(Topic ID: 51762)

Classic Bait and Switch, Seller to Avoid


By dgpinball

7 years ago



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  • 42 posts
  • 35 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by LOTR_breath
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    #1 7 years ago

    I normally would not post something like this, but people need to know about it.

    A friend of mine, fairly new to the hobby, purchased an Indiana Jones off of Ebay from Prestige1, for a very substantial price. It was advertised as completely gone thru, everything cleaned and tested, 100% working, you know the usual stuff. The auction had plenty of pictures and it looked very good.

    All in all, even though I considered the price high, it seemed like it would be a nice machine.

    First red flag was when the seller said it wouldn't be shipped for 3 weeks, they needed to "double check" everything, make sure it was working perfectly. Turned out it was more like 5 weeks before it actually shipped. After another 10 days, the game finally arrived, had to clear customs and all that, so my friend was very excited. Well, excitement soon turned to extreme disappointment, the game was very dirty inside, cabinet was somewhat faded and had gouges in several places, game was as far from shopped as you can get. We brought up the auction pics and soon realized that this was not the game pictured in the auction, several very obvious differences, including different, misaligned head decals, mismatched flipper buttons, and marks on the cabinet. Even the auction description was way different from what was received. This was a classic bait and switch, and the reason for the delay in shipping the game now seemed pretty obvious, they had to find one to ship!!!!

    He was tempted to just make the best of it, but as he got further into the game, it became apparent just how poor quality an example it was, so he filed a paypal complaint and started down the painful road to send the game back and get refunded. Because the game crossed the border this was much more complicated than just the shipping, I'll skip the details, but by the time the dust settled my friend was $1500 poorer with no game.

    Unfortunately, the auction has now disappeared from Ebay as it took forever for the final claim to be settled.

    I hope that this was just an isolated incident, but I thought it should be brought to light, this kind of thing should not happen, but when it does, the seller needs to be held accountable.

    #2 7 years ago

    Oh that sucks, sorry to hear that. You guys up in Canada really get the short end of the stick on pin purchases. Seems like you almost have to go NIB to protect yourselves from overpaying or getting handed a situation like this.

    #3 7 years ago

    Sucks to hear stories like those. Hope your friend don't get discourage from this hobby .

    #4 7 years ago
    Quoted from Monarca1091:

    Sucks to hear stories like those. Hope your friend don't get discourage from this hobby .

    No, it didn't discourage him at all, he's going full steam ahead. Fortunately he was able to stand on principle and could afford to take the financial hit. One of the main reasons I posted this was to alert others, as this kind of thing could be devastating financially to some.

    #5 7 years ago

    Wow that sucks Dale! Thx for headsup!

    #6 7 years ago

    Man that sucks, I'm always nervous when I can't see the pin first. Unfortunately we aren't always in a good position for that .

    #7 7 years ago

    Holy crap. You have 99 pins!

    I actually go out of my way to be nice to Canadians because I'd like to live there someday, and almost every Canadian I've met is a pleasure to be with.

    #8 7 years ago

    I hate it when people get scammed like this. I've seen several time where people advertise for pins with words like " completely shopped", "excelent condition", "very clean", etc... Then I go there, and its far from truth.

    #9 7 years ago

    What is the location of the bad seller, Prestige1?

    #10 7 years ago

    Some people. That really sucks, sorry to hear.

    #11 7 years ago

    I will echo the above sentiments. That's a huge drag. It's great to hear that he's not discouraged though. Thanks for the heads up.

    #12 7 years ago

    With paypal, don't you get all your money back? and then doesn't the seller have to pay for the shipping? why did this transaction cost him money? my understanding of paypal is if you're not happy, you complain, and you get all your money back. then the seller must deal with getting the merchandise back. i thought that was why buyers like paypal?

    #13 7 years ago
    Quoted from cfh:

    With paypal, don't you get all your money back? and then doesn't the seller have to pay for the shipping? why did this transaction cost him money?

    I think claims have to be made within a specific period of time. I'm guessing that the seller deliberately waited so long to ship so as that a claim couldn't be made.

    #14 7 years ago

    May the fleas of a thousand camels infest the sellers armpits, and may his arms be too short to scratch 'em! Thanks for the heads-up on this dbag.

