(Topic ID: 244974)

Clear Diamond Finish - Alternative to Spraymax 2K


By mark532011

4 months ago



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  • 47 posts
  • 17 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by mark532011
  • Topic is favorited by 19 Pinsiders

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    #1 4 months ago

    The Spraymax 2K cans of auto clear are an awesome product, however the extreme environmental requirements make it difficult for a casual restorer: see Pinside Link

    As an alternative, I have purchased a can of "Clear Diamond Finish" amazon.com link »
    diamond clear finish

    The spray stuff has a bunch of aerosols that make it tricky to use safely so I thought I would try the liquid. It seems people have had different results with various application styles so it was time for an experiment.

    I tried 3 different application methods: roller, brush and squirt bottle. I filmed it so you can see the application and how they went.

    After 24 hours of drying they were dry to the touch but I could still dent with a fingernail. My results came out decent. rollerbrushspray

    To sum up: Both the roller and brush method gave good results, good enough that they could be sanded and polished for a playfield. But it was a thick coat. The spray did not work well, however the cheap sprayer did not handle the thicker fluid and did not "mist" as it does with water, so the spray force was too high resulting in bubbles. It probable that a decent sprayer that resulted in a mist would give a decent coat.

    The results look good enough I will be trying this on my Target Pool playfield.

    #2 4 months ago

    I am following this.
    Question on the roller/brush application: do you think it would dry quicker with several thinner coats?

    #3 4 months ago

    I am also following this - thank you for taking the time to document your progress, mark532011.

    #4 4 months ago

    Interesting.

    #5 4 months ago

    It's an interesting product for sure. I will likely be ordering some in the near future for a side by side comparison.

    Just a note to readers here that the KBS Diamond Finish roll-on product used above is different than the KBS Diamond Finish Aerosol product, and the handing and health hazards are quite different between the two, despite the identical product name. KBS also seems to understate the required PPE to protect yourself from the toxicity of the component chemicals, and some of the marketing videos on their web site show application of the product without respiratory PPE. These marketing/application videos should not be confused with actual instructional/training videos, despite appearing as such. As with 2K, using any Diamond Finish product without minimum respiratory PPE is f@$^%!@ stupid, but who am I to tell anyone what to do?

    The canned/roll on product you are using is definitely safer than 2K, but even so, it is toxic to your brain and liver when inhaled. When using the liquid product, the minimum respiratory PPE is a full face respirator with cartridges marked OV. I have outlined the reasons why in this post: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-spraymax-2k-auto-clear-in-a-can-club/page/17#post-5019830

    The Aerosol-specific product carries similar dangers to 2K and has a nearly identical respiratory PPE requirement. When using the Diamond Finish Aerosol product, the minimum respiratory PPE is a full face mask with either a supplied air source or with OVP95/OVP100 cartridges on a *strict* short-time use 30-minute disposal regimen. I have outlined the reasons why in this post: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-spraymax-2k-auto-clear-in-a-can-club/page/17#post-5019871

    Keep flipping safely, everyone! Remember, organic solvents negatively affect response times, which is why all of us restorers are such lousy players. (We're bad drivers, too.)

    #6 4 months ago
    Quoted from semicolin:

    The canned/roll on product you are using is definitely safer than 2K, but even so, it is toxic to your brain and liver when inhaled. When using the liquid product, the minimum respiratory PPE is a full face respirator with cartridges marked OV.

    Are the OV cartridges not limited to the 30 minute time window (for the canned / roll-on product)?

    Quoted from mark532011:

    After 24 hours of drying they were dry to the touch but I could still dent with a fingernail. My results came out decent.

    Are you expecting it to harden further over time? Seems like an issue if it doesn't harden after 24 hours, no?

    #7 4 months ago

    As a painter , this was hard to watch. The brush was the best option, but you need to apply it as you would with paint , keep a wet edge and never try dabbing it after you lay it out.

    #8 4 months ago
    Quoted from harryhoudini:

    Are you expecting it to harden further over time? Seems like an issue if it doesn't harden after 24 hours, no?

    Even the 2-part stuff takes a week to get really hard. I doubt it is a fair test of hardness, the paper plate underneath is not dent-resistant

    #9 4 months ago
    Quoted from yellowghost:

    As a painter , this was hard to watch. The brush was the best option, but you need to apply it as you would with paint , keep a wet edge and never try dabbing it after you lay it out.

    It didn’t work as I intended as the plates moved around on me. I plan to video doing a playfield with it, hopefully it will give some more insight

    #10 4 months ago
    Quoted from mark532011:

    Even the 2-part stuff takes a week to get really hard. I doubt it is a fair test of hardness, the paper plate underneath is not dent-resistant

    OMG... I thought that was a piece of plastic under, lol. Do you happen to have anything similar to a playfield surface you can brush it on and test hardness?

