Quoted from jamescardona:so next you want to rag on my code?
Nope. I'll take your response as the answer.
Quoted from jamescardona:so next you want to rag on my code?
Nope. I'll take your response as the answer.
Quoted from cal50:Pretty foolish analogy IMHO.
Its on par with asking how many types of cars someone has driven to gauge if they are a good driver.
Its a moot point.
Programming pinball machines is a niche market and is not a mainstream field. If it was more mainstream I am sure you would find some very talented people to raise the bar in coding but to assume its not possible is just silly.
No it's not. You have to understand how to program games to get the point. By your response you don't understand either. I never said it's not possible. I can see trying to explain this is a waste of time.
There are so many ways to go with this discussion, I don't know here to start: the legal issues, the supportability and maintainability issues, the branding issues, the consistent vs. variable deliverable (product) discussion, the profitability conversation.
Does Stern release a NIB hardware-only "shell" and tell the community to start coding? How do they sell that? Remember, part of Stern's Intellectual Property is in that code. A lot of the code is common across the platform (many different machines spanning several years). If they make the code open-source, they have changed their go-to-market strategy entirely. And, for what? Increased profits? Highly doubtful. How many of you own iOS devices? Talk about a closed system. I'm sure Apple would be successful if they release iOS as open-source.
It sucks that folks have NIBs sitting for months/years waiting for updated code (disclaimer: I am not one). And, I realize how cool it sounds to open up the code and let the community edit/change the rules. Believe me, I would dabble in changing the rules of my machines.
But, how do you separate the software from the hardware of the machine? What part is Stern, what part is "other"? Theoretically, every particular machine could be brilliant, or that same machine could be crap due to the code. How many variants of the code would there be? If you think playing pinball in the wild is a crap-shoot *now*, good luck when you have 100s of variants out there.
Just some food for thought. I am too lazy to elaborate on each of the topics. Free free to bash!
I think I'm going to hit the gym, then grab a beer and play some pinball!
Post edited by Olddragon
Post edited by Olddragon : Spelling typo
Quoted from Olddragon:There are so many ways to go with this discussion, I don't know here to start: the legal issues, the supportability and maintainability issues, the branding issues, the consistent vs. variable deliverable (product) discussion, the profitability conversation.
Does Stern release a NIB hardware-only "shell" and tell the community to start coding? How do they sell that? Remember, part of Stern's Intellectual Property is in that code. A lot of the code is common across the platform (many different machines spanning several years). If they make the code open-source, they have changed their go-to-market strategy entirely. And, for what? Increased profits? Highly doubtful. How many of you own iOS devices? Talk about a closed system. I'm sure Apple would be successful if they release iOS as open-source.
It sucks that folks have NIBs sitting for months/years waiting for updated code (disclaimer: I am not one). And, I realize how cool it sounds to open up the code and let the community edit/change the rules. Believe me, I would dabble in changing the rules of my machines.
But, how do you separate the software from the hardware of the machine? What part is Stern, what part is "other"? Theoretically, every particular machine could be brilliant, or that same machine could be crap due to the code. How many variants of the code would there be? If you think playing pinball in the wild is a crap-shoot *now*, good luck when you have 100s of variants out there.
Just some food for thought. I am too lazy to elaborate on each of the topics. Free free to bash!
I think I'm going to hit the gym, then grab a beer and play some pinball!
Post edited by Olddragon
Post edited by Olddragon : Spelling typo
Sure iOS is closed source (although the kernel is still Darwin which is open source). They have also released an SDK - why there are 1 million+ apps. Also, folks have jailbroken the os to build "unauthorized apps". On the other hand Android is fully open source, you can fork it and do whatever you want with it. Many have. Google doesn't sell it. Although the versions on your phone have proprietary google apps on them.
Folks here are spending thousands of dollars on machines, then hundreds more to mod the hardware. Why not allow users to modify software of something they own. Seems to be common sense. Release it under a non permissive license so it could never be commercialized and require the end user to get the assets from their own machine.
I don't see why anyone here wouldn't want freedom to do what they want with something they own.
Quoted from fertel:I don't see why anyone here wouldn't want freedom to do what they want with something they own.
For more than 80 years, pinball machines were designed to go on location. To appeal to as wide of an audience as possible. Because operators still buy more games than home buyers, that's still how they're designed. Playing on location with friends is much more fun than modding your game alone in your basement. How many threads on the front page here talk about gameplay right now? The playing forum has a grand total of 1 new post since yesterday. It's a forum about games, but nobody is talking about the game. What's wrong with this picture? Now you want to spend hours more modding the code so that a flasher goes off when you shoot the right ramp?
They already have to finish the software (eventually) for location games. They're also about to switch over to SAM 2, which has been in development for years. I get that a bunch of you guys want this, but take it from an old dude, it's not good for the hobby and it's not going to happen at Stern any time soon. That's not what pinball is about.