    Todd

    #15 7 years ago
    Quoted from hlaj78:

    What is the location of the bad seller, Prestige1?

    I'm not for certain but it could be Detroit area? I could very likely be wrong though.

    John P. Dayhuff
    Battle Creek, Mi.
    269-979-3836

    #16 7 years ago

    Maybe this can help others, This came from a Prestige1 listing on ebay:

    ABOUT GAMES WE PLAY
    You can see and play the game -and many others about 30 to check out in our showroom if you like. Any questions or concerns you can call us at 248-960-2335 Please see our web site for more gameroom fun… We sell Fun!!!
    Games We Play is a Full Service Brick and Mortar Business. Our customer showroom has many Pinball Machines and Arcade Games to choose from. We offer:
    · Full Time Electronics and Systems Technicians
    · Huge Parts Department.
    · Free Technical Phone Support for all of our customers
    · In addition, we can come to you home for service or arrange technical support in other geographies.

    This is a challenging game with lots of features to keep you entertained. Its Striking Graphics and great mechanical features make it a great addition to any billiard room or recreation room…

    #17 7 years ago
    Quoted from cfh:

    With paypal, don't you get all your money back? and then doesn't the seller have to pay for the shipping? why did this transaction cost him money? my understanding of paypal is if you're not happy, you complain, and you get all your money back. then the seller must deal with getting the merchandise back. i thought that was why buyers like paypal?

    It's not that easy. I know some Pinsiders will lead you to believe it is, but not in my expeirence. Basically the buyer can send game back full full refund at their cost or agree on reduced price with seller. It's possible I assume for a more favorable outcome, but it's not the norm.

    #18 7 years ago

    yeah sucks alright. too bad you didn't try to stop him from buying off ebay. as a friend i don't let friends drive drunk or buy off ebay.

    #19 7 years ago
    Quoted from vex:

    yeah sucks alright. too bad you didn't try to stop him from buying off ebay. as a friend i don't let friends drive drunk or buy off ebay.

    I bought my SS off ebay and while talking to the guy on the phone he even came down $300. He even had a 12 min. vid of the game playing so I knew it was the same game and it worked 100%.

    #20 7 years ago

    I have been to the showroom once. Here is there website

    Games We Play
    www.pinball4u.com
    1877 E West Maple Rd Walled Lake, MI 48390
    (248) 960-2335

    #21 7 years ago

    Sheesh sounds like the guy who ordered a nib Big buck hunter from automated a few months ago and got a used model . Whats up with these stores ? I'll stick with on site inspection

    #22 7 years ago
    Quoted from IntralotTech:

    I have been to the showroom once. Here is there website
    Games We Play
    http://www.pinball4u.com
    1877 E West Maple Rd Walled Lake, MI 48390
    (248) 960-2335

    Their business name should have been the first warning sign

    #23 7 years ago

    Sorry to hear that happened to your friend. Especially to a newcomer to the hobby.
    I am also a newcomer with only 1 successful purchase under my belt. That purchase I drove to California to pick up in person and was from a fellow Pinsider.
    I find that most Pinsiders will go out of their way to help another Pinsider just because of their true passion for Pinball. I have had Pinsiders offer to look at a machine that is close to them to make sure it is what is advertised. I have asked other Pinsiders if they have heard of a particular seller.
    My point is if we can work together as a group we can expose these bad eggs before anything like what happened to your friend can happen again.
    Most Pinsiders on this site will let you know if something isn't Kosher. All you have to do is ask.
    So lets keep the lines of communication open and expose these rats!
    I hope your friend isn't too discouraged. It's a great hobby and mostly made up of great people that just love to talk and play Pinball.

    #24 7 years ago

    here's what your friend needs to try in future. Have the seller get the shipping quote for NAVL or whoever and have him include the shipping cost with the purchase. Then if there is a problem, he will get at least the shipping refunded for one way.
    When you return it make sure you send it back to the exact address paypal tells you, even if it's to the Thule Air Base in Greenland. I made that mistake, a seller scammed me in a similar way, but finally agreed to take it back. I knew the paypal address registered for him was his home address and I thought I would be nice and ship it back to his business, the address he shipped it from. Well paypal then balked at that, and the seller realizing his break, refused delivery, and instead of paying once again to have it shipped back, I just offered the machine for free to anyone that wanted to pick it up. I also lost the claim on paypal since I didn't send it back to the address I was suppose to, despite the fact I proved it was to the same person, and the seller played dumb when paypal asked him about it.
    You have 90 days to file a claim with paypal.

