LTG, please tell me you got a free WOZ out of the deal.

No.

LTG : )

A deeply discounted WOZ at least?!?

Drop it please. Nothing to do with JJP.

Wonder why one would staff a Company with "For Free" workers? Cash flow? Stern pays it's Staff right?

Well this is exactly where I didn't want things to go.

Jack called me. Jack hired me. Jack wanted to talk salary. It was me, not Jack, ME. I told him point blank I didn't want a salary. Jack asked why, and I told him. Because when someone signs that dotted line on a check you have a fucking boss, I didn't want a fucking boss. I had one once for a year in 1972 to 1973 and I'm never fucking doing that again.

It is nothing to do with cash flow, nothing to do with Jack. It is all me.

And back when this first hit Pinside I politely explained I'd be helping people with their JJP machines anyway, this way I'd be able to help them better. And until now I've been pretty happy about that arrangement.

Jack hired me, I'm still there after a little over 6 months, so they must be happy with the job I'm doing. Or they'd replace me.

You got that 2RustyBalls ? You happy now ?

Lloyd

Thank you Lloyd, I know if Jack personally asked me to hop in my car and drive an hour to help out a distressed WoZ I would have to think about it.

For LTG, I would do it happily (we'll see if I ever have to put my money where my mouth is on that one ). You're a brand, and a top tier one at that.

Lloyd my happiness has nothing to do with your comments or free phone support you offer. Why would you think I was referring to you? How Vain can you get? Since you posted, It sounds more like you have an issue with the ability to accept responsibility and work with others and not so much a "boss" issue at all. That's a cop out. The post is very telling. Quit making excuses why you can't work with others regardless of one being a "Boss" or not. You're talking out both sides of your mouth, you don't want a Boss but you claim JJP Hired you. Go look up what Hired actually means. You're either confused or don't understand what Hired means. For the record you might want to reconsider a position that would be more of a consultant. That might get you over your current hang up of having a Boss and still give you the ability to obtain real compensation so you can buy things you could use. The real question is are you happy now?

Hey RustyTroll...
1. Lloyd has done more for this community in the last month than you will probably do in your lifetime!
2. You are not as clever as you think you are.

Will the munchkin assassination mode be included??

LTG just be an independent consultant

AKA your own fudging boss

With perks like money n stuff

Attacking with the Troll card is standard M.O. with many in the WOZ group when they can't defend the actual facts. I didn't use the F bomb. It's Pinball and not Cancer Research. Sorry I'm not as easily impressed as many clearly might be.

So, facts... you're saying Jack is cheaping out and a paid staff member would do a better job than Lloyd? Or... are you saying that something like cancer research is fine when done with unpaid volunteer staff, but for pinball you have to be well-paid or... what?

Lloyd, why are you wasting your time on this dreck when your decades of arcade equipment experience could be better spent curing cancer and impressing people?! Seriously, man - it's just fixing different stuff!

As am I. Unpaid volunteer for the exact same reasons. Want to make pinball more fun and help JJP succeed.

*edit*. Don't bother replying to rustyballs. Check his thread history. His only
Commentary is how much he hates woz. Just an unhappy person with nothing to offer this community.

Rusty Balls coming out of this looking like a total asshole I'm afraid

Wow Rusty, stop being rude, especially to Lloyd who does so much for this hobby. Also, if you don't like WOZ that's fine but please stop attacking JJP for no apparent reason.

He's called Rusty Balls for a reason. They haven't gotten much love in years, I'm afraid...

That can take its toll on a man.

Whaaaat? We agree on something.

What is this world coming to!!!!!!!

I think the key to WOZ ( as well as any future JJP sales ) is going to rest with the software. JJP has to encourage Keith and his team to pull out all the stops and continue to update the software/system for their flagship game in addition to any future games. If they do what Stern has been doing, which is orphan older game software in lieu of newer ones, they'll be sabotaging themselves.

