(Topic ID: 98746)

Clay's Guides - are they ever coming back?


By Atomicboy

5 years ago



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  • 277 posts
  • 102 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by pmWolf
  • Topic is favorited by 14 Pinsiders

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    #201 5 years ago

    1392.gif

    -12
    #202 5 years ago

    This is why there is pinwiki, Randy Fromm, flippers.com, coil medic, etc. for repair information.

    #203 5 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    Hold on thar! Wait a minute. First you were saying it was too much hassle to go through and put in new pictures and update links. Now you're saying if people "rat out" mirror sites and get them taken down you'll put updated guides back up? So if the mirror sites are gone, it's suddenly no problem to put in new pictures, update the guides, and put them back again?

    Un frickin believable...
    People bitch cause the guides are "gone" now you are going to bitch cause the guides were going to come back?
    I would expect this kind of behaviour from some petty childish butthurt types, but from YOU Ken Layton, who up untill now I would have expected more from.
    Guess who wont be contributing to the "Free Internet For Ken Layton Fund" any longer...

    -1
    #204 5 years ago

    I was merely pointing out he flip-flopped on the guides. First saying it was way too much trouble then saying if people take down mirror sites then it's no longer too much trouble. Can you see why there is pinwiki now?

    #205 5 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    I was merely pointing out he flip-flopped on the guides. First saying it was way too much trouble then saying if people take down mirror sites then it's no longer too much trouble. Can you see why there is pinwiki now?

    Pinwiki sucks

    #206 5 years ago

    Sorry Clay, this is human nature at it's weakest.

    So sad.

    You have my empathy.

    rody

    #207 5 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    I was merely pointing out he flip-flopped on the guides. First saying it was way too much trouble then saying if people take down mirror sites then it's no longer too much trouble. Can you see why there is pinwiki now?

    He WAS going to put them back up till you ran your mouth, maybe if someone would have merely said "hey thanks Clay! We really appreciate it" instead of "blah blah blah I m going to bitch and moan about some shit"
    The guides would be back on there way to somewhere usefull instead of being a major HASSLE like they are now.
    So thanks a ton for poining that out Ken...

    #208 5 years ago

    Lamest turn of events ever... I don't blame you, Clay... run... run! I was really looking forward to updated versions of the guides returning, but there's only so much 'happy horsesh#t' one can take.

    I've owned over 100 machines over the years. Your guides helped me learn how to solder - to fixing complicated issues, bringing machines back from the dead. My shooter rods aren't as clean as yours, but I keep watching and try to master the technique.

    Thanks!

    #209 5 years ago

    -18
    #210 5 years ago
    Quoted from Sarge:

    Pinwiki sucks

    Well there's also the good old fashioned way to fix a machine:

    1.Take electronics class.

    2.Go to work for an amusement operator.

    3.Learn on the job.

    That's what I did. I took electronics classes starting in junior high back in 1968. Then I continued taking electronics classes all through high school. Bought my first EM in 1973 and started following the schematic to fix it. Then I went to work for an amusement operator. For most of the 28 years I was with that operator, I was the head technician.

    Back in those days we figured it out on our own.

    #211 5 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    Well there's also the good old fashioned way to fix a machine:
    1.Take electronics class.
    2.Go to work for an amusement operator.
    3.Learn on the job.
    That's what I did. I took electronics classes starting in junior high back in 1968. Then I continued taking electronics classes all through high school. Bought my first EM in 1973 and started following the schematic to fix it. Then I went to work for an amusement operator. For most of the 28 years I was with that operator, I was the head technician.
    Back in those days we figured it out on our own.

    Congratulations Ken.
    For the rest of us less fortunate folks in the here and now, up untill recently, we had Clay's guides...

    #212 5 years ago

    what the F@#*&! is wrong with you guys!!!!!! Clay makes the offer of a lifetime and you piss and moan over anal idiot crap.......k9640514.jpg

    #213 5 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    I was merely pointing out he flip-flopped on the guides. First saying it was way too much trouble then saying if people take down mirror sites then it's no longer too much trouble. Can you see why there is pinwiki now?