Quoted from phishrace:it's not good for the hobby
Having to support OSS could definitely be a burden for Stern. I personally think that folks can be drawn into pinball ownership based on the fact that they can hack on their own machine. That's my opinion. I could have a very skewed view. I'm a young guy who got introduced to pinball 2 years ago when we got a tron in my tech startup/co-working office. I know of at least 2-3 other tech startups in nyc that have a pinball in them. These offices are filled with programmers who love to tinker with these sorts of things and a lot of them are starting to get into and play a lot of pinball.
That being said disallowing operators to install modded versions of the software is doable. Stern would just need to apply the correct license to the source. How they enforce it is another matter (only versions digitally signed by stern could accept money etc...) This is very akin to the way google licenses Android.
On another note It seems as though 80% of stern's sales are going into collectors homes:
“There are more collectors today,” says Mr. Stern, 67 and CEO of the company. He estimates that 80 percent of his company's domestic sales go into homes. “More people are getting into the hobby of it.”
I tend to think it would be very good for the hobby and would probably be a big win for stern. Even if it takes them some time to sort it out.
By the way, early on JJ told me to my face that his code would be open source and I spoke to him about working on it. That obviously never happened. I can understand why he changed his mind but for what it's worth he was going in that direction in the beginning.
I here a lot of "I want". Sure, I want to be able to change the code in my machines as well.
That's not the point. The question is: why would Stern want to do this? Why would they give away their IP? Are they going to increase their wallet-share? Are they going to increase their market penetration? Are they going to solve world hunger? Ok, that last one is obviously not going to happen.
Let me put it another way: Stern could not sell their machines at their current price levels if they opened up there code. I will bet a $1 that the community would scream that they could build better code than Stern and want to buy "hardware-only" or the "LE-lite" (see what I did there?) for thousands less than they sell for now.
Unless I missed it, I have not seen in this thread a business reason Stern would want to make their code open source.
There's no compelling reason for Stern to do this.
Quoted from Clawhammer:Part of what makes Lyman a good programmer is his talent and experience as a pinball player. I'm sure there are many other people that could do what Lyman does as far the actual coding is concerned but when it comes to rule design he's one of the best.
+1
He has passion for it. When you pair a smart person up with their passion, amazing things happen.
Quoted from fertel:I personally think that folks can be drawn into pinball ownership based on the fact that they can hack on their own machine. That's my opinion.
Can't disagree with that. Not enough folks in that market though. There isn't enough wealth in this country for Stern to double or triple their output on home sales alone. Pinball machines in the home are very expensive luxury items. Only the location market can double or triple sales.
You played on location lately? I hear location play is picking up in your town. I see two different leagues in NYC and about five in the state on the IFPA website. I missed league last night (Warriors), but I played down at the mall on the way home from work today.
Quoted from chessiv:No it's not. You have to understand how to program games to get the point. By your response you don't understand either. I never said it's not possible. I can see trying to explain this is a waste of time.
Yea, it really is but it's your opinion.
I never wrote code for anything pinball related but learned enough assy. to do a specific task. There is a big difference in someone that creates a code base and editing it for enhanced operation.
Nucore would be one example of modified code vs the original architect code, you modified the original code so should I say you know little about coding because of no original content?
Someone hacked the dongle and I would bet they never coded an original pinball Rom / code either.
There are lots of talented people out there not all coding pinball machines.
Quoted from cal50:Yea, it really is but it's your opinion.
I never wrote code for anything pinball related but learned enough assy. to do a specific task. There is a big difference in someone that creates a code base and editing it for enhanced operation.
Nucore would be one example of modified code vs the original architect code, you modified the original code so should I say you know little about coding because of no original content?
Someone hacked the dongle and I would bet they never coded an original pinball Rom / code either.
There are lots of talented people out there not all coding pinball machines.
Not one bit of original code was modified so again, you really don't know what you're talking about. And hacking code has nothing to do with game programming so what's your point?
Quoted from chessiv:How many games have you written or been a part of and if you have how many have been at the top of the charts?
Uh, I think you might be over estimating the task of developing pinball code... We're talking rules, not art, not dots...code.
I am an embedded developer for an automotive platform and (almost) everyone I work with could write the code to rival the average stern game given a reasonable amount of time and resources.
...and since you asked, Crackdown, Perfect Dark Zero, Forza Motorsport, Forza Motorsport 2, Gears of War, Halo Wars and many others.
Quoted from ChrisVW:Uh, I think you might be over estimating the task of developing pinball code... We're talking rules, not art, not dots...code.
I am an embedded developer for an automotive platform and (almost) everyone I work with could write the code to rival the average stern game given a reasonable amount of time and resources.
