That looks like absolute dog poop! I can't believe they would send that out the door. wow.

That certainly doesn’t look great, could be a combination of uneven application and inadequate sanding.

I’ve always known their quality to be pretty good, as well as their customer service. How long ago did you reach out to them and how many times?

They switched clear coat contractors. Maybe this was from the former one I had problems with before. They can chime in, since I do not know the playfield shown.

That PF looks like hell. I have purchased from CPR many times but unfortunately the few times I had an issue it took a post on Pinside to get a response from them. I bought 3 plastics sets that were all missing one piece.

OK guys, let's just call it official and finally move onto the electron microscope as a standard here...

This has to be the most close-up photo analysis I have ever seen on our playfield inserts, to date. To the point that if CPR is going to be called out, I have to now demand galleries posted of 1-inch inserts as dinner-plate sized pix, of ALL current playfields being sold today. Stern. Jersey Jack. Chicago Gaming. Mirco. All of them.

If you can tell I am a little frustrated, you are correct. Just as much as this first-time customer's feelings after obviously a mismatch to his expectations before buying. So I[m going to bring some facts and perspective to the thread. Let's really talk details here...

I know this playfield, because I graded it. We sell only about 1 TOTAN a week, as things have slowed down on that title after all these years. It is GORGEOUS and very much a virtually flawless playfield. What we're being presented here in these pictures is the typical angled-hard-glare-lights technique to accentuate the near-invisible, literally ink-layer-thick relief in the clearcoat surface. I could do the same thing to every playfield we have ever made in the last 14 years, and every playfield ever made, period. But why would I ? It's something that ALL playfields have, and will always have. I'll refer everyone to vid1900's various comments and threads on this topic all over Pinside. These pix cannot be introduced in this thread as something new, odd, shocking, "dog shit", or poor quality. The playfield is fantastic overall, and I stand by it. Yes, a gold grade is a judgment on overall perfection of the artwork, and how flawless it is. I went over every square inch of this print, and it is indeed flawless. Even the halftones had zero blotchiness or hard-shifts anywhere. Perfect ink gain.

OK, a little physical production lesson:

The insert surface is always 3 mils (per layer of ink) lower than the surrounding artwork. With the layers around an insert being WHITE-WHITE-COLOR-BLACK (4 layers) that means you are at a differential of about 12 mils height difference. When the whole playfield is clearcoated over, the clearcoat (in the beginning) will level-off everything to appear flat. Once the clearcoat is about 1-3 months old, it shrinks to near it's final tightness and levels differently over plastic, ink, and wood. Depends on the heights. But we're talking heights in mere mils at this point - at edges and almost always around inserts as in the above photos. The fact is, tiny height differences underneath the clear DO eventually make their way through to the top. Eventually. So the clearcoat is like a laminate, eventually flexing over the reliefs of the whole surface. No playfield is immune to this, with fresh wood, fresh layered artwork, and several layers of 2PAC clear over top of it.

After 6-8 months, the clear will finally be as hard as it's ever going to be, and as shrunken as it will ever be. For all intents and purposes, it has stopped moving and is "dead". A this point, people have complained over the years of the same similar things: (under harsh angled glare of course) inserts looking like they are in a ring of "sinking" clear, vertical woodgrain patterns/ripples, etc. All of this is absolutely, wholeheartedly normal.

The only way to have glass-flat-forever-perfection is time, and post-work. After 6-8 months, once the clear is completely benign and dead, you can either a) wetsand the entire surface to flat perfection, then machine-polish it back up to perfect gloss using compounds b) sand the entire surface to flat perfection, then shoot another topcoat of clear or two c) both of the above.

We used to have a page on our old web site discussing all of this, with pictures, diagrams, and showing all the supplies, and in what order to use them (we recommended the 3M "Perfect-It" system. Looks like we need to get a similar page added back ASAP, into the new web site. I'll attach a few of the old cross-sectional diagrams below, showing how inserts seat, get printed over, and clearcoated over.

The only friend in perfection like this (if that is what one really wants) is time. Waiting out the production clearcoat, and doing the additional work. Keep in mind, the only way playfields could be sold to the contrary is if we "aged" them on racks, like wine in a wine cellar, for 8 months after the run is complete. Not selling them. Not shipping them. They just sit. THEN we take them all and sand/clearcoat them one last time. That would mean playfields we are shipping now were finished back in February, and CPR would be on this 8-month delay system. Never heard of anybody doing this, nobody does, and we can't start treating playfields like wine vineyards. I think everybody can understand that. When runs are done, they are released and shipped.