    You should leave here.

    Complete jackass you are.

    #214 5 years ago

    To be honest who to say after the mirror sites were down he wouldn’t have changed his mind. I mean really one comment from one person . and he's off the rails,vary undude.

    Post edited by tonycip: trying to be nicer..

    #215 5 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    2.Go to work for an amusement operator.

    It's 2014. Not so many around anymore. Why did you have to pull a pinside & bitch about it when things were turning for the better?

    #216 5 years ago

    Nothing is turning, Clay is awesome in my books, but taking down mirrors and torrents is most likely impossible...

    #217 5 years ago

    The cliché's are endless here...... But you guys could f**k up a train wreck....Run Clay as fast as you can.....

    #218 5 years ago

    Trying to find a bright side, at least the OP has his answer.

    #219 5 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    I was merely pointing out he flip-flopped on the guides. First saying it was way too much trouble then saying if people take down mirror sites then it's no longer too much trouble. Can you see why there is pinwiki now?

    The trouble he was talking about was hecklers like you (and me, and others), not the effort to click the mouse a few times. I am willing to make peace with Clay, can you?

    Quoted from KenLayton:

    Well there's also the good old fashioned way to fix a machine:
    1.Take electronics class.
    2.Go to work for an amusement operator.
    3.Learn on the job.
    That's what I did. I took electronics classes starting in junior high back in 1968. Then I continued taking electronics classes all through high school. Bought my first EM in 1973 and started following the schematic to fix it. Then I went to work for an amusement operator. For most of the 28 years I was with that operator, I was the head technician.
    Back in those days we figured it out on our own.

    Wow, you are completely missing the point. Sure, many pinball enthusiasts (like me) started out in electronics technology courses, but THE VAST MAJORITY of enthusiasts buy games not because they know how to fix them but because they like to play pinball, and then have to learn to fix them out of necessity! You want them to park their broken pinball machine for two years while they go to tech school at night? -OR- would it be better for them to have a free resource that pointedly teaches them how to fix their game? C'mon, man, be rational.

    Clay, you have GOT to get some thicker skin. Unless you didn't plan to re-launch the guides at all and were just looking for an excuse not to, changing your mind on one fellow's posts is...well...just lame.

    Don't yank people's chains. I think I will be fine if the guides remain sequestered, but you are punishing a giant sect of enthusiasts for the sins of a few (and I include myself among that number, but trying to not be any more). Everyone, even your haters, know the guides are a big help to collectors, even if they might cause unnecessary and misguided repairs that end up ruining boards or breaking stuff. That's the way it is. I think the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. I hope you can see it the same way, and the haters be damned.

    Of course, if the haters come down on you again and cause problems with your enterprises, you have no choice. I hope that if the guides remain free, they may acquiesce.

    My earlier apology was sincere, not sarcastic. I don't expect to be pals, but let's agree that the guides are more important than personal conflicts. What do you say? Try putting the guides back up for free while you go through updating the content to be 100% your creation. Then you can do with it what the hell you want. Maybe the haters will leave you to it. I certainly will.

    #220 5 years ago
    Quoted from Sarge:

    He WAS going to put them back up till you ran your mouth, maybe if someone would have merely said "hey thanks Clay! We really appreciate it" instead of "blah blah blah I m going to bitch and moan about some shit"
    The guides would be back on there way to somewhere usefull instead of being a major HASSLE like they are now.
    So thanks a ton for poining that out Ken...

    Lol you are proving Ken's point here, bud. He won't put the guides back up because of something somoene said? Lol get over yourself man.

    Thank god we have mirror sites up with this info. Always a bummer when good info is created by an unstable person. Mirror Sites all can't be found or taken down. You had your chance to make a few bucks off these guides, but got greedy or who knows and too late. With the attitude etc I wouldn't ever pay for these.