    #11 4 months ago
    Quoted from harryhoudini:

    Are the OV cartridges not limited to the 30 minute time window (for the canned / roll-on product)?

    No, and I've explained exactly why, to you, and more than once. The short duration is because of specific chemicals found in 2K and KBS Diamond Finish Aerosol that aren't in KBS Diamond Finish roll-on. An OV cartridge is sufficient for regular-duration use for the roll-on product.

    I hate having to repeat myself again, but the full reasons why are outlined in this post: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-spraymax-2k-auto-clear-in-a-can-club/page/17#post-5019830

    Please don't also derail this thread with ridiculous PPE questions. You have been told what you need to know. Follow the advice or don't, I don't care. It's not this community that you have to negotiate your life with.

    -3
    #12 4 months ago
    Quoted from semicolin:

    No, and I've explained exactly why, to you, and more than once. The short duration is because of specific chemicals found in 2K and KBS Diamond Finish Aerosol that aren't in KBS Diamond Finish roll-on. An OV cartridge is sufficient for regular-duration use for the roll-on product.
    I hate having to repeat myself again, but the full reasons why are outlined in this post: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-spraymax-2k-auto-clear-in-a-can-club/page/17#post-5019830
    Please don't also derail this thread with ridiculous PPE questions. You have been told what you need to know. Follow the advice or don't, I don't care. It's not this community that you have to negotiate your life with.

    The specific question I asked here was not covered in the prior post you linked to. I was specifically wanting to know if I used the roll on product with a full face mask and OV cartridges if there was a "timeout" period on cartridge life like with the other cartridge needed for the SprayMax or aerosol products. Which you answered, so thank you. If you don't want to answer my questions, don't... there is no requirement and I won't feel bad. Someone else might know and I think the discussion on PPE is pertinent to this thread and product combination. Your opinion seems to differ and that is why it is nice that we are free to post here and discuss void of personal beliefs.

    #14 4 months ago

    Oh my God, I can't believe this is still going on, across multiple threads, after so many people told you to stop or move on.

    Quoted from harryhoudini:

    The specific question I asked here was not covered in the prior post you linked to.

    Yes, it was, right here, in that prior post regarding KBS roll-on:

    Quoted from semicolin:

    ...there is no N95 particulate filter, short-term use, or supplied air requirement indicated...

    And also here later, when I summarized it for you again:

    Quoted from semicolin:

    ...harryhoudini:
    2K: Supplied air, or Full mask + OVN95 cartridges new every 30 minutes
    KBS DiamondFinish roll on: Full mask + OV cartridges new every day
    KBS DiamondFinish Aerosol: Supplied air, or Full mask + OVP95 cartridges new every 30 minutes...

    I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

    Quoted from harryhoudini:

    If you don't want to answer my questions, don't... there is no requirement and I won't feel bad. Someone else might know and I think the discussion on PPE is pertinent to this thread and product combination. Your opinion seems to differ and that is why it is nice that we are free to post here and discuss void of personal beliefs.

    The reason why repeated "can I do this instead" or "can I get away with this scuba tank/holding my breath/putting a plastic bag over my head" replies are so bad is because people tend to read things that other people have considered doing and then take them as advice that they might also like to follow.

    My actual job includes determining situationally-appropriate training and respiratory PPE, based on what these products are made out of, and you're sitting there going "Well, that's just your opinion, man." No, it's not my opinion. It's fact, and I wasn't the one who figured them out. What you do with those facts is up to you.

    Not everything needs to be discussed, or negotiated, or "what iffed" forever. The toxicity of these refinishing compounds and appropriate protection is a topic which has been done, quite literally, to death. We are here because we want to trade pretty pictures of nice playfields, and talk about how we got there.

    -

    So, trying to get this back on track, Mark, please let us know how the product hardens up. Would love to put this on the durometer against 2K once fully cured.

    -1
    #15 4 months ago
    Quoted from semicolin:

    Oh my God, I can't believe this is still going on, across multiple threads, after so many people told you to stop or move on.

    Just stop replying if you don't want the interaction. It's pretty simple.

    Quoted from semicolin:

    The reason why repeated "can I do this instead" or "can I get away with this scuba tank/holding my breath/putting a plastic bag over my head" replies are so bad is because people tend to read things that other people have considered doing and then take them as advice that they might also like to follow.
    My actual job includes determining situationally-appropriate training and respiratory PPE, based on what these products are made out of, and you're sitting there going "Well, that's just your opinion, man." No, it's not my opinion. It's fact, and I wasn't the one who figured them out. What you do with those facts is up to you.
    Not everything needs to be discussed, or negotiated, or "what iffed" forever. The toxicity of these refinishing compounds and appropriate protection is a topic which has been done, quite literally, to death. We are here because we want to trade pretty pictures of nice playfields, and talk about how we got there.

