it off. I'm not sure what else makes sense if that one coil is the only one that's intermittent.

#34 8 years ago

Play the game until the coil fails.
Connect a jumper to SDB TP6.
CAREFULLY tap the other end to the Base of the driver tranny. Did it fire?

#35 8 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Play the game until the coil fails.
Connect a jumper to SDB TP6.
CAREFULLY tap the other end to the Base of the driver tranny. Did it fire?

Good call, it could be a loose joint on the transistor rather than the header, and playing shakes the connection.

#36 8 years ago

Quit beating around the bush and replace all of your connectors. Swapping a board is not a good way to test for connector problems.

#37 8 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Play the game until the coil fails.
Connect a jumper to SDB TP6.
CAREFULLY tap the other end to the Base of the driver tranny. Did it fire?

What exactly is the "Base of the driver tranny"?

#38 8 years ago

Here's your circuit isolated:

SnS_right_kicker_1_(resized).pngSnS_right_kicker_1_(resized).png

So here we see that the right slingshot ON wire goes to board A3 (the solenoid driver/regulator board), connector J5 pin 14; wire color 83

SnS_right_kicker_2_(resized).pngSnS_right_kicker_2_(resized).png

We know this because

SnS_right_kicker_3_(resized).pngSnS_right_kicker_3_(resized).png

Now back at the SDB/R A3 J5 Pin 14 goes to Q11. Electronically, the banded end of CR11 is the base of the transistor. That is where you will tap your jumper.

SnS_right_kicker_4_(resized).pngSnS_right_kicker_4_(resized).png

The CR will be labeled on the board as well as the tranny. "Some folks calls em transistors...I call em trannys...uhm..."

#39 8 years ago

We got yer tranny right here

35547429001_2601341637001_005-PorterRidge_(resized).jpg35547429001_2601341637001_005-PorterRidge_(resized).jpg

#40 8 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Here's your circuit isolated:
SnS_right_kicker_1_(resized).png
So here we see that the right slingshot ON wire goes to board A3 (the solenoid driver/regulator board), connector J5 pin 14; wire color 83
SnS_right_kicker_2_(resized).png
We know this because
SnS_right_kicker_3_(resized).png
Now back at the SDB/R A3 J5 Pin 14 goes to Q11. Electronically, the banded end of CR11 is the base of the transistor. That is where you will tap your jumper.
SnS_right_kicker_4_(resized).png
The CR will be labeled on the board as well as the tranny. "Some folks calls em transistors...I call em trannys...uhm..."

Thanks for the post. I will try and update results.

#41 8 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Play the game until the coil fails.
Connect a jumper to SDB TP6.
CAREFULLY tap the other end to the Base of the driver tranny. Did it fire?

Yes, It fired. What should I do next?

#42 8 years ago

OK, you just proved the drive tranny is good and problem is upstream from there. Now we move to the transistor array chip (pre-driver) U3. In particular, pin 6.

Connect a jumper to Ground and carefully tap it to U3.6 Does solenoid fire?

#43 8 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

OK, you just proved the drive tranny is good and problem is upstream from there. Now we move to the transistor array chip (pre-driver) U3. In particular, pin 6.
Connect a jumper to Ground and carefully tap it to U3.6 Does solenoid fire?

No.....it does not fire. Sorry for the delay. Does this indicate a bad chip or short? You said to connect to a ground so I connected to TP8 GND and then counted up to number 6 on the right side of the chip.

#44 8 years ago
Quoted from Sonora70:

No.....it does not fire. Sorry for the delay. Does this indicate a bad chip or short? You said to connect to a ground so I connected to TP8 GND and then counted up to number 6 on the right side of the chip.

I think you grounded the wrong leg of the chip. For U3, pin 1 is top left. That is what that little divot in the top of the chip signifies, pin 1. Then count down the left side to 6.

Ground that pin 6. Any action?

SnS_SDB_U3_pins_(resized).jpgSnS_SDB_U3_pins_(resized).jpg

#45 8 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

I think you grounded the wrong leg of the chip. For U3, pin 1 is top left. That is what that little divot in the top of the chip signifies, pin 1. Then count down the left side to 6.
Ground that pin 6. Any action?

SnS_SDB_U3_pins_(resized).jpg

That is the one I grounded. The notch and the number1 are on the bottom. 1 being on the bottom rt side.

#46 8 years ago

20160113_200315_(resized).jpg20160113_200315_(resized).jpg

#47 8 years ago

Ah-so! You have a Stern board in there.

#48 8 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Ah-so! You have a Stern board in there.

If I did ground the correct spot and had no reaction...? Is there a short or bad chip?

#49 8 years ago

You need to take one more measurement. A little tricky. While holding pin 6 to ground, measure the voltage at the tranny collector. If it measures 0VDC, Replace U3. If the collector voltage is 5VDC with pin 6 grounded, and no solenoid action, replace CR11 diode.

Let us know what you discover.

SnS_schem_detail_(resized).pngSnS_schem_detail_(resized).png

#50 8 years ago

Props to cody for taking the time to make nice diagrams

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