    Don't be wishy washy about it. Just straight up say you are keeping the guides and all the information to yourself or say "I'll put them back up shortly with a donation link, it'd be massively helpful if everyone could pitch in a pinch to help with my costs" - the info is great, everything else is annoying.

    -3
    #221 5 years ago
    Quoted from newmantjn:

    You should really get more informed prior to saying things like this.

    Another zero-content, ad-hominem. "The Pinside Effect."

    #222 5 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    This is why there is pinwiki,..

    If the community really wants a long-term information site, they can have it any time they want. Just start setting up pinball repair pages at wikipedia.com. If Pinwiki won't publish a policy, just start creating and editing pages at Wikipedia. They have a clear policy regarding information content and this can insure the online guides will be there forever, and no single person can make them disappear.

    #223 5 years ago
    Quoted from cfh:

    At some point I'll do the work. But right now is not the time.

    Clay has said that if he had time, he'd be willing to put it back up properly. But only if he can do it properly.
    So I just want to throw it out that I'd totally support a kickstarter to get the guide back online.
    I have a funny feeling a bunch of the pin community would too.

    Clay, what would it take, a month fulltime labour? would a $3000 kickstarter goal enable that to happen? $5000?
    I'd chip in $50-$100 right away to help make that happen.

    Post edited by cait001: missed closing bracket

    #224 5 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    .. and here we go again..
    I have an idea.. if enough people are fed up with little dynasties of people battling over information content, let's put a group together and set up a truly public information resource that doesn't have the instability of pinrepair or pinwiki.com.
    I will host a Wiki site - I have my own bank of servers in two different locations. We'll use standard Wiki software, but editing access will be given with permission/invitation so the content level remain high and consistent. We'll set clear IP policies so there will be no doubt who owns/controls what. We will require any and all contributions to give the producers of the site unrestricted use of the content. We will set up open terms of service and identify a council of people who will administer the site and set up a number of mirrors in different locations. We can let Robin host a mirror. We can get PAPA to host a mirror, as well as others, whoever wants. Set this thing up.. clear policies. We can even form a 501c3 and have a board that is in charge of making sure the resources stay online forever. If people want it, we can do it, then we don't have to re-hash this same argument every six months.

    What is this? Sanity in a thread full of crazy?
    I'm in.

    -3
    #225 5 years ago
    Quoted from Arcade:

    What is this? Sanity in a thread full of crazy?
    I'm in.

    I'll be happy to host and help set up such a resource...

    but it also occurred to me... why not just use Wikipedia? Why bother with PinWiki.com, when they won't post a clear policy for content and contributions and their site can disappear any time as well?

    Wikipedia on the other hand, has very clear policies - we could start creating and editing pages in their main database and it would likely stay online forever. It might need a little policing but that's one way to deal with the situation.

    Either way, I'm willing to help.

    #226 5 years ago

    See that is where I was confused...I thought pinwiki WAS wikipedia. YES - that's a great idea, using wikipedia for repair guides. Great!

    <<long term ninja member, well all two years in the hobby.

    #227 5 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    Well there's also the good old fashioned way to fix a machine:
    1.Take electronics class.
    2.Go to work for an amusement operator.
    3.Learn on the job.
    That's what I did. I took electronics classes starting in junior high back in 1968. Then I continued taking electronics classes all through high school. Bought my first EM in 1973 and started following the schematic to fix it. Then I went to work for an amusement operator. For most of the 28 years I was with that operator, I was the head technician.
    Back in those days we figured it out on our own.

    No offense Ken but you do realize that 95% of pinside is not working in the industry. This is our hobby. I respect what you do but I don't have time to take electronic classes, work as an operator ( I already have a job), I already went to school to learn my job.
    The guides are important to us to fix our games.

    #228 5 years ago

    IMO, even if all the mirrors and torrents will be gone ( which will not), Clay will still not put them back up.... ever... so either use the mirrors, or pay him and use his site.