    I don't think I ever suggested any of this was simply your opinion. I believe I suggested that you, as a professional in the industry, are making judgement calls as to the correct PPE (based on various pieces of information, training, etc.). If you want to take it as me saying "that's just your opinion" I can't stop you, but that was not my intended implication. I'm sorry if I offended you, the information you have to share is quite valuable.

    I think there is more than one way to skin a cat and discussing those options can be productive especially in the thread which deals with the specific product in question. If there was no interest I would naturally go away since no one would respond to my posts, it sort of works out that way. You have a different view than I do, that doesn't make my line of questioning or interest in alternatives wrong. I too make judgement calls and try to gather as much information as I can. Maybe your training or professional code requires that you can't comment on alternatives or maybe your own judgement prevents it, then just don't comment. It's not my responsibility to police other users who read a single post and use that as their bible. I think it's perfectly healthy to question all aspects of the work we do and if there is a different method to get similar results which is more beneficial in some respect then it's worth discussing. That discovery is a big part of pinball culture.

    This very thread is a discussion of an alternative, a different way to skin the cat. The irony is sort of palpable.

    What's crazy to me is that the post you decided was too much was simply asking how long the cartridges lasted. Obviously I forgot your answer or didn't realize it related to this product, repeating it one time seems easy enough. I just skimmed the other thread and what, I maybe had a total of 4 posts that were suggesting questionable alternatives? Lighten up a bit Francis.

    *And... I think holding my breath or the scuba tank (which is cost prohibitive) are legitimate discussion points. I'm not going to get fined by OSHA if I am not complying. If I have a method that produces a similar result while protecting the body in the same way it's not improper just because you say so. It's not as innocent as the best method for sanding a playfield, but we all take risks and protection measures in various ways. Do you have every guard and use every single proper PPE for every single hand and power tool you own? I believe you might, but that's far from the norm I'd say. No, I don't own chainsaw protective pants and I've used a chainsaw.

    #17 4 months ago

    semicolin. How does that fish hook in your mouth feel?

    #18 4 months ago
    Quoted from CanadianPinball:

    semicolin. How does that fish hook in your mouth feel?

    Y'ever sat in hospital beside someone after they've had a lung resectioned, wondering about the meaning of life?

    #19 4 months ago
    Quoted from semicolin:

    Y'ever sat in hospital beside someone after they've had a lung resectioned, wondering about the meaning of life?

    To be fair, you DO keep taking the bait.

    #20 4 months ago

    semicolin and harryhoudini can you guys take this to PM? This is the second thread you have derailed withnthe same BS

    #21 4 months ago

    Lighten up Francis.
    That's classic.
    I just watched that movie about a week ago.

    2 weeks later
    #22 3 months ago

    After actually using the non-aerosol stuff on a playfield I am really dissapointed, it is pretty much a worst-case scenario. The playfield was carefully cleaned with Naptha, magic-eraser/alcohol and then touched up and Naptha-finished.

    I thinned it about 33% with the recommended thinner and carefully/slowly/lightly brushed it on with a disposable brush. Its going to take a lot of repair...sigh

    IMG_4375 (resized).jpgIMG_4381 (resized).jpg
    #23 3 months ago
    Quoted from mark532011:

    After actually using the non-aerosol stuff on a playfield I am really dissapointed, it is pretty much a worst-case scenario. The playfield was carefully cleaned with Naptha, magic-eraser/alcohol and then touched up and Naptha-finished.
    I thinned it about 33% with the recommended thinner and carefully/slowly/lightly brushed it on with a disposable brush. Its going to take a lot of repair...sigh

    Wow....that's really, really too bad. I've been following this thread and very interested in the possibilities, and I appreciate the lead (and chances) you're taking to find a solution alternative to aerosol. I feel for you with the repair work in front of you! But thank you!

    Assuming your repair efforts go well, are you going to throw in the towel, try again, or try something else?

    #24 3 months ago

    Can you sand that flat and level? Then maybe another thin coat? Not sure how hard it is but it should sand out.

    #25 3 months ago

    (Flame suit on)

    It’s probably the naphtha causing the issue. If you wipe naphtha on a piece of metal, wipe it off, then run that metal under water. The water beads up similar to how it reacts to a greased up pan. I noticed this the other day when I was cleaning up a slide mech on another restoration. The way the clear dried looks like it was trying to move away.

