(Topic ID: 184739)

Class Action Lawsuit for TBL? The Big Lebowski / Dutch Pinball

By Davidus56

7 years ago


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  • Latest reply 3 years ago by lexi
  • Topic is favorited by 32 Pinsiders

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Topic index (key posts)

3 key posts have been marked in this topic

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Post #70 Link to Dutch Authority for Consumers and Markets Posted by Damon (7 years ago)

Post #105 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by RTR (7 years ago)


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#74 7 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

I've been in this for a long time and I'm staying until the end.

+1

I don't think we have much other choice realistically so let's all stay positive . It should be in ARA's and DP's interest to resolve their TBL dispute. The question to me is whether a third party helping them (and us potentially) to reach a mutual agreement is a viable option or will DP truly need to resort to legal action as stated in their email.

#161 7 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Erm, the whole thing with Phil was a HUGE red flag. DP insisted (and somewhat forced) a partner, who was sick, to stay with their project against his will and judgment so they could use his account to collect preorders.
Any time you send a new, unproven company nearly $10K, alarm bells automatically go off. You were just too deaf to hear them.

Yes - in retrospect, but history is always easier to predict by looking in a rearview mirror.

In addition to the points already made by Rarehero regarding the vastly different pre-order environment that existed within the hobby three years ago, I'd also recommend revisiting Coast2Coast podcast episodes # 126 and 127 for a reminder regarding what some reputable folks were thinking regarding TBL at the time of "Philgate" in early 2015.

#179 7 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

I don't think things were "vastly" different back then. BBB was at the precipice of failing multiple times and took huge effort from a lot of people to get done, not to mention Gene losing money on every game. Kingpin was proposed then abandoned. WOZ almost failed, requiring additional influx of cash to keep JJP afloat. The wheels were already starting to come off Predator (remember the expo where it sat broken all weekend?)
I

I disagree. The JPop, Skit-B, and (potentially) now DP debacles are the BIG reasons that the pre-order environment today is nowhere near what it was in 2014. The BBB and King Pin remake efforts are comparatively ancient history and as such, many hobbyists buying NIB games in 2014 weren't even aware of them.

#197 7 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I'm pretty sure at this point this group would sue the kid's grandmother and the bully's sick little brother to get their games.

As a member of this group I'd like to focus on getting a better understanding of what the reality with TBL is (DP's and ARA's actual difference) before rushing to sue anyone.

#209 7 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Buyers only have a purchase agreement with DP. The buck starts and ends with DP. If buyers sue DP, then DP would in turn sue ARA if they felt ARA was the root cause. This notion of who to go after is misguided. This is on DP and DP alone regardless of the root cause. Any talk of suing ara is off base and misguided. The only reason for ARA contact is to try and ferret out the truth because once again, when presented the option between truthfulness and deceit, DP chose the latter. This a DP problem regardless of who caused it. They don't get to tout the state of the art contract manufacturing facilities to help sell games in the beginning and now blame that same entity for the failure. People bought games from Dutch, not ARA. People don't give a shit how the sausage is made. Just get it made.

Yes - I agree ... DP is our concern Dude. And knowing the full reality of their issue(s) with ARA can only help in determining the best resolution to getting our TBLs.

#346 6 years ago
Quoted from chadderack:

I come here for stress release ...

Stress RELEASE?!

Laurel & Hardy laughing (resized).jpgLaurel & Hardy laughing (resized).jpg

You're in the wrong thread for that man.

#386 6 years ago
Quoted from ArcadiusMaximus:

Admittedly I have not read this whole thread, but I guess the basic issue here is ARA is demanding more money per machine from DP to complete production? Is this correct. I guess my question is wasn't there an agreed upon amount per machine from ARA to DP during contract negotiations? If so then what's the problem?

You are correct (according to DP) regarding ARA wanting more money per game, but no one has any real further info.

#394 6 years ago
Quoted from ArcadiusMaximus:

Well did ARA agree to the terms of the contract? If so then how do they even have a leg to stand on? You can't just raise prices mid manufacturing becasue you messed up your initial bid. Something isn't jiving here...

Something isn't jiving because we have practically no substantiated details to base anything on. The only thing that I know for a fact is that I've paid DP $8,500 for TBL #59 and have yet to receive it.

According to DP, ARA has supposedly not lived up to their agreement by unreasonably requiring more money per game and not meeting the set production schedule. According to ARA, DP has not paid them for any of the games that they've manufactured to date. Beyond that, as far as I'm aware, everything else is speculation by others.

#400 6 years ago
Quoted from Cobray:

Not what I heard. My understanding is that DP has not paid the extra 1000 euros per machine on the 100 machines that were manufactured. ARA shipped out roughly half of the machines and requested the 1000 euros for all 100 machines be paid before they shipped anymore.

Heard from who and is this based on actual verified info?! Regardless of what DP has actually paid or not paid, we're just going to have to await the outcome of their talks with ARA and then go from there.

#406 6 years ago

Interesting. I'd love to know the full story (including ARA's perspective) of course, but I'll just be happy to get my TBL.

1 week later
#412 6 years ago

Email from DP today:

"Two weeks ago we talked to ARA about restarting the production of TBL. Things look positive but we haven’t found a solution yet.

We have sent a proposal to ARA and are waiting for their response. As soon as we have their reaction we will let you know.

Kind regards,

Barry & Jaap"

#421 6 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

... tomorrow everything is closed here due to celebrating Kings birthday and Friday a lot of companies are still closed.