...and since you asked, Crackdown, Perfect Dark Zero, Forza Motorsport, Forza Motorsport 2, Gears of War, Halo Wars and many others.
I'm not overestimating the task. Anyone programmer can write pinball code. I'm suggesting that most programmers without game experience probably wouldn't generate fun code. Of the ones that can there would be a small percentage that could create really fun code and a much much smaller percentage than that could generate code that was as fun or original as Lyman or Keith can generate.
Impressive list of games.
Quoted from chessiv:I'm not overestimating the task. Anyone programmer can write pinball code. I'm suggesting that most programmers without game experience probably wouldn't generate fun code. Of the ones that can there would be a small percentage that could create really fun code and a much much smaller percentage than that could generate code that was as fun or original as Lyman or Keith can generate.
Impressive list of games.
For what it's worth I agree with your argument. A small percentage would actually have the passion and talent to write some amazing code, but that about sums up Stern in the last decade in my opinion. Most games are just ok but a few are stellar. I would just like it to be more accessible to new devs so we can find that next Lyman.
Thanks for the complement. I wish I got to pick what I worked on otherwise Viva Piñata would NOT be on my list
Post edited by ChrisVW : I accidentally a word
Quoted from ChrisVW:I wish I got to pick what I worked on otherwise Viva Piñata would NOT be on my list
Project to project and make the best of it. Don't you love the game business
Quoted from chessiv:Not one bit of original code was modified so again, you really don't know what you're talking about. And hacking code has nothing to do with game programming so what's your point?
You missed it completely.
Quoted from ChrisVW:I would just like it to be more accessible to new devs so we can find that next Lyman.
Stern's recent new hires are new developers.
http://www.pinballnews.com/news/sternhires.html
http://www.pinballnews.com/news/tanio.html
Both are young and both come from outside the industry. That hasn't happened in this industry in what, 20 years? There's your new blood. Waison took way too much crap here for XM, which will never be an A list game no matter who works on the code. Considering the undeserved welcome he got, I'm surprised Tanio signed up. I know Tanio a little and was very pleased to hear he was hired Stern.
We should be thankful for those changes, not begging for open source. We should also be thankful for the run Stern is on. While XM and AVE will never be A list games, they aren't IJ4, CSI or NBA bad. ST, AC/DC and MET are all outstanding games, and MET ain't even done yet. And you guys want more? Seems greedy to me.
Quoted from chessiv:I'm not overestimating the task. Anyone programmer can write pinball code. I'm suggesting that most programmers without game experience probably wouldn't generate fun code. Of the ones that can there would be a small percentage that could create really fun code and a much much smaller percentage than that could generate code that was as fun or original as Lyman or Keith can generate.
Impressive list of games.
With all due respect, this industry is tiny in comparison to the world population.
There are bound to be talented potential genius pinball programmers out there, and many of them may not even know a thing about pinball.
The reason we deify Lyman is that he's done really good games, and he's easily identifiable in the small pond of working pinball programmers.
There's simply no reason to believe that others couldn't come from even right here on Pinside that could create games on par with his. That's not taking anything away from him; it's more of a commentary on how small the industry is/was.
There are probably a thousand times more working video game programmers than there are pinball programmers. I went to a school that churned out hundreds of graduates in Computer Science (a top 3 school in the country for CS) and most of them wanted to work in video games.
I guess my argument is "Let some new people try." And I don't even care how old/young they are. Col. Sanders didn't even start Kentucky Fried Chicken until he was in his 70s.
Quoted from chadderack:I went to a school that churned out hundreds of graduates in Computer Science (a top 3 school in the country for CS) and most of them wanted to work in video games.
First - let me say I completely agree with the "Let someone new try" stance. Without bringing new blood in, eventually the knowledge goes away with the masters.
I've interviewed and hired a decent number of CS graduates, and I can tell you that 90% of them lack the kind of understanding and creativity it would take to write a *FUN* pinball game. Not to mention most of them are cocky as hell too, with nothing to back that up.
One of my favorites was a guy who described himself as a 9 on a scale of 1-10, with 1 being someone who just finished a "FORTRAN for Dummies" book, and a 10 being Dennis Ritchie/Linux Torvalds. Then he couldn't define polymorphism for me. There are a lot that haven't even been able to tell me the difference between big and little endian.
Another was a guy who told us he could do anything we do with "20 minutes and a laptop".
To contrast these examples, the best computer scientist on my team never went to college. To give you some context for that, I have some brilliant people on my team: a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering, the VP of a software company we aquired, among others. He alone has more imagination and creativity than a dozen average CS graduates.
Quoted from chessiv:I'm not overestimating the task. Anyone programmer can write pinball code. I'm suggesting that most programmers without game experience probably wouldn't generate fun code. Of the ones that can there would be a small percentage that could create really fun code and a much much smaller percentage than that could generate code that was as fun or original as Lyman or Keith can generate.