    I’m probably wrong but it’s just a theory

    #26 3 months ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    (Flame suit on)
    It’s probably the naphtha causing the issue. If you wipe naphtha on a piece of metal, wipe it off, then run that metal under water. The water beads up similar to how it reacts to a greased up pan. I noticed this the other day when I was cleaning up a slide mech on another restoration. The way the clear dried looks like it was trying to move away.
    I’m probably wrong but it’s just a theory

    Naptha is the last wipedown I do before clear coating and I have not had issues. I use 2 part auto clear.

    #27 3 months ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    (Flame suit on)
    It’s probably the naphtha causing the issue. If you wipe naphtha on a piece of metal, wipe it off, then run that metal under water. The water beads up similar to how it reacts to a greased up pan. I noticed this the other day when I was cleaning up a slide mech on another restoration. The way the clear dried looks like it was trying to move away.
    I’m probably wrong but it’s just a theory

    Unless this stuff reacts differently to naptha. Would be interesting to do a test piece to see. One with and one without.

    #28 3 months ago

    That’s kind of where I was going with it. It may be reacting to the clear diamond differently.

    This is an extreme example:

    Surface + naphtha + rubbing alcohol = alcohol just pours over it and runs off

    Surface + naphtha + water = water beading up like it’s reacting to oil

    #29 3 months ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    That’s kind of where I was going with it. It may be reacting to the clear diamond differently.
    This is an extreme example:
    Surface + naphtha + rubbing alcohol = alcohol just pours over it and runs off
    Surface + naphtha + water = water beading up like it’s reacting to oil

    Yeah, extreme is a good word in this case. Sure looks like some kinda reaction for sure.

    #30 3 months ago

    I don’t think this is a fisheye problem, I think it may be a application problem. I used a cheapie $0.99 brush, I wonder if it just didn’t flow right off it. I don’t know if the non-aerosol stuff will work, I don’t seem to be able to get a “thin” layer like I can with a spray

    #31 3 months ago

    I'd suggest a hard foam roller. Anything brushed has to be thinned down enough that it can flow flat. That stuff was either thick going on and had no chance to flow or the naptha is interrupting the bonding to the substrate. Aren't there better pre prep wipes than Naphtha? I think they even make wiping solutions but something like paint thinner even? I agree that Naptha is oily.

    What about spraying this stuff in a HVLP gun? Is that causing more health concern when it is airborne?

    #32 3 months ago
    Quoted from harryhoudini:

    I'd suggest a hard foam roller. Anything brushed has to be thinned down enough that it can flow flat. That stuff was either thick going on and had no chance to flow or the naptha is interrupting the bonding to the substrate. Aren't there better pre prep wipes than Naphtha? I think they even make wiping solutions but something like paint thinner even? I agree that Naptha is oily.
    What about spraying this stuff in a HVLP gun? Is that causing more health concern when it is airborne?

    Paint thinner would wipe out any work you did in about a half second.

    #33 3 months ago
    Quoted from harryhoudini:

    I'd suggest a hard foam roller. Anything brushed has to be thinned down enough that it can flow flat. That stuff was either thick going on and had no chance to flow or the naptha is interrupting the bonding to the substrate. Aren't there better pre prep wipes than Naphtha? I think they even make wiping solutions but something like paint thinner even? I agree that Naptha is oily.
    What about spraying this stuff in a HVLP gun? Is that causing more health concern when it is airborne?

    I use Naptha out of the can and a clean rag followed up with tack cloth. Did my first playfield last weekend and there was zero fisheye or other adhesion issues going on.. Sanded it flat a few days ago and just waiting for a dry day to shoot again and finish up.

    Agree with foam roller, I have done several EM cabinets with oil based paint and foam rollers and all come out excellent.

    #34 3 months ago

    Yea, I used naptha on mine as well, per the other thread, without issue.

    #35 3 months ago

    Maybe thinning it more?

    #36 3 months ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    just waiting for a dry day to shoot again

    Did you use 2K or Clear Diamond?

    #37 3 months ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    Did you use 2K or Clear Diamond?

    2k

    #38 3 months ago

    After the disaster of my first attempt, I spent quite some time sanding the bumps down as close as I could. It appears that parts of the playfield did not get any diamind coat on them, making it impossible to get it smooth again. After I started losing paint, I stopped and touched up.

    He is a video of my second attempt, using a roller instead. It seems to have gone well and I think will make a surface I can get close to smooth again.