    #229 5 years ago

    Calm down guys. It was a damn near impossible task to begin with.

    FYI: Steve Young carries some very, very good pinball repair books at cheap prices:

    http://www.pbresource.com/

    If you get really stuck, you can always "Ask Lloyd."

    #230 5 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    Bit Torrent will be the hardest to shut down.

    bittorrent will get shut down the moment the site is up. No one will search for it there, everyone will delete their obsolete seeds.

    #231 5 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    I was merely pointing out he flip-flopped on the guides. First saying it was way too much trouble then saying if people take down mirror sites then it's no longer too much trouble. Can you see why there is pinwiki now?

    eeesh, what is this, American politics? come on now....

    #232 5 years ago

    Clay,
    I can't understand why you don't want to jump all over this....

    The rest of you, it might be time to go back to the LED's and Coin mechs

    Oh, and i have four dollars and a wad of used gum, what game should i buy....

    #233 5 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    Back in those days we figured it out on our own.

    This community is not about figuring it all out on our own. This is a community centered around sharing knowledge and helping others find that same knowledge as readily as possible.
    This isn't the 1980s. This is the 21st century, and we want all of the knowledge to get out there, be made accessible, and readily updated with the latest details.

    #234 5 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    but it also occurred to me... why not just use Wikipedia?

    You don't want this on wikipedia, they have a strict set of standards that are not in sync with what we are looking for and how we are trying to present information.

    #235 5 years ago

    If Clay were to put the repair guides back online and update them regularly then any mirror site or BitTorrent site out there would instantly become outdated and worthless.

    #236 5 years ago
    Quoted from ChadH:

    If Clay were to put the repair guides back online and update them regularly then any mirror site or BitTorrent site out there would instantly become outdated and worthless.

    What exactly needs to be updated for games that are over 20 years old? The guides he created don't need to be updated, you just need to find them.

    #237 5 years ago
    Quoted from Sarge:

    Pinwiki sucks

    That's the cool thing about Pinwiki, we can all contribute and improve the site.

    Which part did you write again?

    #238 5 years ago
    Quoted from PoMC:

    What exactly needs to be updated for games that are over 20 years old? The guides he created don't need to be updated, you just need to find them.

    Newer, better technologies and techniques. Workarounds for parts and ICs that are now unobtainable. Suggested improvements and parts upgrades that are now available that weren't before. Additional repairs for other age-related things that were only encountered in the last few years.

    #239 5 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    Another zero-content, ad-hominem. "The Pinside Effect."

    ...as opposed to this quality post.

    #240 5 years ago

    I just read this whole thread and it all makes me sick. Clay has donated, time, effort and a ton of knowledge to the pinball community as a whole and a few douchebags have to ruin it for all of us? I can't think of a single reason to trash the guy. I may not know the whole story and I really don't want to read any more negativity than I have. I seriously doubt Clay is making a damn dime from any money collected from the pin repair guides. For every nay sayer there are a thousand people that like Clay and what he does. The dude loves pinball and wants to support and help it out by giving charity and help to people who can help preserve pinball. I don't blame Clay one bit for feeling the way he does about the whole thing. That said, I am one of the vast majority here that would love to see them come back one way or another. I signed up to the Pinball Ninja website and for me it is a good resource, but its not half of what the guides were for me. I am just not that advanced and reading the step by step helps me. Its a shame that something that could be so positive gets turned to shit because of a few sour grapes.

    #241 5 years ago
    Quoted from newmantjn:

    That's the cool thing about Pinwiki, we can all contribute and improve the site.
    Which part did you write again?

    I agree and I have contributed to pinwiki.

    #242 5 years ago

    This thread inspired me to go make my own copies.
    Just saved the entire Willams system 3-7 guide in Wordpad and put it on my desktop.
    I had to insert each individual photo myself which took about 20 min. But now I never have to worry about any of this crazy crap anymore.
    And the best part is that I just picked up a Firepower which is the machine he used in all the examples.