To the new customer, who is a first-timer, I would say your email just hasn't been reached yet. Only on tuesday did the newly programmed Contact page on our new site finally get synced to a POP client, which popped out 2 weeks (about 400+ emails) when it opened. We're still getting caught up, I will openly admit. Should be done soon. Remember, direct 1-on-1 communication is admittedly our weakest point. It's one of the things we're working on, and an internal action item from about 6 months ago. Still a lot of work to do. Consolidating everything to one Contact page on the site was just a very recent move that is going to help a lot. One-stop single-box communication. We just need to get through the initial flood, and back to a daily stasis.

If there is something specific I'm not seeing, that is a blemish on this TOTAN... please write into the Contact again. Ask that the details be forwarded to Kevin (they usually are anyway, if there is a quality dispute) and I can get into a PM exchange with pix and such. Since few things get escalated to me, I can easily take it from there.

As for Pinside in general, I make a general call for anybody to post some dinnerplate sized insert pix of Stern, CG, Mirco, and JJ playfields, with hard-glare angled light, so we can all see the clearcoat relief around all the other playfields out there. Would be cool to see the same of aftermarket-pro-cleared specimens as well (ie. do they actually remain glass-perfect-flat forever?) I don't want to be salty, I just want things to be fair. The title of this thread is very damning, and specific. Thousands of people will see it. So I have to ask. We've been at this 14 years. Our current production clearcoats are the best we have ever had, sprayed by a 20-year veteran who did high end cars for over 15 years, in a perfect wetwalled downdraft booth facility. It doesn't get any better than this for "off the gun" clearcoats. Any buffing, rubbing, flattening work (at the end user's discretion) is up to them. On a production level, we can't get into months of clearcoat work on playfield runs, nor the 'aging-wine' process I outlined above. It's just not practical, nor feasible.

If something is particularly odd with this customer's TOTAN, we can certainly exchange it for another. But I've gotta look into this deeper and see what is allegedly an issue, then we can plan where to go from there. If it's these tiny reliefs in the clearcoat around inserts, it's a non-starter.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

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People

Sorry you are not happy with your PF but this is fairly normal from what I have seen. It may be a little worst but picks never tell the real story.

If you want a perfect playfield send it to Kruzman or another professional. Otherwise judge it from the players perspective and put away the magnifying glass. If you are going through all that work to swap a PF, buy from cpr or other send to Ron and install perfection.

It is my opinion that the factory clear is applied to protect the art during shipping.

.

Upload a shot of the entire PF or in thirds so we can get an overall perspective of the PF

It’s understandable that someone paying nearly $1000 for a piece of screened plywood will have high hopes. I can’t think of what to do other than having a disclaimer explaining the typical condition of these playfields during checkout so that the buyer knows what he should expect.

I read the OP post and was going to post my usual "totally normal" response; but I've done it so many times that I could not even garner up the will to do it again

Even if you wait a year, and then do a new topcoat on a playfield, the expansion and contraction of the wood (wood has a different expansion coefficient than the plastic inserts) can cause tiny rings to telegraph through the clear around the inserts as the seasons change.

If stuff like this bothers you, move to city that has the same temp/humidity all year round. You'll sleep like a baby.

Come on down!

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After 40 years and millions of balls, you KNOW this playfield is as **cured** as it's ever going to get, and the wood fibers have become as beaten down as they are ever going to get.

Yet, in a week of high humidity (remember wood is hydroscopic) we can just barely see that the insert edge is telegraphing through the clearcoat.

It's not a defect in any way, and no matter what, it's 10000x better than anything that ever came off the line at Williams.

Click to zoom:

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You need to be *heard* first, or there can't be a response. We don't sit here, look at an email like that, and hide. Especially when it was a fairly perfect candidate for giving you the URL for the Clearcoat Perfecting page on our old site, which went over the topic of reliefs in clearcoat. The old site was still online 4 weeks ago. You got a response in hours, simply because this is the first I am (or somebody here) is reading your complaint.

I assumed (above) you must be in the Contact emails off the new web site Contact page, from the last 2 - 2.5 weeks. Which only got popped for the first time this past tuesday. We're still going through those. That computer is down at the shop. I guess I know you're not in there now, from your timeline.

If it was *4* weeks ago, I can confirm I don't have anything. I've gone and looked. That old Inbox account came to MY computer here at home.

Looking at 4 weeks ago, I can tell you that our web host (which we let go) on the old web site, and all the old email addresses on that host's server (it was all the same company), were being tinkered with as our third party web programmer and the host's "tech team" were prepping the overwrite & launch of the new site and email addresses. The host company techs were all over everything. They even had our site mistakenly offline for a few hours one day. We were pissed. Plus our whole hosting service didn't exist at one point, as they were confused by a billing thing (as we had "two" accounts, due to trying to open a faster, higher priced service). So accounts deleted the old account one day... that one took nearly 24 hours to fix. They were trying to backup all our emails and move them over to the new system we paid for. They attempted all these moves and who knows how bad they screwed things up at times. It was seriously amateur hour, and our programmer guy was thoroughly pissed day after day.