    But yes, if you buy a pinball online anywhere and use paypal, they will not refund you the shipping, just make sure you are aware of that. Even though I spent countless hours with many photos showing how I was defrauded, they would not grant a claim unless I paid to ship it back, and of course I was out the shipping to me. Bad sellers know this, they will send you crap knowing that no matter how pissed you are, you'll probably keep eat rather than eat the two way shipping cost.

    #25 7 years ago
    Quoted from aberdeentp:

    here's what your friend needs to try in future. Have the seller get the shipping quote for NAVL or whoever and have him include the shipping cost with the purchase. Then if there is a problem, he will get at least the shipping refunded for one way.
    When you return it make sure you send it back to the exact address paypal tells you, even if it's to the Thule Air Base in Greenland. I made that mistake, a seller scammed me in a similar way, but finally agreed to take it back. I knew the paypal address registered for him was his home address and I thought I would be nice and ship it back to his business, the address he shipped it from. Well paypal then balked at that, and the seller realizing his break, refused delivery, and instead of paying once again to have it shipped back, I just offered the machine for free to anyone that wanted to pick it up. I also lost the claim on paypal since I didn't send it back to the address I was suppose to, despite the fact I proved it was to the same person, and the seller played dumb when paypal asked him about it.
    You have 90 days to file a claim with paypal.
    But yes, if you buy a pinball online anywhere and use paypal, they will not refund you the shipping, just make sure you are aware of that. Even though I spent countless hours with many photos showing how I was defrauded, they would not grant a claim unless I paid to ship it back, and of course I was out the shipping to me. Bad sellers know this, they will send you crap knowing that no matter how pissed you are, you'll probably keep eat rather than eat the two way shipping cost.

    Same thing happened to me with a Part Me Zone, my first and last Ebay purchase when I first got into the hobby.
    I had to close a checking acct. and cancel a credit card to get rid of Payenemy.
    I will never buy anything off of Eprey or use Payenemy for anything again.
    If the game is not local and I can't see it then I don't want it and I sure don't need another Eturd.

    #26 7 years ago

    I have seen pinball ads on Kijiji that show pins for sale. The pictures have been taken straight from IPDB. Sellers should show the pictures of the pinball they are actually selling. I seen car dealer ads that show a car that is a factory type of picture, not the same thing they are offering you.

    #27 7 years ago
    Quoted from tracelifter:

    Same thing happened to me with a Part Me Zone

    Sorry for your experience Tracelifter, but I must admit the "Part Me Zone" was a pretty darn funny play on words.

    #28 7 years ago

    The most unfortunate thing in all this was the unrecoverable costs, brokerage fees, shipping and taxes. He may still be able to get the taxes back, but they don't make it easy, and after a while you just get worn out trying.

    A first experience like this might have discouraged most people, but not him, he's bought some very nice games since then, including another Indy, and made out just fine.

    #29 7 years ago

    Sorry to hear his first seller was a huge douche canoe.

    Glad he did not get discouraged. As for the seller what a POS.

    #30 7 years ago

    feel for your friend, im at the point if real money is involved, its best to really go look at the game in real life first- just seems like flaws are too often overlooked in the descriptions maybe by ignorance, maybe by ecomomic motive.......

    #31 7 years ago

    I think most people here understand they can be screwed on Ebay, that's not much help. Unless I missed it, I don't believe you posted the name of the seller. Who was the seller?

    Stories like this are exactly why I laugh at people on here who quote Ebay prices or threaten to send something to Ebay if it doesn't sell. Ebay is risky for both the buyer and seller, more so the seller.

    I would have shot for restitution to make myself whole and sold the game locally. If I buy something on ebay, I put it on a credit card. If PayPal didn't take care of me I would have disputed the charge. Yah, it could be $100+ in PayPal fees, but I consider it insurance.

    Quoted from dgpinball:

    One of the main reasons I posted this was to alert others, as this kind of thing could be devastating financially to some.

