(Topic ID: 298309)

Cleopatra extra ball question

By BubbaK

2 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 32 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by BubbaK
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

6FCEF25F-5E80-4602-991A-A52755A1A317 (resized).jpeg
DA201ECB-C4ED-4767-9775-675FAF3628FF (resized).jpeg
40477250-E566-471E-B83B-01A41449A64D (resized).jpeg
7C406941-877D-42CA-B3AE-3AC27AB73760 (resized).jpeg
E8576A24-BB98-45DC-BCD9-E05CB9408420 (resized).jpeg
E336DA1D-84CA-453A-8E14-498128541966 (resized).jpeg
B33B81AB-828E-48B2-A524-129703C66A28 (resized).jpeg
69CB0236-E6B0-46BB-88BF-5EFB97E5292A (resized).jpeg
AS Relay cams (resized).jpg
pop switch (resized).jpg
diodes (resized).jpg
FF772012-A072-40EA-BB11-9B193AB087C4 (resized).jpeg
A1C9EE04-A6F3-4FBF-A4F6-DD39B308639B (resized).jpeg
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
cleo schematic (resized).jpg

#1 2 years ago

I've got 2 problems with my EM Cleopatra. I have the free game set at 100K, 120K, 180K. Player 1 does not register a free game at these scores. P2, P3, P4 do register. I'm not sure what to look for on the schematics. I cleaned and checked the player unit contacts for P1 and didn't help.

The other problem I noticed is that the "shoot again" light doesn't activate for any player. The switch lights work and rotate as expected. The award just doesn't happen.

In this snippet, what is the purpose of the 50mfd capacitor on the extra ball relay in row 10? and diodes and resistors? This game doe have DC flippers and pops...

cleo schematic (resized).jpgcleo schematic (resized).jpg
#2 2 years ago

What setting is the 'Extra Ball' and 'Replay' adjustment set at? Is the game set on Replay? If so there will be no extra balls on scoring levels.

#3 2 years ago

Reply sent in private message

#4 2 years ago
Quoted from Darcy:

What setting is the 'Extra Ball' and 'Replay' adjustment set at? Is the game set on Replay? If so there will be no extra balls on scoring levels.

The game is set on extra ball. It worked originally and it still works on all but player 1.

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

The game is set on extra ball. It worked originally and it still works on all but player 1.

Looking at the wiring diagram you posted, check the "J" switch stack. The orange - grey wire needs to be looked at, from the player unit through the game to the Extra Ball or Replay setting, including a good cleaning of the interconnecting Jones Plug. There could be a broken wire, a cold or cracked solder connection at the Player Unit.

#6 2 years ago

I was wrong above.. The game is set on credit, not extra ball.

So I played around with this tonight. J1 looked good, but I cleaned it anyway. No luck. I checked the wires around and nothing is broken or bad solder. I cleaned the player unit P1 switches. Still nothing. After looking around, I started remembering this was the first EM I ever worked on and didn't do everything properly. This game is on my list to pull it apart and give it the proper tune up and cleaning. I pulled the Jones plugs in the back box, including the player 1 score reel jones and cleaned them all well as there was some oxidation. That ended up fixing the extra credit issue. This is now working..

I still have an issue with the "shoot again bonus." The light will come on when the bonus is active, but the switch doesn't trigger. I know the switches work because its the same switch used for the free game bonus an that works. There is a capacitor across the Extra ball relay coil and a diode set and resistor in front of the capacitor. When I activate the relay manually, the bonus works when you hit the switch. I checked the motor 4b switches. Even removed the 4c switches to get a good look and clean. Not sure how to troubleshoot this one.

1 week later
#7 2 years ago

If I'm understanding the meaning of your many pronouns, check to make sure this switch on the Extra ball relay (X) is opening.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#8 2 years ago

Sorry on the terminology confusion. I'll have a look at the Extra ball relay closer. When all 5 rollovers are completed, the bonus is an extra ball. It alternates between 2 playfield targets. When hit, the player is awarded an extra ball.. My game is getting to the point that the lights alternate, but hitting the appropriate target doesn't trigger the extra ball relay. The extra ball relay has diodes, a resistor and a capacitor in the circuit. Not sure why.

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

he lights alternate, but hitting the appropriate target doesn't trigger the extra ball relay

Then ignore my post and schematic above.