Don't TBL crises supersede Kings' birthday celebrations?!

#450 6 years ago

In the spirit of optimism (and a little wishful thinking):

"We are pleased to report that all prior business concerns between Dutch Pinball and ARA have been fully resolved and in accordance with a new contractual agreement, the following actions will take effect immediately:

1) All previously manufactured Big Lebowski games currently in the possession of ARA will be shipped immediately to their respective "Early Achiever" buyers.

2) Production of the remaining licensed Big Lebowski games will begin immediately with the 300th game to be completed no later than 12/31/2017.

3) Code upgrade Version 1.0, encompassing 100% of all prior advertised gameplay rules; video and audio clips; and acoustic music selections; will be released on May 31, 2017. Bonus code upgrades to be developed and released throughout the remainder of 2017.

4) As a token of our appreciation for their patience and loyalty, all Big Lebowski buyers shall receive a $1,000 coupon toward the purchase of our nearly complete Willy Wonka pinball game to be released in 2018.

So let it be written. So let it be done.

Thanks Dudes!"

1 week later
#470 6 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Don't wanna jinx it, but I heard some good news that I hope is true and pans out. If this news is correct, we are going to be very happy in a few days. Fingers crossed!

I heard this too. I sure hope K's sources are correct!

#483 6 years ago

FWIW (and maybe nothing, but better than hearing opposite):

https://m.soundcloud.com/kanedapinball/episode-120-dirty-donny

start at 02:55

#487 6 years ago
Quoted from maddog14:

Seriously, If it were me ...

Finally - some good advice from the gallery! Except you forgot about the souvenir pair of wooden shoes.

3 weeks later
#505 6 years ago
Quoted from Foxis:

One piece of advice from a EU citizen would be to look into EU consumer law. I am not sure it applies to non-EU citizens, but the framework itself is very strong, and if an EU citizen is one of the affected, the regulation could likely be used to coerce information if nothing else.
So, might be worth looking into. Good luck to everyone - would be a shame to see this ending in tears.

On behalf of myself and other Early Achievers (with ailing horses in this race) - thanks Dude!

1 month later
1 month later
#520 6 years ago

It's national vacation time in the Netherlands.

#523 6 years ago
Quoted from drsfmd:

For a month? Must kill their national productivity.

Work/life balance is important to Europeans. Pretty dude-like when you think about it.

Quoted from xbmanx:

How do i get in on the pre-order?

You buy my #59 slot.

#541 6 years ago
Quoted from Davidus56:

So, to return to the original question. Do we wait for more broken promises or go ahead and put them out of their misery with a lawsuit? I don't mind initiating the lawsuit. The goal would be for them to come clean on refunds, or barring that, force them into bankruptcy, then buy the rights to TBL. Someone like JJP or Spooky might make the game at that point. I imagine everyone with deposits would lose them, including me.
I'm just tired of excuses. I want my TBL and I would just as soon have someone else build it.

I'm as anxious as anyone to get my TBL, but I don't see a lawsuit from TBL buyers necessarily being the most productive option at this point.

DP seems to be moving forward and communicating regularly in good faith at this point. I vote to give them a chance to complete our games as proposed.

Early Achiever #59

#545 6 years ago

Why a lawsuit now as opposed to three or 6 months ago? Because some folks are suddenly surprised or upset that businesses in the Netherlands close down for part of August? Because DP isn't following thru fast enough on their current plan that they announced a few months ago, has been regularly communicated on, and will obviously take time to complete?

Yes - thank you, my game has apparently been sitting in Holland since last fall and I'm understandably unhappy about it as well as the CRAPPY options I have available to me for ever seeing it or my money. Spending additional funds on lawyers for a legal action in a foreign country and potentially killing any remaining possibility for getting my game just doesn't seem like the best option at this point though. I am open for viable solutions - but not the simple "Sue 'em!" solution offered, without any logical plan, by various posters with no apparent real knowledge of or financial stake in this matter.

#556 6 years ago

Today's update from Dutch Pinball for anyone who hasn't already seen it on the TBL pre-orderers thread:

"It’s Friday again so… here is your weekly update about the production of The Big Lebowski™ Pinball.

We introduced our friends Cointaker to our new Contract Manufacturer and both organizations were happy to meet each other via Skype. The three of us talked about 1.5 hours about plans and expectations and we concluded that 2018 will be a very good year for our three companies. We will introduce our new Contract Manufacturer to you at Expo in Chicago (from Wednesday, October 11 until Sunday, October 15) where we will do a presentation on Friday at 6PM.

This week we received almost all parts to start producing the 0-series. We are now waiting for the last parts to arrive so we are getting there! We still are on schedule that the first ‘new’ TBL will be ready in October. We still are on track to deliver the first ‘new’ TBLs before the end of this year.

Next week we will be back with another update.

Have a nice weekend!

Kind regards,

Barry & Jaap"

 

#564 6 years ago

If Barry and Jaap have something truly productive to say (and to show as well ideally), I don't personally have an issue with them attending or presenting at Expo.

Communication is a good thing - especially face-to-face.

BTW: love that avatar man!

1 year later
#577 5 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

I'm sure there's a lot more, but that's just what I recall off the top of my head.

There is, but you've provided a good start.

#602 5 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

... I'd love a big labowski it's my dream theme. I have big labowski shirts and merch, I even have a big labowski duvet cover on my bed ...

Lebowski dude

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