So IMO, how many games they ultimately sell will pivot on this key point. If they start selling/shipping Hobbit, and they continue to update WOZ above and beyond it being "complete", they will set a new/higher standard and make their games valuable in the long term. This is what I'm hoping for, but my worry is, they may opt for the low-hanging-fruit of cranking out more titles to get pre-order money like Stern. If that happens, I think both manufacturers will basically milk the market dry and kill it.

Time will tell... in any case, I think both the actions of JJP and Stern can be taught in Business classes for many years to come. It will be interesting to find out if those stories beomce cautionary tales or innovative ways to revitalize a dying market.

You took the words out of my mouth, haha. Well said!

JJP has the chance right now with their first pin to show customers "We complete our games with deep rulesets". I personally think that completed code sells games and by completing WOZ and continuing to update it JJP will only sell more machines. It seems like they are going down that path right now. After seeing the work they have done on WOZ I'm only more excited to get The Hobbit.

It also helps that JJP encourages open discussion between staff and owners / players and comments on feedback regarding code.

This is one reason why I'm not bothered they're talking about doing another LE run of WOZ. It would be consistent with them not having any intention of abandoning their first game for the next. They can continue to add more to WOZ over the years.. add more modes, add meta-games and more features, and continue to build a dynasty. Or they could do what Stern is doing and let licenses sell games. That would be unfortunate, but I'm hopeful since they're still actively trying to increase the value of WOZ with another LE run, that the software will follow suit. I just don't want to see different functional versions of the same game.. that would blow.

Why would they replace you, if you are working for free?

Blinky things!!! This is really the point of Classic Game Room's review.

WOZ is not straight forward. Give it straightforward modes/lighting cues like oh, I don't know, any other Pinball, and it's immediately improved.

As far as banging the guy on the review of incomplete code, how long does a game need to be out before you review it? If you are worried about poor reviews, don't ship an incomplete product.

The way pinballs are sold encourages incomplete code. Little competition amongst manufacturers, prepaid sales from customers and distributors and a USB port allowing the to say 'screw it, we'll issue issue an update later' (or maybe we won't).

Then there's people offering free help for tech support (good of them for sure) while makers charge an arm and a leg for games. Just sounds so odd to hear.

Rusty Nuts = D bag.....

To be fair AC/DC is just as bad at not being completely intuitive with the lighting cues. A lot of more recent pins are this way.

I didn't find this the case when I played it. I haven't played all the songs, but the ones i did play I thought made it pretty clear to me which shots I should (try to) hit...

You know, I think the real point to take from the review is this, whether you own a WOZ or not:

While his review is very tongue-in-cheek, he is telling you how he feels as a casual or average gamer/pinball player. He represents the general population - your future of the survivability of this hobby/obsession. He is the kind of guy that walks up, looks around at the playfield, and decides sometimes on looks alone, if he's going to drop 50 cents and "give it a go." He IS the future of this hobby being relevant.

You could also make the argument that "Well, we're all paying $5000 - $8000 to have it in our living room so WE are the future of the hobby - not him - his review is balls!" Then, I would kindly point out how the release of pinball machine emulators on PCs and various handheld hardware caused what seems like a huge "BOOM" the last 3 years and got a lot of people involved in this hobby. It's way easier to venture into this hobby when you have many tables to choose from on a screen versus just one stand-alone machine in a bar or someone's private home.

What I am getting at - his review could potentially be how the vast majority of "average players" feel when they walk up to it - like it or not. Maybe THAT should be the focus here and the constructive criticism that should be going to JJP and his crew - not "Man, his voice was annoying!" and "Blinky things....? He was sure picked on in high school."

See the big picture here, guys. Live in a world where all you hear are the "Warm and fuzzies" and you or your business will find yourself in a cold, place called "Failed for Resistance to Change"

His review could also be looked at as a self proclaimed "Star Trek" fan (see review) and admitted hater of the Woz theme.........so yeah, maybe he is the typical pin dork.......

That said, it appears that JJP was going for a much larger audience, some of which will obviously not like the theme, can't make everybody happy, the fact is that "new players", non pinheads, really love playing Woz over Ac/dc (I love both!).....