Does the Extra Ball relay activate when you set the game to 3 ball play, complete the rollover sequence, and hit the lit target?

#10 2 years ago

I just tested it, and it does work on 3 ball. I cleaned the jones plug and put back to 5 ball and no good. Looking at the drawing, it looks as if its not supposed to happen in 5 ball? I'm going to have a better look at the jones plug and socket. Seems as though everything is working to that point.

#11 2 years ago

I've got it working properly. Jones socket on the 5 ball is fine. only 3 wires on the socket. Just looking around, I found a few wire terminals that were touching on the KS relay, so I straightened them up and cleaned that up. Still nothing. I pulled the A relay, cleaned up the contacts and adjusted a few of the M/B's and now its working. Still not really sure why the 3-5 ball difference if the A relay is common to both. I also noticed, and now I remember, the extra ball is active when either rollovers or drop targets sequences are complete.

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Does the Extra Ball relay activate when you set the game to 3 ball play, complete the rollover sequence, and hit the lit target?

Quoted from BubbaK:

it does work on 3 ball

Quoted from BubbaK:

not really sure why the 3-5 ball difference

Check this switch on the AS style Rollover Spot Control relay (KS)

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#13 2 years ago

Thanks Howard.. That makes sense. What is (1 : 1) next to KS?

1 year later
#14 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Check this switch on the AS style Rollover Spot Control relay (KS)
[quoted image]

HowardR

Bumping this old post and specifically looking at post #12 Howard R. I've been restoring my Cleo and it would appear someone removed the diodes, resistor and capacitor for the Extra Ball circuit. And not only that they cut off the leaf switches at the pop bumpers that step the KS relay.

I'm assuming KS 1 1 is the position? You can just set the KS relay on the 6th or 7th position to get the Special and Extra ball to light through the alternating circuit. But if KS is on position 1 no Extra Ball will light as you stated above. A properly functioning KS is required for lighting the Extra Ball target on the playfield.

Can you explain why they used this circuit design? Never seen Gottlieb use this before but it does have a fair amount of 24VDC rectified voltage. I'd like to get mine set back to operating correctly and a properly functioning KS is required. Do I need the diodes, capacitor and resistor?

A pic of what it looks like under the playfield is found at;
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/picture-or-explanation-needed-for-gottlieb-cleopatra-em

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the pop's are 24VDC and assuming the voltage coming from the pops to drive the KS needs the cap, resistor and diodes to keep the AC from entering the circuit?

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from Garrett:

I'm assuming KS 1 1 is the position?

Identify the particular switch by wire colors. KS (1 : 1) probably means that it's one of the switches activated by one of the rotating black cams.

Quoted from Garrett:

Can you explain why they used this circuit design? Never seen Gottlieb use this before but it does have a fair amount of 24VDC rectified voltage.

MarkG is the real expert on pinball electronics, and he has a repair clinic this coming Friday: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/an-em-pinball-online-repair-clinic/page/4#post-7287251

But I'm pretty sure the electronic components in my post above that you asked about, make up a delay circuit to slow the activation of the Extra Ball (X) relay.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cleopatra-extra-ball-question#post-6455137

#16 1 year ago

BubbaK

Can you tell me where the cap, diodes and resistor is mounted on your Cleo? Is it under the playfield?

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from Garrett:

BubbaK
Can you tell me where the cap, diodes and resistor is mounted on your Cleo? Is it under the playfield?

I'll pop open tonight and take some good pics of how its set up. I just looked through the pics I have here and I don't have anything showing it.

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

I'll pop open tonight and take some good pics of how its set up. I just looked through the pics I have here and I don't have anything showing it.

Thank you.

#19 1 year ago

Howard, you were correct about it being a delay circuit. The KS is also tied into the Alternating Relay.

So technically I don’t need the circuit but the Extra Ball will always be lit.

The answer was on the instructions
A1C9EE04-A6F3-4FBF-A4F6-DD39B308639B (resized).jpegA1C9EE04-A6F3-4FBF-A4F6-DD39B308639B (resized).jpeg

FF772012-A072-40EA-BB11-9B193AB087C4 (resized).jpegFF772012-A072-40EA-BB11-9B193AB087C4 (resized).jpeg
#20 1 year ago

Thats interesting.. I'm on 5 ball also. When I get all rollovers or drops, the 5000 and the right Shoot again either come on or the left shoot again. It alternates with the kickers. When all drops and rollovers are done, the special alternates instead of shoot again. Once a set is completed, one is always on, but they do rotate.

