(Topic ID: 98819)

Classic Bally/Stern LED Adapter Kit - Vid's Review

By vid1900

7 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 331 posts
  • 63 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by northvibe
  • Topic is favorited by 133 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    View topic image gallery

    20210228_154933 (resized).jpg
    s-l1000 (resized).jpg
    DSC_0108 (resized).JPG
    20180220_182037[1] (resized).jpg
    20180220_182159[1] (resized).jpg
    MB-07-021 (resized).JPG
    MA-07-020 (resized).JPG
    MB-07-020 (resized).JPG
    MB-09_photo_3_(resized).JPG
    MB-09_photo_2_(resized).JPG
    MB-09_photo_1_(resized).JPG
    MB-09_Proto_(resized).JPG
    MB-08-010_(resized).JPG
    6_(resized).jpg
    5_(resized).jpg
    4_(resized).jpg

    There are 331 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 7.
    #151 5 years ago

    so before i go shopping for parts, can anyone verify that...
    2N5064 replaces 2N5060, and
    NTE5411 replaces MCR106-1
    ?

    #152 5 years ago
    Quoted from Sinbad:

    so before i go shopping for parts, can anyone verify that...
    2N5064 replaces 2N5060, and
    NTE5411 replaces MCR106-1
    ?

    2N5060/2N5064/NTE5400 and MCR106-1/ NTE5411 are the part numbers. 2N5064 just has a higher voltage rating.

    #153 5 years ago

    thanks gents...

    #154 5 years ago

    connectors re-pinned however wont have the transistors until next week, waiting game so i may as well re-pin the entire machine...

    #155 5 years ago

    Would replacing the resistor blocks on these boards with some other value help solve the problem?

    Edit
    I'm now convinced it's the boards. Sometimes globes that work, don't and other times globes that strobe, don't.

    It's very inconsistent and rather disappointing that I now have to revert back to incandescent globes.

    #156 5 years ago

    The boards are tried and true. Unless the resistors are just flat out bad, the boards are going to work.

    In my experience, I've been able to get a few LEDs to work without the boards. As more LEDs on the playfield light, the ones that were working start to strobe.

    Replacing all bulbs with LEDs and going into lamp test made it very easy to see which SCRs needed to be replaced as there would be a couple LEDs strobing. New SCRs took care of the problem.

    #157 5 years ago

    Replaced about 12 scr's today and that solved the issue for 10 of the lamps, two still remain a problem.

    So firstly I eat my words about it being the boards at fault, clearly they work as intended.
    Secondly, how do I progress from here, 1k resistor across the lamp sockets?

    #158 5 years ago
    Quoted from Sinbad:

    Replaced about 12 scr's today and that solved the issue for 10 of the lamps, two still remain a problem.
    So firstly I eat my words about it being the boards at fault, clearly they work as intended.
    Secondly, how do I progress from here, 1k resistor across the lamp sockets?

    Yes, adding the 1k lamp across the socket would then create 2 resistors in parallel (the 1st being the SIP resistor @ 1k, the 2nd being the resistor across the lamp socket @ 1k). You can use this parallel resistance calculator to see that in doing that, a 500 ohm resistance value is created: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-paralresist.htm So this would put a bit extra load on the couple of remaining lamps and will likely solve the problem.

    #159 5 years ago

    I've been having the same problem with my setup. After confirming the resistance was correct at the boards, I assumed it was some old SCR's. However, when I replaced a few of them I still had flicker. Testing today, it looks like I need an additional 470 ohms (tried 470 and 1k, 1k did not work) at the bulb. I think I have about 6-10 bulbs that flicker, some go in and out. My question is would a 270-300 ohm SIP work ok in the boards if I replaced the 1k ones? Or would heat/current be a concern here? For some reason my unhealthy desire to keep my crappy classic stern bulb arrays looking "clean" is trying to convince me not to just solder in the stupid 470 ohm resistors and be done with it... And when someone tells me to stop being foolish, presumably a 1/4 W 470 will be fine right?

    #160 5 years ago
    Quoted from setzkor:

    My question is would a 270-300 ohm SIP work ok in the boards if I replaced the 1k ones? Or would heat/current be a concern here? For some reason my unhealthy desire to keep my crappy classic stern bulb arrays looking "clean" is trying to convince me not to just solder in the stupid 470 ohm resistors and be done with it... And when someone tells me to stop being foolish, presumably a 1/4 W 470 will be fine right?

    Well, some quick math and conversion calculators. The feature lamp bus is roughly 6vdc I believe.

    I=V/R = 6v / 300ohm = 0.02 A (20mA).

    Plug 20mA into here: http://www.convertunits.com/from/mA/to/watt/volt and it's saying 0.02watt/volt.
    That seems to indicate "watts per volt", meaning 6 * 0.02W = 0.12 Watts

    I tried another calculator here http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/Amp_to_Watt_Calculator.htm and with 0.02A, 6v entered.. it's showing 0.12W.