I suspect if you emailed during this time, the only thing I can think of, your email(s) went who knows where. We ended up letting that company go, and everything was started anew on a new host company.

If it wasn't this, then in the past I've seen it be as simple as too many MB of attachments. Our old host had us on a system from when we went online in 2004 (it literally was the same hardware with all the old accounts from that era, still in service with them). Our email attachment limit was ancient - like 3 or 5 MB.

Not making excuses. Rather, demonstrating how and why the inserts look that way in the clear. This is extremely important, because you took this public in the way you did, making a very specific claim.

I realise you felt you had no choice. But our phone number is right on the UPS label too. Plus PM's here on Pinside are wide open. I'm sorry you didn't get a response 4 weeks ago, but that's because I never got/saw anything to respond to until tonight.

I'm still going to need you to use the Contact form at the site... or implicitly email [email protected] or [email protected]
(which is where those form emails go)

We can go from there. Heck, maybe this thread already answered the quality questions you had. If so, then maybe you have the answers you needed.

I'm here regardless. It's up to you. Thx

It's time to fire this customer. When they have both unreasonable expectations and refuse to accept reasonable explanations they are not worth keeping.

Are you sure the OP is complaining about the edge on the inserts and not the fact that the inserts are so far off the paint that they're not even in the black edges? Look at that Ali-Baba one or the flying carpet where you can see the wood. Looks like a shitty classic Stern playfield from the 80s.

Everyone posting was supportive until Kevin assumed what the issue was (maybe they're right, but OP hasn't actually said, and possibly doesn't even know the terms) and then everyone just assumes Kevin guessed right and starts shitting on them? Really?

expecting a response from support for a thousand dollar product is unreasonable?

Sure, CPR apparently had email issues. Which they as a professional company should not be having, and the OP should have no reason to expect. If their server is down for whatever reason, or the attachments are too large, that should bounce back to the customer with an error. If they actually managed to lose the email that was successfully delivered... what do you even say to that?

Kruzman is the only guy who does this - and the work is outstandingly awesome. But you will pay for it. Double the cost of the playfield. Would you pay an extra $500-$1000 and wait 6 additional months to get it that perfect?

For all the reasons Kevin stated, time, inventory cost, nobody wants to wait that long, it does not make Business sense to fix something that you really can't see anyway.

Some of those inserts definitely don’t look too great. But reading OP’s original post he mentioned the clearcoat, he didn’t mention anything about the insert alignment.

I think that is quite reasonable.

All companies at some point, even “professional” ones, could have an intermittent email or server issue. That is what IT departments and help desks are for. I’m not saying it’s an excuse, but it does happen. To say that no professional company should have an email issue is just an asinine statement.

Twice 4 weeks ago? No other effort since?

Absent any unforeseen issue on the company’s end, you did deserve a response. However, maybe it’s just me, but if I didn’t get a response within a week after being that upset with something or a product I spent $1k for, I would probably pick up a phone and call, or look for some other way to get in touch with them.

Either way, it looks like CPR offered to assist and address your concerns, so I hope you can get it worked out.

I agree.....

I can understand the edge of the inserts never being perfect, all play fields are like that. Even if they are not now, a couple of seasons of humidity changes they will be uneven as well.

However, the lining up of the artwork and wood as Zacaj mentions, such as the 2nd and 3rd pic of the lamp inserts as well as the Flying Carpet and AliBaba inserts is a good bit off. I'd be disappointed as well if I got a "Gold" playfield with those kind of errors.....

The email issues, while unfortunate, sometimes can and do happen. Sometimes the first email gets missed for whatever reason, which is why I always followup later if I don't get a response in a reasonable time.

Looks like Kevin is trying to work with the OP, so I hope it works out......

Yeah, and if it was once, I'd just chalk it up to bad luck, but emailing multiple times... And still, not something the customer should have to account for

Pinballin ain't easy. When you spend $ expectations can be high and understandably so. CPR does a great service for all of us, and I'm thankful for that. But if you want a perfect playfield you know what you need to spend and do. Your buying an off the shelf playfield and having expectations of a Kruzman work of art.

I hear you, I just don’t know that I would consider twice “multiple times”. And if it was twice during the period when they were having issues, you would expect the same result....no response.