I agree. I think what you are getting at is there is a difference between talent in game design and just pure programming ability.
Quoted from ChrisVW:Thanks for the complement. I wish I got to pick what I worked on otherwise Viva Piñata would NOT be on my list
I loved Viva Pinata! My kids and I spent loads of hours playing when they were younger. Fun game, definitely different from the norm.
Quoted from phishrace:Better than Lyman? You can't be serious?
Writing pinball code is unlike writing any other kind of code. It takes creativity as well as programming skills. Sure there are thousands of programmers out there, but none of them will ever be remotely close to Lyman's skills. Coding software for Microsoft isn't the same as writing code for pinball. Not even video game programming is similar. If you're not sure about this, ask Tanio Klyce the next time you see him.
Many types of software require creativity…not just pinball. Have you looked at the software developed for modern/mainstream gaming platforms? The guys who write those graphics/simulations are programming animals and the only reason they don't gravitate toward pinball software is they'd have to take a huge pay cut (and probably aren't interested in it anyway).
This idea that Lyman is "the best" pinball programmer may be true given the cast of characters @ Stern, however the implication that programmers from other disciplines couldn't do his work is just wrong. No doubt, being a world class player gives him a great perspective on DESIGNING the rulesets, however he shouldn't have to do all the "heavy lifting" on the programming side.
I won't argue that most comp sci. grads not being up to par. You either have the knack or you don't and no amount of schooling is going to help much.
I really think that all the controls need to be setup with something like a P-ROC and have a laptop control everything. This I believe would be good for the operator since he could just swap out laptops instead of trying to narrow down whats wrong with the boards and modders could basically do whatever they want and program the pinball in whatever they want. On top of that, it would be easier to find programmers to write could for the pinballs because they could do it in C/C++ or Java or whatever and probably be able to put together pinball ball editor programs to allow for people to change things without needing to know a lot about programming. It would not be hard to imagine that it would be easy for Stern to develop some sort of package that made it simple to setup a pin. It would make it simpler on their end and shift the focus from writing clean code to writing interesting and fun code. There really isn't a lot that changes from pin to pin so the package could be reused over a over. People are already running pinball machines with a P-Roc and using a mame emulator so just gutting a machine and running with a laptop isn't a giant leap of any kind.
I really too think that if you are going to bring LCD screens into the picture, too, there are amazing things that hobbyist could do with the machine everything was controlled by a pc.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:First - let me say I completely agree with the "Let someone new try" stance. Without bringing new blood in, eventually the knowledge goes away with the masters.
I've interviewed and hired a decent number of CS graduates, and I can tell you that 90% of them lack the kind of understanding and creativity it would take to write a *FUN* pinball game. Not to mention most of them are cocky as hell too, with nothing to back that up.
One of my favorites was a guy who described himself as a 9 on a scale of 1-10, with 1 being someone who just finished a "FORTRAN for Dummies" book, and a 10 being Dennis Ritchie/Linux Torvalds. Then he couldn't define polymorphism for me. There are a lot that haven't even been able to tell me the difference between big and little endian.
Another was a guy who told us he could do anything we do with "20 minutes and a laptop".
To contrast these examples, the best computer scientist on my team never went to college. To give you some context for that, I have some brilliant people on my team: a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering, the VP of a software company we aquired, among others. He alone has more imagination and creativity than a dozen average CS graduates.
Everything you say is reasonable.
More and more, a list of games you've coded becomes analogous to an artist's portfolio. You either have it or you don't.
The best way to show that you can be the next Lyman is to just start doing it, like Scott is doing with WOOLY. I would like to give it a shot at some point, too... right now too busy with school (art school, actually).
But the point there is that we need people to start off on ridiculous but cool projects like Scott and we need them to succeed. That is, if we want good pinball games in the future... well beyond the careers of Steve and Lyman and Pat and George.
To me the discussion is not really about whether a given Stern programer is good, great or even mediocre, it's about the time and or will power to revisit a game after it's been played for awhile.
Doing just about anything is about making assumptions and then working with those assumptions as a framework.
If you make some assumptions that aren't exactly correct then the framework produced is somewhat flawed.
You see this in pinball games all the time, a certain shot can be done over and over to get the high score while other shots are not tried because the risk-to-reward is not there. This is especially true in home use, because someone can play for hours and hours to figure out the game (for free), something that couldn't be accomplished easily in the arcade environment. Essentially, someone "thought" that the rule set was really good, or they only had limited time to work on the rules and that's what was released. Only later did we find out that a minor tweak or 2 could make the scoring much more balanced or to eliminate a bug that no one knew existed.
Just because a pinball programer is though of as a "God", doesn't mean his or her work can't be improved upon.
Robert
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