    If those calculations are correct, then it's not really the best idea to have 0.12W going through a 1/8W (0.125W) rated 300ohm SIP resistor. You're better off putting a resistor in parallel *somewhere*.. you could do that on the adapter board with individual 1/8 watt resistors wired in parallel to the SIP (heat-shrink tubing around their leads.. one lead to common, the other to the SIP pin corresponding to the lamp you were addressing). Alternatively, you could "double up" the SIP resistor and solder the same pin count bussed 1k SIP resistor to the back of the board (matching the common pin to the common pin, etc). Either way, you'd knock down resistance to 500ohm by using a 1k parallel resistor and with wiring in parallel you'd gain extra wattage rating. Wiring the additional parallel resistance at the sockets is probably the better approach in terms of still being able to return the adapter board if it was faulty in some way and not "void your warranty" though.

    You can calculate parallel resistance here http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-paralresist.htm -- just plug in "1000" for the first resistor and then try other values for the 2nd resistor and hit calculate.

    IMHO these adapters are more likely to solve 90-95% of the problem, leaving a few additional lamps that need to be tweaked to work properly. Maybe for some people they do hit 100% of the problem and that's great. But there's likely to be a few lamps not wanting to play nice..either due to differences in SCR characteristics, connectors that need to be repinned, cracked solder joints on the LDB headers, or maybe even just different led characteristics. Seems that when people see "eliminators" they think they'll solve all of their problem and don't expect to be fiddling around, but even just judging from the history on RGP of using parallel resistors to solve lamp flickering, there was less of a "perfect science" to it.. and more just trial-and-error in finding values that worked per individual machine. Just my 2 cents.

    #161 5 years ago

    Thanks for the info. Confirmed my thought that it would be too much current for the SIP, I will plan on soldering a few resistors at the lamp.

    I don't in any way want to give the impression that I'm not happy with my purchase of these adapters. I think they work great, and would buy them again for sure even with the extra soldering on a few sockets. Soldering 10 or so sockets beats the 60 or so I would have had to do otherwise. They give a very clean look and are easily removed to make it "stock" if that's what is desired.

    #162 5 years ago

    You could solder two 680 ohm SIPs in parallel to get below 470 ohm's and thereby doubling the 1/8watt (loading shared between the two).

    #163 5 years ago

    1k. Resistor across the remaining sockets has done the trick! Everything works as it should.
    Thanks to all who lent a hand to help me out! I'd buy these boards again in a heartbeat.

    #164 5 years ago

    Yeah, that's why I hesitated to go lower than 1k on the SIP resistors. But there is some room for me to lower the resistance if people keep having issues like this pop up. It's uncommon for sure, but it does happen, and that's enough for it to have my attention. I might just build up a few sets with lower ohm resistors in them to hold onto for somebody reporting a problem board set, to see if it does help the issue.

    It's part of the problem with making any kind of adapter, conversion, or accessory for machines as old as these Bally's. Tolerances back then were so much wider, then add in 30 years of performance degradation, and trying to do things that weren't part of the design envelope at the time. It's never easy to get a handle on all the variables.

    I do appreciate the words of support, plus all the honest feedback. It all really helps me to keep making these better.

    Which reminds me, I'll have prototypes on display at MGC of sets for both style aux lamp boards. Unfortunately, they're not ready for Beta testing yet, next small run though will be. Had do a couple of changes already, once I had them in-hand and worked on assembly. Some electrical, some just dimensional.

    -Hans

    #165 5 years ago

    Hans, a suggestion if I may, given I have removed these boards about a dozen times, it would be better to use a more robust single female connector on the underside as the current ones tend to bend and flex too much.

    #166 5 years ago

    I wish I could, they don't come any longer than the ones I use.

    1 week later
    #167 5 years ago

    Heads Up!

    I'm running a sale on these led adapters as they haven't been moving much for me. Could be something to do with the rest of my stuff being mostly niche diagnostic equipment

    $40.00ea @ http://www.pinitech.com/products/sc_ballystern_led_adapter.php

    #168 5 years ago

    was all of this worth the 50 bucks you saved by not using the alltek board? the siegecraft work well but the extra 50 bucks reduces the number of physical connections back down by half and you get all new lamp driver components.

    #169 5 years ago
    Quoted from rcbrown316:

    was all of this worth the 50 bucks you saved by not using the alltek board?

    Like it says in post#1, if your LDB is all hacked up, get the Alltek.

    For people who have a bunch of classic Bally, the savings quickly add up by using the boards.