Here is a pic of my diode setup. Its under the 3-5 ball plug (with the pf up).

While I was looking at the pop bumper wiring since I may try to make another game DC, I noticed one of the switch blades is cut on all 3 pops.. Do your switches look like this? There is a wire soldered to the cut switch. I don't have time to dig out the paperwork right now, but I thought it was strange.

diodes (resized).jpgdiodes (resized).jpgpop switch (resized).jpgpop switch (resized).jpg
#21 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

KS (1 : 1) probably means that it's one of the switches activated by one of the rotating black cams.

Agreed. The ratio (N: 1) notation indicates how often the switch changes as the KS relay fires. I think that the "1: 1" indicates that the switch changes position each time the KS relay fires (e.g. open, closed, open, closed...) using the C-8752 cam below. "4: 1" indicates that the switch changes every 4th time (e.g. open, open, open, closed) using cam C-10356. There were several cams of different shapes available:
AS Relay cams (resized).jpgAS Relay cams (resized).jpg

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

Thats interesting.. I'm on 5 ball also. When I get all rollovers or drops, the 5000 and the right Shoot again either come on or the left shoot again. It alternates with the kickers. When all drops and rollovers are done, the special alternates instead of shoot again. Once a set is completed, one is always on, but they do rotate.
Here is a pic of my diode setup. Its under the 3-5 ball plug (with the pf up).
While I was looking at the pop bumper wiring since I may try to make another game DC, I noticed one of the switch blades is cut on all 3 pops.. Do your switches look like this? There is a wire soldered to the cut switch. I don't have time to dig out the paperwork right now, but I thought it was strange.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Yes, exactly. I originally thought someone cut them but I now believe they broke off. The switches on the pops are what drive the KS relay. I have new switches coming this week and will post the result.

I just went through the playfield when I cleared it. I’ll check again but do not see any evidence of screw holes in the wood around the 3/5 ball plug. Will post a pic tomorrow.

One last bug to chase down but have played quite a few games. It is such a great pin. It’s crazy stupid fast but with accurate shots now. The chimes ringing that fast is just amazing.

Bury me in this one.
69CB0236-E6B0-46BB-88BF-5EFB97E5292A (resized).jpeg69CB0236-E6B0-46BB-88BF-5EFB97E5292A (resized).jpeg

#23 1 year ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

Thats interesting.. I'm on 5 ball also. When I get all rollovers or drops, the 5000 and the right Shoot again either come on or the left shoot again. It alternates with the kickers. When all drops and rollovers are done, the special alternates instead of shoot again. Once a set is completed, one is always on, but they do rotate.
Here is a pic of my diode setup. Its under the 3-5 ball plug (with the pf up).
While I was looking at the pop bumper wiring since I may try to make another game DC, I noticed one of the switch blades is cut on all 3 pops.. Do your switches look like this? There is a wire soldered to the cut switch. I don't have time to dig out the paperwork right now, but I thought it was strange.
[quoted image][quoted image]

What serial number is on your cabinet? Mine is 01221.

There are guide holes for the delay circuit but they have never been used on my playfield. There are no spare wires hanging or tucked into the harness. It does not appear to have been installed on this one.

The switches that drive the KS stepper are all sheared away on my pops. It’s understandable.
B33B81AB-828E-48B2-A524-129703C66A28 (resized).jpegB33B81AB-828E-48B2-A524-129703C66A28 (resized).jpegE336DA1D-84CA-453A-8E14-498128541966 (resized).jpegE336DA1D-84CA-453A-8E14-498128541966 (resized).jpeg

#24 1 year ago

Interesting.. I've got a later one. Mine is 08892. My pops do not alternate the KS. Only the kickers. Wonder if that circuit was deleted for a reason..

Good idea on those LEDs on the kickout. I did that to my "300".

#25 1 year ago

If you manually activate any 10 point bumper or kicker does the KS relay activate and rotate?

If I read the schematic correctly the bumpers and kickers should activate the Alternating relay. The pop bumpers activate the KS relay. They both actually work together as the KS will step through the Special, Extra Ball and Center 5K target and the Alternating relay lights either the left or right bullseye target.

