I don't necessarily think it is a matter of secrecy or any plan. I think it is just a case where the boring and no fun issue of content ownership hasn't been addressed because nobody thinks it is a big deal. And it isn't a big deal, until it is a big deal.

So just bite the bullet, post a policy, clear the waters, and be done with it.

Except that for years, they've been confronted with these arguments, here, klov, rgp, and elsewhere and every time the topic comes up, they ignore it. It would take 10 minutes to settle this issue. But why won't they? This is the $64M question.

I don't mean to harp on this but it's now becoming a fascinating mystery...

The answer isn't as dubious as you may think. Some of these materials presented require permission from copyright holders (namely PPS and Gottlieb LLC). If you want to use a snippet from a manual, you need permission from the rights holders. If they are just your own drawings, explanations, and pictures, no big deal, but once you get into any technical documentation from the copyright holders, they will (and have) make you sign off on them holding all rights to the material, and may be pulled at the request of the rights holders at any time. Clearly this doesnt fit the traditional Wiki model, so it is a challenge, no doubt.

I was in the music industry for a bit of time and what you wrote is my understanding of the law as it pertains to songwriting. I assume it would be the same for documents that are written as well.

You have legal established ownership the moment you create any original work. It really can't be said any simpler than that.

This is not the issue PinballHelp and I are discussing. People with copyright claims to content are not affected by Pinwiki's decision on how to handle their content. Pinwiki placing their content under Creative Commons or another license does not remove copyright from anyone elses original work if it was quoted in the wiki. It isn't an issue.

Also, you don't need permission to use a snippet. There is a specific exemption called Fair Use exactly for situations like this:

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

"...quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work"

You can't wholesale reproduce part of a manual or a drawing, but you can quote sections or portions when explaining or describing something.

None of this should hold up Pinwiki making a decision on how to license their content.

You should really get more informed prior to saying things like this.

Kind of looks like the smiley face now has a double chin...

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets

There is a very simple and elegant solution to all of this: Keep contributing your knowledge and experience here and on Pinwiki. Make the internet what it should be again, a place to share information FREELY without any drama.

Yeah, the stuff I was working on previously (not with Pinwiki) was an actual snippet from the manual (screen grab). I had to get permission from Gottlieb to allow it on the site, and they had to review all materials before releasing it. I will say, they were very accommodating in the entire process.

I will give you that point.

However, the "owner(s)" (which in this case is more than one person) would have to make archive.org aware of all instances of the guide and make that request...
We all know that will not happen. Those guides were readily available on at least 4 different sites for many years (and are still on a couple), after they were taken down. Who is going to track down all those instances? The time required to police this type of thing would be a full time job.

It is obvious to me that if you are not smart enough to track down the pinrepair info now, you aren't smart enough to use it's contents anyway. There is really nothing else to say on the matter IMHO, legal or not.

I guess its just me but I don't understand any of this.

If I post something on the internet for educational or entertainment purposes I do it to share info not for money or any other gains ( well maybe the feeling that I may have helped or made someone smile)

Now if someone decides to take the content of what I posted and makes money with it so what?

I never posted to make profit or gain if someone else makes profit from it big deal I would never have seen that gain in the first place as it was never my intention for posting.

Also if that person makes profit by sharing the info then good the info is still getting out there as was my intention.

Would it suck that someone would make a profit on my work yeah but thats how things go, again the work I shared was to be given away anyway for free no strings attached unless otherwise stated. So it wouldn't bother me. I wouldn't cry.

I post something on the net its done gone out of my hands. its out there to be shared and hopefully not used to hurt anyone.

Seems to me that once someone makes a profit or may make a profit on something someone else does then they think damn .Thats my Money or could be. OR I never intended it to be used that way etc.

If its posted by someone with no strings, ties disclaimers thats it done its out of your hands.

I say stop and think before posting as to why you are posting and what may happen with your post.
If your post may be used in ways you may not like or not with the reason you are really posting then don't post.
Call it a posting risk and remember no one is putting a gun to your head to post on the internet.

Again thats just me Im strange that way.

Clay Rules! Clay thanks so much for all you have done and still do for the hobby! Repost the Guides or not your still the man.

I completely agree with everything you said. The voice of reason if you will!

I don't understand the discussion. Clay already stated their not coming back.

In before the lock.

Yes, chasing down infringers can be time consuming. Copyright holders can issue take-down requests at any time, however. There is no limit aside from the copyright term limits, no matter how long the infringing content has been made available. It is up to the copyright holder or anyone they hire to address infringements and take-down requests.

If those sites were hosted outside the US, it's very difficult to enforce copyright as an individual without the backing of an international legal team. So, the most you can do is send a polite request asking the site owner to remove the content.

They never "went away". (Slaps forehead)

I am not exaggerating when I say that I have most of the common ones memorized. After you read something 20-30 times, you can't help but memorize it. I am sure there are others like myself that appreciate them, but they are really no longer needed with community projects like pinwiki and pinside itself.

If it was my work, I would love for them to be archived for the pinball community to use, sell, share, whatever. I fix peoples games and test things for people for free nearly every week of my life. After you realize that money is a necessary evil and BS, your perspective on life changes quite a bit.

If they never went away, then why all the discussion

Signed,
Confused.

? Don't know ? People like to talk about sites and guides helpful to people fixing pinball machines. That is my guess.

As I say above:
It is obvious to me that if you are not smart enough to track down the pinrepair info now, you aren't smart enough to use it's contents anyway. There is really nothing else to say on the matter IMHO, legal or not.

Thanks for your insight.

*cough* Close Thread. *cough*

This is one of the absolute saddest (in the truest sense of the word) threads I've seen on this forum.

Really disheartening.

Not sure if your word choice is correct or accidental.

Insight: 1. penetrating mental vision or discernment; faculty of seeing into inner character or underlying truth.

Incite: 1. to stir, encourage, or urge on; stimulate or prompt to action: "to incite a crowd to riot."

Either way, dead topic. Nothing to see here.

You wonder why the guides are gone? Over half this post has degraded into amateur copyright lawyers telling the forum how copyright law works. Another 20-30% of posts are basically arguing about profiting from donated materials. If these were mine, I wouldn't post them again either. This is just a snippet of the BS that inevitably occurs with certain segments of this hobby.

Seriously, just close this thread. There is nothing productive occurring here.

thanks for the insight.

edited

Clay is the MAN!!! Love the ninja site!

His old guides can still be downloaded through a torrent. You should be able to find that. BUT also join his Pinballninja. It's cheap and so helpful, his repair videos are great!

Wait, see if this thread from KLOV helps? I asked this question in 2012 there and CLAY even post a few replies in there!
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=238677&highlight=clay%27s+guide

Let's say over the years I perfected Vid's Demonic BBQ Sauce. Hot but not too hot, super smokey, does not discolor your fingernails.

For a few years, I let you use my recipe. You are just cooking for for your pinball club, and your church's big BBQ dinner. I'm fine with that, glad that people are enjoying my work.

Then one day I notice at the grocery store that you have bottled and are selling Vid's Demonic BBQ Sauce!

WTF???

You never asked my permission and I'm not OK with that.

Need the recipe please.

As I said in my post on this issue I am strange that way and wouldn't be upset for not being asked permission would it be nice if they had as a curtesy yes it would but people are what they are.

Most however would look at things your way so its how it is. We all see things differently.

Again It comes to motives and what you desire wether in the short or long term with what your gift requirements entail.

If I give you a gift do as you please with it. Want to make money with it? Its yours not mine anymore and if the money brings you more happiness than the gift then fine.

The permission aspect is a form of strings and I understand where your coming from but you can also delight in the fact that you know its your sauce that was good enough to sell and that many others would want it enough to pay for it.

Ugh did that sound like a sermon or something?

Way too serious as Rudy says Its only Pinball!

I love a good BBQ!

It's like getting upset with facebook for putting ads alongside your photo album.

Wood lump charcoal.

I see where you are coming from.

But most people who had a problem with the whole thing were not giving the info to Clay for Clay - they thought they were giving it to the entire world.

Clay has stated himself he's not interested and has peace of mind with doing away with the guides. This thread needs to die and we all need to go back to the pictures of wives/girlfriends thread...

The whole disscussion is moot anyway.

Clay is never putting the guide up again.

You can buy an old DVD of it, you can download it, or you can read it on any of the non-USA websites that host it.

It's still completely out there for anyone who needs it.

Its not a BBQ unless you're ingesting carcinogens.

I'll make you guys a deal. Get all the mirrors taken down (most are old versions and non-English versions of the guides anyway), and stop the piracy of the guides, and I'll put the guides back up on pinrepair.com in their updated format. Note it won't happen all at once (it's a lot of work), but I'll do it as time allows, and one guide at a time.

I hope that happens. Thanks Clay.

LTG : )

Bit Torrent will be the hardest to shut down.

I wish Clay's guides where still publicly available, but what really bothers me is that Gottlieb manuals and ROMS are on lockdown.

FREE THE INFO!

Awesome! (Can you bring back Candy from the TOP videos too?)

That would be awesome! I hate the idea of outdated guides floating around the internet.

Clay, if you need any help with any of this, or hosting or anything then let me know. Happy to help, the guides are partly what got me started in the pinball hobby!

That is awesome of you Clay. Thank You.

Clay I can help. I'll continue to break your machines, and then you can fix them and take pics.

Or her "sister" Dandy.

The sad thing is that this is not 100% unachievable.

As you may have seen from my previous post, I'm a big fan (and Ninja supporter). But this is really an unachievable ask. It's not like there are a fixed number of people that we could contact and resolve... it's always n+1.

Well, maybe if we try really, really hard Clay will give credit for the effort and it'll end with a big win for the community.

Hold on thar! Wait a minute. First you were saying it was too much hassle to go through and put in new pictures and update links. Now you're saying if people "rat out" mirror sites and get them taken down you'll put updated guides back up? So if the mirror sites are gone, it's suddenly no problem to put in new pictures, update the guides, and put them back again?

Really? Ok fine you convinced me. Forget the deal. It was a silly moment of weakness. I'm an idiot. Once, twice, three times burned, you would think i could learn? This is pretty much why i should stay the hell out of these threads and keep my distance from this stuff. "No good dead goes unpunished." - I need to tattoo that to my arm. it's just so much easier to support the people i know and trust than to try and help those that i don't know, and whom keep causing trouble. Man i'm an idiot for thinking people could actually be nice...

Vince warned me, told me to ignore this thread. But like an idiot I walked right into the trap. Duh

Entertaining reading for the end of a Friday work day,...

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