So, "big picture", there will be people that don't like it, the minority, and many that will love it, like most pins, I'd have to applaud JJP for trying to broaden pinball appeal in the "big picture"....

And at the end of the day, this is one guy's opinion, like everybody else's opinion including my own, take it for what it's worth, not much........

Absolutely Ice - totally agree.

And truth be told, I have never seen WOZ up close, nor have I invested my time into it, nor have I got the Stern vs JJP thing going in my head, nor am I shelling out $5000+ for ANY new pinball machine anytime soon (actual mileage may vary on that last statement). So I have nothing to gain or lose here. I genuinely want to see WOZ; it looks very intriguing with a lot of BST (blood, sweat, tears) put into it, and I greatly admire the effort put into it.

Stern needs to get its crap together because it's not the only player in town, and they'd be good to shape up, put up, ; or it could be time to shut up shop down the road.

Stern is not the only player in town but is one of the longest surviving so they have some of their "crap" together.
Surviving in the market place for years is harder than any start-up with one or none games released.

I hope they all find a place in the market but consumer pricing is going the wrong way IMHO.

Everybody knows the code is incomplete. You might as well review a Kenny G. CD and complain that "there's too much saxophone on it."

As far as whether JJP deserves to be panned for this is debatable. As it stands, he probably hasn't shipped out even 1/4 of the outstanding orders he has for the game. It might be more appropriate to say that right now about 350 or so customers "have their games early". It would be another matter if JJP said the game was finished, but everybody knows it isn't, so I'm not sure what is served by Capt Obvious' insightful observations.

I posted my own "review" - actually I called it what it is, which is what this guy should have done, a "WOZ play report" eight months ago: http://pinballhelp.com/tpf2013woz/

Obviously the code wasn't complete then either, so instead of stating the obvious, I focused on things I could talk about that were relevant and informative, like the design of the playfield layout, etc...

In a similar fashion, I recently posted my "review" of Metallica: http://pinballhelp.com/first-impressions-metallica-le-pinball/
A good review should be informative. If you don't know the ruleset, then you can't accurately review the ruleset. If you're doing a "review" you should know the machine. If not. If you just want to give your "first impression" then call it that. Don't call it a review.

JJP also had the chance to build games and sell them. But instead, they discovered they could sell games then build them.

This business model needs to change. If new cash continues to pay for old orders, it will not end well.

The new red Woz announcement sure seems like another cash injection prior to building a game.

lol fantastic line!

Or "There's too much Wizard of Oz on it".

If it were only jazz flute...

CGR reviews are always a breath of fresh air , I enjoyed it .

Stern are smart players they cover the LE/upgrade models and the lower cost model/Pro . I feel if JJP want to survive long term they need a base model at a much lower price point and a LE for the people with deeper pockets . They will go under unless they can grab both markets .

I'd hate to think the entire pinball market falls into either: you can afford a $5k machine or you can afford an $8k machine.

The Nib market , yes
Or at least what we are willing to spend.

What does liking or disliking those themes have to do with pinball or being a pinhead/dork? Typical guy yes... typical pinhead, no.

the fact is that "new players", non pinheads, really love playing Woz over Ac/dc (I love both!).....

You call it a fact... you have a source? I know we hear a lot about all the tech support given to JJP customers who are pin-illiterate but keep in mind we hear nothing from Stern tech support at all, who may or may not be fielding the exact same type of customer base. And we know publically nothing about sales numbers or the true customer base for either company.

I know in my area there are a couple people dealing with Stern tech support on and off who own a bunch of new-ish Sterns who aren't all 'pindorks' on the tech end... (oh maybe they are - they like ST over WoZ!!!?? *gasp*) By my observation there, Stern also appeals to a broader demographic while you seem to claim the opposite.

Yeah drillmonkey, the "new people" that come to my house and play them, how's that for a "fact" and an "observation"..........