Right now with the broken switches on the pops my KS does not step. If I get all drops or roll overs the extra ball at the bullseye lights up. The kickers/bumpers alternate either the light to the right or left bullseye. The Center Target then alternates on and off through the Alternating relay.

I believe the KS provides the random lighting of the extra ball as it steps through. I know on position 1 it does not light the extra ball bullseye. Will test it tomorrow with all drop targets down step the KS manually and for each KS position hit a bumper to see the what the Alternating relay does. Then complete all roll overs and step the KS. Hopefully the leaf switches arrive tomorrow.

#26 1 year ago

Last night, here is what I did.

All 5 drops. 10pt rotates between left bullseye or 5k and right bullseye.
All 5 drops and all 5 rollovers - 10pt rotates - left bullseye and right special and 5k right bullseye left special. The pops dont change. I didn't look at the KS to see what it was doing or if it moved.

The switch on the pops must have been disabled on purpose. I don't think they all broke. I'm curious to see what you get once its fixed.

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

Last night, here is what I did.
All 5 drops. 10pt rotates between left bullseye or 5k and right bullseye.
All 5 drops and all 5 rollovers - 10pt rotates - left bullseye and right special and 5k right bullseye left special. The pops dont change. I didn't look at the KS to see what it was doing or if it moved.
The switch on the pops must have been disabled on purpose. I don't think they all broke. I'm curious to see what you get once its fixed.

I am too.

I still believe they broke off due to use. I have my pops so tight and hot right now they are simply amazing. They fire extremely rapidly and would assume they broke due to fatigue. It's not like the factory would install the switches and wiring that isn't used, waste of time and money.

Looking at the schematic again this morning, the center pop drives the FS 00-90 match unit and the side pops drive the KS.

I'm still wondering why they included the delay circuit at some point. My pin did not have it's original schematics.

#28 1 year ago

BubbaK

When completing all roll overs or drop targets, the function of the FS relay is to alternately turn on and off the Extra Ball bullseye when either the right or left pop bumper is actuated. The FS reduces the frequency of the chance to earn the extra ball. And I agree. Without the KS, the Extra Ball option can be lit quickly and remains on, it just alternates left or right side. Too easy to get an Extra Ball right now. Not saying the table layout is easy but I like the FS in the circuit.

The Special and Center 5k target act as you see now. They only alternate through the Alternating relay.

I’m going to fix the left pop bumper now and try to record a video.

There is no need to fix the broken leaf switch on the center pop. It drives the FS 00-90 match relay but so does the 10 point relay. The center pop would cause the FS to machine gun and burn out the coil faster at any rate.

@HowardR

The delay circuit is to prevent….?
6FCEF25F-5E80-4602-991A-A52755A1A317 (resized).jpeg6FCEF25F-5E80-4602-991A-A52755A1A317 (resized).jpeg40477250-E566-471E-B83B-01A41449A64D (resized).jpeg40477250-E566-471E-B83B-01A41449A64D (resized).jpegDA201ECB-C4ED-4767-9775-675FAF3628FF (resized).jpegDA201ECB-C4ED-4767-9775-675FAF3628FF (resized).jpeg7C406941-877D-42CA-B3AE-3AC27AB73760 (resized).jpeg7C406941-877D-42CA-B3AE-3AC27AB73760 (resized).jpegE8576A24-BB98-45DC-BCD9-E05CB9408420 (resized).jpegE8576A24-BB98-45DC-BCD9-E05CB9408420 (resized).jpeg

#29 1 year ago

I get it now. I don't get the opportunity enough to hit it, so easier is better for me

#30 1 year ago

I got a great video a few minutes ago. I will try to post it in the morning.

The Extra Ball is actually way harder to score. It’s very cool at game speed.

#32 1 year ago

Wow.. good 1st ball. My shoot again lights alternate, but don't go out. Its one side or the other. For my skill level, that seems to work best and I'm going to leave it alone for now. Once I decide to do a tear down and rebuild, I might consider fixing it.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
From: $ 4.99
Cabinet - Decals
The Pinball Scientist
Decals
$ 5.95
Playfield - Protection
The Pinball Scientist
Protection
$ 15.00
Lighting
Space Coast Pinball
Lighting
From: $ 110.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
Shooter rods
$ 4.00
Playfield - Decals
UpKick Pinball
Decals
From: $ 5.95
Playfield - Protection
The Pinball Scientist
Protection

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cleopatra-extra-ball-question?hl=bubbak and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.