    #170 5 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Like it says in post#1, if your LDB is all hacked up, get the Alltek.
    For people who have a bunch of classic Bally, the savings quickly add up by using the boards.

    understood. in my case I dont do enough volume. btw if any of you needs an old lamp driver board hit me up. I have a few kicking around

    #171 5 years ago
    Quoted from rcbrown316:

    the extra 50 bucks reduces the number of physical connections back down by half

    Not really a big deal when your flippers have a minimum of 6 connections and draw way more current.

    That said, sometimes you have to replace SCRs that worked fine with incandescents and then there's the cleaner look of not having boards hanging off every connector. I can see your point. As Vid said, it all depends how much money you want to fork out.

    #172 5 years ago

    Once installed and backglass on, machine working reliably you'll never even care which solution option you ended up choosing, so just go the cheaper option, ie these boards.

    2 weeks later
    #173 5 years ago

    Freebie offer!

    I have one set now, and two more sets in about a week, of prototypes for the -52 AUX lamp boards. This is the bigger board with dual output headers. Want a set free? You can have one! Just shoot me a PM.

    Here's the catch. They're prototypes, so I'll need some feedback on a few things. Functionality, clearance, and wiring harness length in particular. I 'THINK' they're going to fit and function, but I haven't confirmed it yet. That's why I'm sending them out free. You'll also have to assemble your own wiring harnes. I'll include some cut-down connectors, wire, and crimps .... but you'll have to figure out length and report back.

    -Hans

    #174 5 years ago
    Quoted from HHaase:

    Freebie offer!
    I have one set now, and two more sets in about a week, of prototypes for the -52 AUX lamp boards. This is the bigger board with dual output headers. Want a set free? You can have one! Just shoot me a PM.
    Here's the catch. They're prototypes, so I'll need some feedback on a few things. Functionality, clearance, and wiring harness length in particular. I 'THINK' they're going to fit and function, but I haven't confirmed it yet. That's why I'm sending them out free. You'll also have to assemble your own wiring harnes. I'll include some cut-down connectors, wire, and crimps .... but you'll have to figure out length and report back.
    -Hans

    What games had the -52 boards? I can't recall when they started being used at the moment.

    #175 5 years ago

    Space Invaders, Xenon, Flash Gordon, Eight Ball Deluxe (all versions), Fireball II, Embryon, Fathom, Medusa, Elektra, Vector, Speakeasy, Mr/Mrs Pac.

    #176 5 years ago

    I have a Bally Elektra with quite a bit of ghosting. I have Cointaker premium non-ghosting LEDs and Altek LED lamp driver and aux lamp driver boards installed. Has anyone else witnessed this?

    I think I going to purchase Hans' board solution and try it out. Should I not use both the Altek boards and Hans' adapter kit in the same machine ?

    #177 5 years ago

    If you flip the switch on the Altek, does it get worse, or stay the same?

    #178 5 years ago
    Quoted from HHaase:

    I have one set now, and two more sets in about a week, of prototypes for the -52 AUX lamp boards. This is the bigger board with dual output headers. Want a set free? You can have one! Just shoot me a PM.

    I just noticed this .. I have pretty much all the games on the list, and in happy to try them all out for you. And I'll pay for postage. Let me know if they're still available.

    rd

    #179 5 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    If you flip the switch on the Altek, does it get worse, or stay the same?

    Stupid question ... What switch ?

    #180 5 years ago
    Quoted from bayoubilly70:

    Stupid question ... What switch ?

    Not literally a switch, but there is a required jumper wire that brings buss voltage to the board on TP13 if you want to use LEDs.

    If you lift this off the test point, does the problem get worse or stay the same?

    #181 5 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Not literally a switch, but there is a required jumper wire that brings buss voltage to the board on TP13 if you want to use LEDs.
    If you lift this off the test point, does the problem get worse or stay the same?

    Okay, I removed the TP13 jumper wire for both lamp and auxiliary lamp board. This totally eliminated the ghosting the the game's controlled lamps all look awesome, ON and OFF - completely - when they should be.

    What did I learn?

    1. You are super awesome - thanks so much for your post to help me
    2. That I don't understand why this fixed the issue - could you elaborate how this fixed it? I thought that I had to tie those jumpers to the backbox controlled lighting fatter wires in order to use LEDs..

    Thanks again!

    #182 5 years ago

    Ok, I have Vid and Dave down for samples of the aux boards. One more set to allocate here, free if you provide feedback!
    I'll try to get them all out this weekend. I am honestly buried in things to do right now.

    #183 5 years ago
    Quoted from HHaase:

    One more set to allocate here, free if you provide feedback!

    Just stopped by to say the original set up works great in my Nine Ball!
    Thanks for the great product, super easy to install.
    Arrived just yesterday through Pinballlife.

    I'd be more than happy to give the sample a try in Elektra for you. Sent you a PM.

    #184 5 years ago

    Glad you like them, and Pinball Life has been real good to me with these.