    #32 7 years ago

    I'm the friend Dale was talking about. Some clarifications: PayPal requires the buyer to pay for the return shipping as part of the dispute process. There is no way around that. Their way of thinking is that the buyer just changed his mind or has buyers remorse.
    They have no dispute process for clear fraud (bait and switch is fraud). If I want to recover my damages (non-recoverable fees, return shipping etc.) I would need to go after the seller via the police and failing that, sue him in small claims court. This all just would add more cost with the outcome being uncertain.

    The seller also made sure not to implicate himself. I've asked him multiple times (via email) if the machine shipped to me is the same as the one advertised on eBay and he completley ignored me. He was also ducking my phone calls.

    Btw, the pin also had scratches on the playfield (not in the eBay photos) and the gun (silver in color) was bent quite strongly. On the photos the gun was black and straight.

    I still have comparison photos I will upload and share tomorrow (not in the office right now). You will be appalled. This guy is the scourge of humanity. Scum. He knows exactly what he is doing and just hoped that I would be naive enough to not notice or care.

    I bought multiple pinballs from eBay and this was the only problem I've had.

    Cheers,
    Mike

    #33 7 years ago

    Fairly new to the hobby and you have 19 pins already! whoa...I'm maybe close to 20 in 6 or 7 years haha...scummy thief that guy is

    Tom

    #34 7 years ago
    Quoted from Rum-Z:

    Sorry for your experience Tracelifter, but I must admit the "Part Me Zone" was a pretty darn funny play on words.

    The game was my tuition paid in full for my pinball 101 class.
    The game was a floater but a little yellow spray paint and creative photography made it look really nice in the pics.

    My advice is to always look at the game and if you are a newb and don't know what to look for take someone along who does even if you have to pay a local tech to go with you.
    Ebay is an expensive crap shoot.

    #35 7 years ago

    Bad story.Ebay is Ebay .

    #36 7 years ago

    IC3.GOV FTW

    #37 7 years ago
    Quoted from tomdotcom:

    Fairly new to the hobby and you have 19 pins already! whoa...I'm maybe close to 20 in 6 or 7 years haha...scummy thief that guy is
    Tom

    I know how you feel, I've been doing this for 25 years, and he's 1/5 of the way to me in 5 months! Nice thing I get to play the ones that he has that I don't!!

    #38 7 years ago
    Quoted from jalpert:

    I think most people here understand they can be screwed on Ebay, that's not much help.

    But strangely enough, they don't know, cuz they keep on falling for this crap.

    It's so simple.. dont patronize eBay for high priced items from people you don't know, period! It's not like there's no other options.

    #39 7 years ago

    sounds like a bunch of bros to me?

    #40 7 years ago

    did you leave neg feedback?

    #41 7 years ago
    Quoted from Flavour:

    I'm the friend Dale was talking about. Some clarifications: PayPal requires the buyer to pay for the return shipping as part of the dispute process. There is no way around that. Their way of thinking is that the buyer just changed his mind or has buyers remorse.
    They have no dispute process for clear fraud (bait and switch is fraud). If I want to recover my damages (non-recoverable fees, return shipping etc.) I would need to go after the seller via the police and failing that, sue him in small claims court. This all just would add more cost with the outcome being uncertain.
    Mike

    Well once you buy sell over state lines its not realy this simple, Small claims and police reports need to made at the place of the transaction. usualy always the sellers location so you have to file small claims in his county and state. same goes with the police report for the transaction has actualy happened in the sellers location. outside law enforcement does little about an online transaction and then you also need to consider the other person statutes becouse likely they are different from your state.
    Due to interstate juristiction even if by somechance you got a judgement against that person in your home state it still wouldnt be enforcable in his state.
    this is the reason divorces, child custody etc most always has to be done at the places/counties and states they originate from.

    #42 7 years ago

    My one and only Ebay pin purchase was an AP. Bought it at a very favorable price. So nice was the price that even with NAVL from Arizona to Alabama it was at or below market value. It was not a "bait and switch" but the game was very far from the 100%, shopped, etc. garbage that most Ebay ads state. I spent almost 2 months getting everything working. I had a long and hard time locating a replacement Dr. Evil. You see, I was somewhat of a newbie and did not realize that in all of the pictures, Dr. Evil was below the playfield and not visible.

    In the end I was able to sell it for slightly less than I had in it, but vowed never to buy a pin on Ebay again.

    2008_0703AP0039.JPG

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