    #243 5 years ago
    Quoted from BobLangelius:

    Clay,
    I can't understand why you don't want to jump all over this....
    The rest of you, it might be time to go back to the LED's and Coin mechs
    Oh, and i have four dollars and a wad of used gum, what game should i buy....

    A Raven and use what is left over for a nice frosty Shasta.

    #244 5 years ago

    Im pretty new to the hobby (about 6 months in ) and have heard about these clay guides and really wish I had these guides for my williams widebodys or all them for that matter for future purchases. . I really could have used them and sure I will again in the near future. I really appreciate pinwiki as it has helped me many of times but it is limited at the moment and I tried finding the clays guides but had no luck as im not real savy on the interweb lol.i hope one day these guides will be available again like pinwiki is . I also wanna say thanks to all the great people who take there time and make this information available to people like me ..I also wanna say thax to pinside and its great people for your help and info and making this such a great hobby .I wish all the negative people would just give it a break with the price popo and hateing on new pinball company's and given crap to clay about his decisions and much much more.after all this is all for fun and the love of pinball cant we all just get along? Theres enough bad things in this world we dont need it in our hobby to .

    -5
    #245 5 years ago

    Clay should never ever put his guides up for everyone to see. They should stay gone and locked away for ever.
    Why should he share them with all of the bitchy winey ingrates that exist in the pinball community ? , it can't be worth the hassle. you get DB's like the KenLayton that shoot their mouth off and ruin it for everyone with their wise ass comments . What a loser, Thanks Ken !

    Keep them locked away,

    We are not worthy

    Brian Lenker

    #246 5 years ago

    FWIW, I don't think Ken meant to stir the pot here (there are enough members who do that just fine)-I think he was just stating his thoughts. They weren't incendiary. Clay reacted 20 minutes later and threw a fit. It could have been a bad day for him-who knows, who cares. Bottom line is that these probably aren't coming back and that little "deal" that was made was probably re-thought by him, oh, let's say about 4 hours or so later. Ken provided the convenient out for him.
    C'mon guys...THINK for a second....is there anyone here that has the control or drive to "take down all the mirror sites" and to see that future piracy won't happen? I think not.
    A note to Clay- You've always been an asset to this hobby and it would be a shame for you to curtail these guides, but they're yours to do with what you want with them.
    A note to Ken- I'm on other forums that you post on regularly Ken, and I feel you too, are a benefit to those communities.
    A note for both of you: It was a HUGE mistake posting anything here on THIS forum.

    #247 5 years ago

    I don't see a problem, everyone that has contributed to "the guides" and "PinWiki" are still out here helping people with their games (except a few that have passed on) and more collectors are learning now to be able to help in the future. I remember life before the guides on RGP, people were a lot more courteous, less demanding, they knew where to find help/information/parts when they needed it and people that had the knowledge offered it free. It's been the same up till now on Pinside from what I've seen and that's why I'm here.

    Steve
    CARGPB1
    System 80, not just a job, it's an adventure
    Team EM member

    #248 5 years ago
    Quoted from cait001:

    bittorrent will get shut down the moment the site is up. No one will search for it there, everyone will delete their obsolete seeds.

    That is a good point. Bit Torrent and the mirrors go away.... because the real deal is available.

    #249 5 years ago

    That shows how little I know about this AGAIN. I thought the ninja repair logs and videos were the SAME THING as the guides. Are the instructions, guides, and videos up on the ninja site not equivalent or better than the Clay's Guides ? I would think that since Ninja is newer and updated it would be better and more comprehensive. Since it is growing. Wrong?

    #250 5 years ago
    Quoted from cody_chunn:

    Clay, you have GOT to get some thicker skin. Unless you didn't plan to re-launch the guides at all and were just looking for an excuse not to, changing your mind on one fellow's posts is...well...just lame.

    Yep.

    Especially given the otherwise overwhelming excitement and support for the possibility of them coming back.

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