    All the samples have been claimed, hoping to have them sent out on Monday. Just a matter of finding time to assemble in between paying customers.

    #185 5 years ago

    INSTALLING -52 AUX LAMP DRIVER BOARD LED ADAPTERS

    =======================================

    These boards from Siegecraft allow you to install LEDs without flicker for lamps that are driven by the Aux Lamp Driver -52.

    As the Bally games became more complex in the 80s, Bally added the Aux boards so they could add more CPU driven lamps.

    A dozen or so of 80s games have these boards:

    Eight Ball Deluxe (all the different versions)
    Elektra
    Embryon
    Fathom
    Flash Gordon
    Fireball II
    Medusa
    Mr & Mrs Pacman
    Space Invaders
    Speakeasy
    Vector
    Xenon

    Note that the kit comes with an 18 and 20 pin adapter, each with a bi-pin power connector.

    2_(resized).jpg

    #186 5 years ago

    Here, we'll install a set in Xenon, because that's probably the most popular of the above games, but their all pretty similar.

    The -52 Aux Lamp Driver board in it's natural state:

    1_(resized).jpg

    #187 5 years ago

    Here we can see the 18 and 20 pin connectors with their female counterparts removed.

    Note the missing Key Pins that keep the connectors from being installed backwards:

    3_(resized).jpg

    #188 5 years ago

    You need to cut one Keying Pin from each adapter board.

    On the 20 pin adapter, cut off pin #2

    On the 18 pin adapter, cut off pin #3

    -

    Then install the adapter boards on the -52 board.

    4_(resized).jpg

    #189 5 years ago

    Here are the installed adapters from another angle for clarity.

    5_(resized).jpg

    #190 5 years ago

    The final step is to bring power to the adapter boards.

    Grab power from one of the lamp runs near the -52 board, daisy chain the power to the second adapter board. Once you test that it works, secure the power wire to the power bus with a drop of solder.

    How to identify the proper place to grab power from is in this post, earlier in this thread:

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/classic-ballystern-led-adapter-kit-review#post-1809978

    Here I used 2 different color wires to better demonstrate the daisy chain, but you will only need to use a single color:

    6_(resized).jpg

    #191 5 years ago

    Total install time was 7 minutes.

    Now you can install LED lamps everywhere that are driven by the -52 board without annoying flicker.

    http://www.siegecraft.us/

    #192 5 years ago

    Vid. .. much appeciated. Hoping to have this on the market soon, Vid got one of the first prototypes for the aux boards. Waiting for some more long term feedback before pulling the trigger, and have two more sets either shipped or about to ship.

    How is clearance on the back side in regards to the those SCR's? Think I need to move the connectors tighter together? Work ok with the lamps?

    -Hans

    #193 5 years ago
    Quoted from HHaase:

    How is clearance on the back side in regards to the those SCR's?

    About 1/64" of clearance.

    Users with SCRs that have been replaced (and thus are mounted taller than stock), will want to slightly bend all the SCRs in the row down for clearance.

    #194 5 years ago

    Hadn't looked in here in a few days.
    As usual, Vid is way ahead of me.
    I put the prototype aux board adapter into my Elektra.
    My install time was a few minutes longer than Vid's, but I work more slowly.
    Easy install and works great. The lamps driven from the aux board now look great with LEDs.
    I connected to the power lower on the insert board and connected the boards together in reverse of what Vid did. They just need to be connected together and to power once.

    (Hans - I emailed you a couple of pics through your website. They look pretty identical to the photos Vid posted here.)

    1 week later
    #195 5 years ago

    I just installed this on my Fireball II. Works great and easy to install. Did not do anything to the auxiliary driver and the strobes work fine. I have an Alltek lamp driver board in my KISS machine and the aux driver driven leds are ok too. The Fireball II came alive w/led lamps. Haven't made it to the playfield inserts yet. All good so far.....

    #196 5 years ago

    Good feedback folks, I really appreciate it. I'm just a bit paranoid about dimensional issues popping up in the future, which bit me a few times on the main adapter sets. So if you have any other machines where that aux board is a very tight fit, and might have some interference, let me know if any problems come up.

    -Hans

    #197 5 years ago
    Quoted from HHaase:

    I'm just a bit paranoid about dimensional issues popping up in the future,

    You could include a Fishpaper that would insulate the back of the boards from touching all the transistors maybe?

    #198 5 years ago

    That's one thing I'm considering. I'm also looking at how close I can get those two connector headers. For a lot of us fishpaper would be perfect, but I just know there will be somebody who leaves it out and then blames me a damaged board.

    -Hans

    #199 5 years ago

    Nice work Vid.

    #200 5 years ago

    If I can get up the money for that Xenon before someone else does, I will want one of these.

    There are 331 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 7.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside