The guides are around.

I don't understand why they're not more public either. Heaven forbid someone wants to fix a pin correctly.

Have you seen PinWiki? http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/

Pinwiki is great, but no where as comprehensive as Clay's guides.

I still think Clay's guides are way more easy to read and follow than the PinWiki.

That being said, there's some posts about this on RGP and I contacted Clay directly. What's holding the guides back is that not all of the pictures are Clay's and some people are being sticklers about releasing their rights to the pictures.

So, in essence, all the pictures in the guides would need to be replaced by either pictures from the pinballninja site or from new pictures who authors give rights in perpetuity.

It's a big project, but I think one that is perhaps one of the most important for pinball. I'm happy to volunteer my time in searching through the pinball ninja site and taking new pictures.

Maybe we can get a group together to help divy up the work. Because, from what it seems, if all the pics were replaced in the guides, Clay would be happy to put them back out publicly.

Who's with me?

There were recent posts on RGP that Clay is not going to avail them again. I was partially blamed. I think pinwiki is our best bet these days. It will take time but it will eventually be as good or better than pinrepair. We don't have a choice, anyway.

Real issue was that Clay wanted to sell copies of the guide (for charity) and pulled them off the public website. But many people contributed over the years and wanted the info freely available, not sold. Many hissy fits ensued. Guides are offline now.

Were Clay's guides for Williams games only?

Clay's guides for 1930 - System 1 are still up at pinrepair.com, it is only the later guides that are still absent.

That being said, the pinball ninja site is indexed by game type and repair. The newer entries with associated videos are valuable assets, exceeding even the written form at times. For the minimal entry donation, it is well worth the money.

rody

How can someone try to copyright a photo of say a Williams circuit board? Good luck with that. He should have ignored whomever thought they had rights to those photos. I would have.

I'm pretty sure copyright is extended to the picture itself, regardless of the subject matter that was photographed. If I take a picture of the Eiffel Tower I still own the copyright to that picture even though I don't own the tower itself...

I find it really hard to believe someone is going to start a lawsuit over a pic or two taken. Especially when the guide was available for free.

If you are resourceful, the guides never left.

I would be willing retake pics for the guides and sign off on giving them away.

Clays' guides are AWESOME! Many thanks to all who contributed to make them possible. It would be really great for the pinball community to have access to them again.

If you haven't already, I would strongly recommend sign up for his PinballNinja website. He updates it fairly frequently, a little less now that he is busy with the museum but still does a great job.

I don't think the guides will come back, however, that is up to Clay. You can find copies of them on the internet as well.

As said, clays guides can still be found. I kept copies and I find them more helpful than anything else available. I've donated to clay as thanks. If the guides ever were for sale I would pay for them and tattoo them on my butt cheeks.

PinWiki is good, but it's just not as instructional as clays guide. No offense of course, they're both good resources!

How do you sign up to access Pinballninja ?

I get a sign in screen, but no option shown for new users.

If you email Clay direct, with your details,
he will ask for a $~20 donation (via paypal)
for a lifetime subscription access
( Log on ID and password) to his ninja site.
More details can be found on his pinrepair.com site i think.

pinballninja……clay has a "sale" on here from time to time. its like $15 for all the info you could ever need. maybe search this site for the 'sale' and it will come up.

That was a sticking point for some. They contributed when the guides were free and expected to remain so. When Clay leveraged the guides into a pay-per-view (for lack of a better term), many contributors said they wanted their pics and/or info removed.

Instead of leaving the guides as a free resource, he chose to take them down instead of editing the documents to eliminate the controversy.

Now he says it's too much trouble to edit them for no "upside" of doing so. I guess just making them free again like they were has no "upside" for him either.

My kids bought me a few of Clay's TOP cds for Christmas. They asked if access was also possible. Clay sent a user name and password with the discs -- a pretty sweet deal methinks. The site is super and the TOP's that I got dealing with EM's are a trip : great entertainment, very educational, and loaded with wacked out humor.

I thought I was a resourceful guy but I have never found a honey hole where they may still be parked.

Clay could put the guides back up in seconds, but he does not want to.

Clay could ask for and have all the pictures he needs to replace the ones he does not own in a day, but he does not want to put the guides back up.

I'm glad I printed them all out several years ago and had them bound at Kinko's. It was worth all the paper and ink cartridges.

They are out there. Anyone who can't find them has put less than 60 seconds effort into it.

I am not saying you can link to them or should be able to. All I am saying is they are there if you choose to find them.

It's perfectly easy to understand - enough people made life miserable for the author/collator that it was decided it wasn't worth the trouble.

Plenty of explanations - some fairly recent - can be read over at good old RGP.

Not to bemoan the point...

Did his make guides for Gottleib sys 3? How about Data East games?

Can he just post them back up though? That is my question. I heard there was some litigation or threats from others with lawyers, and there were actually issues with him posting them up again until edited. I have no idea on the accuracy of that though.
I’m hoping Clay can actually add some insight to this thread, I’m sure he’s read it by now.

If he posted them back up for free, I suspect there would be no problems.

You would be hard pressed to prove you own a digital photograph or text content. I doubt that lawyers were ever seriously considered. It was more of an integrity issue, IMO (I have not received any communication from any other contributor) of people submitting data in good faith that access would remain free for the pinball community at large.

When that changed, the proverbial feces hit the fan. Other incidents have also occurred that soured Clay that I have only read about on RGP and have no details on.

yes.

Guides were for all eras of Bly/Wms, Gottlieb, and DE

Of course he can, but he does not want to.

He has taken his toys and gone home.

Who cares either way? The guides are out there. Clay has a website for those that want more. No use rehashing all of this again.

dead-horse.jpgdead-horse.jpg

Atari
Bally 6803 (1985-1989)
Bally Stern (1977-1985)
Capcom
Data East
Sega
EMs (1930-1978)
Gameplan
Gottlieb Sys 1
Gottlieb Sys 3
Gottlieb Sys 80
Pin2k
Williams Sys 3-7
System 11
WPC to WPC-95

I think that's all there were.

Hasn't worked the last 2000 threads

* post removed *

_{Post edited by moderator: You know this is not acceptable, please don't do it.}

I bet clay drained this thread without even opening it.

Yup same here. Clay we are here for you, just tell us what you need.

John P. Dayhuff
Battle Creek, Mi.
269-979-3836

Perhaps. But of you post your picture on the web you pretty much lose your claim. I'd probably just use them anyway and let someone that wants me to remove them fight it out.

As a copyright holder, you can "revoke" your permission for someone to use your pictures at any time.

Clay could do like the Game Plan guy did:

http://www.gameplanpinball.com/

Publish his own book.

As a photographer, I can assure you that is not true. As soon as I trip the shutter, the copyright is mine. Forever.

Having said that, I'd contribute photos to any repair guide - which I had done with Clay's guide, and have with pinwiki.

I found this in a dumpster behind a whorehouse in Alameda.

CRG 006.jpg

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Edit: I will not copy this disk please don't ask.

first PLEASE don't post that you have the guides and you are willing to give them out. That is a copyright violation. Robin will revoke your pinside userid if you do this. thank you in advance.

as for the guides returning, at this point it's unlikely. All the words in the guides are mine (unless otherwise noted, which i believe was only in the pin2000 guide and some sections from williams in the wpc guide.) The problem is the pictures. Most are not mine. And most suck anyway. With new digital cameras the pictures could be way better. heck an iphone takes better pictures now.

that said, the guides would have to be gone through, all the pictures replace with 100% my pictures (not yours, regardless of whether you give permission or not - i'm not going down THAT road again, ever.) All the pictures in pinballninja.com are mine, they could be transplanted to the guides. Also all the hyperlinks would need to be updated. For the most part the information in the guides is good, as i have been updating the guides over the last 3 years. But i think a lot of guides could be word trimmed to make them more concise and less wordy.

also i would add a lot of the video content from the pinballninja.com site. Since there's 325+ videos on repair there, it would really add depth to the whole thing.

Unfortunately the only person that can do this work is me. again, when others help, been there, done that. and i'm just not interested in going down that hell road again.

The problem came to a head when i tried to help the non-profit Pacific Pinball Museum. and a few really made my life miserable with the guides (at that point especially, and through the years.) It just came to the point where it wasn't worth doing any more. There was a lot of other negative stuff going on too, pointed at me. Which really made me take a step back and re-evaluate the whole situation.

you can only be poked in the eye so many times before you go blind. if people think that their negative attitudes and actions have no consequences, they are wrong. dragging people through the mud in public forums isn't good for anyone. If you're looking to blame people, first you should blame me. Then all the others that "piled on". Heck one key person has already posted in this thread.

The whole guide thing was for sure a learning experience. Not just for pinball, but for life. and frankly i have a lot of other things i'm doing in pinball that are far more rewarding. I prefer to do the pinballninja.com thing, as it has a gate keeper. The haters stay out, and the supporters stay positive. It's a much better system, far more rewarding for me and all those that subscribe (to my knowledge.)

Here's to hoping the updated guides make it to the ninja site. When I am trying to troubleshoot or just learn "what I don't know" about a system the guides are extremely helpful. The ninja site is fun to follow, but its difficult to find that repair example which matches your problem.

Thanks either way.

The guides would still be valuable without the pics

Would it be possible to set up a contract that the photographers sign, that they get paid by you for a dollar, and then you own the rights?
Then set up a donation box to a site which would help pay for those same said pictures? I would glady pay $20 to help support. Those repair guides saved my bacon countless times.
Just trying to find a way that might help.