And you have zero clue or evidence that "Stern also appeals to a broader demographic", you have a source?

Basic math ?

Most of the games on location and sold across all markets is Stern with a market share of 95% or higher
If that is not a broader demographic how does less than 5%> market share appeal to a greater number ?

Man, you need to talk to your brothers over there at the Stern marketing department

I'm talking about the people that come to my house and play my pins, that's what I'm addressing, is it really that hard to comprehend? Considering that Stern has produced 100% of all pinball machines over the last 18 yrs or so, how do they not have at least a 98% share? Wow.....

As for appeal to a "broader demographic", its based on my own experience with kids, boys and girls, teens, men and women, old and young, as people that have visited my home and played my pins and the fact is that more people, on a broader demographic range, like Woz! 20's like Ac/dc mostly and WPT and NBA.....

So, not sure how much Stern is paying you to pump every thread but they really need to work on their marketing

As I've said many times over, I love all my pins! And its called an "unbiased opinion"......

He said MATH Ice Williams was making pinball machines in 1999 ! How is that for 100% ???

Well I don't work for the Stern marketing department (do they really have one?) so I guess I wouldn't know

So let's see, does that make 14 years of exclusivity, might need to break out the calculator for that one

"It is the end of an era. From a peak of 100,000 in 1992, the industry's high point, global sales of pinball machines fell to just over 10,000 last year. WMS's pinball division lost $17.8m over the past three financial years; when it stopped production it was losing $1m a month."

Looks like they made the right move in focusing on slot machines, my how things changed over an 8 year period....

Pay? Surly you are capable of a better dig than that weak attempt.
As to marketing I believe they (Stern) has no problem selling everything they manufacture, on a timely basis.

Now back to the cheerleading.

Yes, I see you are right back at it, such bias, and such hyperbole, but hey, since Lloyd and Alex work for free why I guess I can see Stern's full blown unpaid cheerleaders as well!

Oh yeah, Stern has sold everything they have ever manufactured, all of it, never struggled or anything

I clearly stated my source so as not to misconstrue my opinion as fact - it was based on personal observation. Which is not at all a "fact". It's simply my anecdotal counter to your supposed fact, which truly has turned out to be just an observation as well after all

See from a statistics point of view:
Your acquantances = not a statistical sample
My acquantances = not a statistical sample

The difference between your statement and mine is you said:

and I said

So you said FACT and claimed your evidence to be indisputable... and I said OBSERVATION and merely cast doubt, not claim certainty. You cleverly tried a bit of backtracking here suggesting that i too was claiming 'facts', but I simply said the people I know (pinheads and non-pinheads) have regularly preferred ACDC over WoZ.

Whether that holds true industry wide, I don't know and neither do you but we can make some inference becauuuuuse:

Fortunately I didn't even need to come up with a sensical response because this sums it up well!

^^^^^^^^^Genius........

It is a "fact" that the majority of the large sample size of people that have played both Woz and Ac/dc premium, side by side, at my home, prefer Woz, based on their opinions.......and seeing as though they both sit in my game room, right next to each other, I'm clearly "unbiased" and I and my friends have a ton of fun playing all my pins.......so

That is what can be referred to as a "fact" based on the input and conclusions noted above, now, who gives a shit drill monkey, go back to shilling for Stern......

So is the bible. I wouldn't want to play a Bible themed game either.

(ok, maybe old testament)

While I doubt cal50 actually has access to sales and inventory numbers, the fact that new machines continue to come out of Stern, and darn things keep showing up in homes, it's probably safe to say they are selling almost everything they are making. They wouldn't be rushing machines out the doors with unfinished code if they were backed up with unsold machines gathering dust if this were the case. There's the odd LE still available (TF and AV?) but other than that, I don't see anyone struggling to offload NiB machines....

If you were actually interested in making an effective counterpoint what you SHOULD have pointed out is that JJP is on the right path because they too are also selling everything they are making, with the only struggle being the speed at which they can do it. Shame you didn't point that out because it would have been a great observation.