    #39 3 months ago

    I am posting my results so far with clearingcoating my table using the diamond finish in the can. I've learned some things to avoid - cheap brushes! Weeks later I am still carefully sanding and trying to get the pf back smooth. Its been quite a slow process with a lot of careful sanding and then touchup when the inevitable sand-through occurs (fortunately around the black inserts)

    I thought I was ready for the final coat, the inserts still had some cupping so I roughed them up a bit with 1000 grit sandpaper and carefully dripped directly from the can. Today I find that every single one developed bubbles under the surface. So much for a final coat, now I am looking at another dozen hours trying to sand it out without destroying the paint.

    My only guess is that the diamond finish can't handle being too thick and with the cupped inserts it ended up being so. I certainly have not had this problem on any of the layers... this stuff is going to kill me!

    IMG_4398 (resized).jpg
    #40 3 months ago
    Quoted from mark532011:

    I am posting my results so far with clearingcoating my table using the diamond finish in the can. I've learned some things to avoid - cheap brushes! Weeks later I am still carefully sanding and trying to get the pf back smooth. Its been quite a slow process with a lot of careful sanding and then touchup when the inevitable sand-through occurs (fortunately around the black inserts)
    I thought I was ready for the final coat, the inserts still had some cupping so I roughed them up a bit with 1000 grit sandpaper and carefully dripped directly from the can. Today I find that every single one developed bubbles under the surface. So much for a final coat, now I am looking at another dozen hours trying to sand it out without destroying the paint.
    My only guess is that the diamond finish can't handle being too thick and with the cupped inserts it ended up being so. I certainly have not had this problem on any of the layers... this stuff is going to kill me![quoted image]

    Perhaps it's time to give up on this experiment?

    #41 3 months ago
    Quoted from mark532011:

    After the disaster of my first attempt, I spent quite some time sanding the bumps down as close as I could. It appears that parts of the playfield did not get any diamind coat on them, making it impossible to get it smooth again. After I started losing paint, I stopped and touched up.
    He is a video of my second attempt, using a roller instead. It seems to have gone well and I think will make a surface I can get close to smooth again.

    every time I watch that roller go back and forth its a cringe moment for me.. That roller is very uneven in itself.. not round at all.. I doubt this is the cause of the unevenness completely, but I dont think that roller is helping the situation.

    #42 3 months ago
    Quoted from tscottn:

    every time I watch that roller go back and forth its a cringe moment for me.. That roller is very uneven in itself.. not round at all.. I doubt this is the cause of the unevenness completely, but I dont think that roller is helping the situation.

    I'd advise using foam roller.

    #43 3 months ago

    Thanks for taking the time to try this. While I’m concerned with the health effects I will stay with Spraymax. I wear all the safety garb and my exposure is no more than 30 seconds a coat. As with everything I believe the amount of exposure should be minimized.

    #44 3 months ago

    Can this stuff be thinned down with anything? Also in future, maybe use 9" 5 or 10 mm roller sleeve.

    #45 3 months ago
    Quoted from mark532011:

    the inserts still had some cupping so I roughed them up a bit with 1000 grit sandpaper and carefully dripped directly from the can. Today I find that every single one developed bubbles under the surface.

    Not sure how thick you applied it to the cupped inserts, but the KBS directions on their web site mention "AVOID PUDDLING OR POOLING".

    https://www.kbs-coatings.com/DiamondFinish-Clear-Directions.html

    I'd suggest that you speak to KBS and get their expert opinion on why you're getting the results you are. The issues you're having might be due to simple reasons that could easily be avoided.
    They have online live chat that you could point them to pictures/videos in this thread:

    https://www.kbs-coatings.com/contact-us.html

    #46 3 months ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    Not sure how thick you applied it to the cupped inserts, but the KBS directions on their web site mention "AVOID PUDDLING OR POOLING".
    https://www.kbs-coatings.com/DiamondFinish-Clear-Directions.html
    I'd suggest that you speak to KBS and get their expert opinion on why you're getting the results you are. The issues you're having might be due to simple reasons that could easily be avoided.
    They have online live chat that you could point them to pictures/videos in this thread:
    https://www.kbs-coatings.com/contact-us.html

    Yep, I believe it is my fault. I tried to fill in the cups completely instead of dripping one drop per day for a week.

    #47 3 months ago

    learned something else about it today. After carefully sanding the fill down to the point where the bubbles were exposed and then cleaning out the pits with compressed air, I was ready for a coat over the top. What I have discovered is that out of the can, it is too thick or perhaps there is surface tension or something because it does not flow down into the holes. poor pic but I think you can see what happened.

    I wasn't going to thin it down as I didn't know what that would do to the hardness of the finished playfield, but I think I am going to have to thin it 50% or so and try and drip it into the holes.

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