Again, I’m not justifying it, I’m just saying too many people these days rely on texting and email, as opposed to just picking up a phone. If you actually talk to a person, they can’t come back later and say they never talked to you, or “didn’t get the email”.

I guess I mean, unless the two were the same day: a one day outage is bad but multiple days of lost emails?

When you fire one host and hire a new one you may lose weeks (2&1/2 in this case) worth. That's part of the reason they fired their old host- unmet expectations.
Kevin already said CPR is working through the backlog of email.
"emails off the new web site Contact page, from the last 2 - 2.5 weeks. Which only got popped for the first time this past tuesday. We're still going through those."

Would I wait and pay more to get perfect? Yes and I have. Many do that is why Ron has a job doing what he does. Some want things as nice as they can be, others ok is good enough. I am not saying CPR should change anything. I am saying if you want perfect send it out.

hygroscopic, Unless your using your playfield as an underwater telescope

Yes, and the OP is perfectly within rights to be annoyed that a commercial company is 3 weeks behind on email. Bad server management isn't his problem.

Plus, I work in website hosting, etc. You can totally move a site without any downtime or lost info if done correctly. We do it all the time

They weren’t responding to emails in 2008 either...must’ve been the same issue.

Come-uppance is a bada-bitch.

I have too . And I do not regret it one bit!!
I should have said “be prepare to pay and wait...”, i I didn’t meant to sound like I was passing judgment on the decision, but to point out that’s the time and wallet cost of having everything be 100% perfect to the mill

I'd like to commend Kevin for defending himself so well and maintaining his composure.

Your second pictures are not lit the same as your complaint photos. Lighting is everything when making a case. I don't know why nobody talks on the phone these days. I bet a simple call could have resolved this earlier. You have the right to not be happy if that is your opinion and choice. I hope you send it back and get your money. Then you should retouch your old playfield and clear it yourself. It seems like you have the skills needed and would possibly be a lot happier. I hope both parties can resolve this and be happy. PS why not just PM your number to Kevin and ask for a phone call?

While I don't want to get involved in this specific issue I can say my other CPR's look better than the op's pictures. Maybe it's the magnification and angle?

With all this server/email talk I'm worried my preorder spot is missing. Did all the "people in waiting" orders get moved or accounted for?

Either way customer service is really what this is about. At my work we pulled out a million dollars worth of product and went with something else. Not because the hardware/boards are bad but because we couldn't get a simple return phone call about a question. The CEO came to the shop and when I told him the reason he said "we can sell you a service contract". I said when we have a million or more of your product with large expansion planned we shouldn't have to pay you $5,000 for a 5 minute phone call twice a year.

I have to agree with the OP as far as responding to emails in a timely fashion.

I have sent a few requests for being put on their list for certain playfields with absolutely no response whatsoever, even though I have seen other posts, post their email response back from CPR for doing the same thing. I don't even know whether I am on a list or not, due to the fact they do not respond back. Some emails sent prior to their website change. What's the excuse there??

How hard is it to respond back??? You find time to post stuff on this site, why can't you respond to email???

Listen I have to jump in here as someone completely unbiased and unfamiliar with the playfield business.

Why on EARTH does your 2nd set of photos look like garbage?!? They aren’t in focus and the glare and angles are horrible.
The CPR Pictures are like 4K ULTRA-HD and then the Batman and T2 pics look as if you dug out your old Nokia and snapped them.

If we’re complaining about consistency and quality can our complaints at least be... consistent and of quality?

Be sure to tell us how long it take for him to get back to you.

I don't know how many times I've told people this same thing and they wont listen. Buy the cheapest CPR one you can get because even there best sucks and will need to be Kruzman'd.
Sigh.....

John

Not to nitpick, but I'd say 'professional company' is a tad grandeur. We're still guys in basements and garages here. Most with fulltime jobs. The only rented places we have is the screen/stock shop (which we moved some things to 3 years ago), and two storage units across town. Not complaining about our scale... it actually fits what we're doing perfectly. But just want to make sure we're not imagined as some place with 20 cars parked outside, HR and tech departments, staff and switchboard, and our logo on the side of a building.

Pick up the phone and call them..........sheesh.

John

I'll try again.

With all this server/email talk I'm worried my preorder spot is missing. Did all the "people in waiting" orders get moved or accounted for?

Shhhhh.....it's on the playfield box's address label

(just in case you can't find it on the website while it's going through it's teething problems)

He'd rather spend time on pinside pleading his case. How much time wasted doing that. I agree...pick up the phone and call your customer for god sakes. Work something out with him.

It seems like nowadays it's too easy to blame the customer when they are not happy with a product, rather than just take responsibility for your work.

"I can't email you back because", I can't call you back because" I can't notify you because, man it never ends............