i did the same, suggest everyone does. I called my lawyer today but havent heard back, thinking about calling an international law firm monday morning to discuss the situation with them and have some light shed on potential options. Rarehero also mentioned calling Universal and Bally which i think is a really good idea, if enough of us call it could add some much needed pressure. Im thinking a good place to start for early achievers wanting refunds is email barry/jaap/dp asking for a formal refund and then pm me your name and ill start to put together a list for the lawyers to get an idea of how many people we got who have asked for refunds and been told no/not given them

100 percent this, everytime we fish, we find a lie. I just contacted VDL to get some insight into what exactly the nature of their relationship with DP is/whether or not they know about the customers currently waiting on TBLs paid in full with refunds refused/what the deal is with ARA/if TBL is exclusive to ARA. Hopefully theyll have some answers and not more questions.

This is the wrong attitude, weve given plenty of leeway, plenty of time. I think 3 years is more than enough "be cool" time. I think we need to face the fact that we will all likely never get our games unless Jaap and Barry magically transform into Gene Cunningham. This is similar to the victims of a ponzie scheme who blame the SEC or FEDS for "fucking it up for them." As if they wouldve gotten paid had the agency not stepped in to stop it. If its a ponzie scheme, youre gonna get fucked, and if not, nothing to worry about. If you have a better idea of what will, "help move this matter forward" please, by all means share, but i dont think its a good idea to sit around and wait, or to "trust" DP. The fact of the matter is theyre breaking the law by not giving us our refunds or our games. I didnt invest in a company, i bought a product.

Posted in the Pre Order club but just wanted to quote this over for the sake of visiblity, i keep hearing this assertion that because the payments were considered non refundable once production started that we arent entitled to refunds. Maybe someone smarter than myself can chime in, but my basic understanding is that we 100% have the right to refunds based on both European Consumer Rights and United States Consumer Rights. As an American, i can tell you, i will fuck your shit up if you try to fuck with my rights.

It saddens me that when i read this I immediately thought of the Skit-B/Predator thread. It makes me think of how different the hobby is from even 4 or 5 years ago. I remember a lot of similar sentiment in that thread to the statement above but its important to remember that the truth wont effect a company that isnt lying. We shouldnt be blaming each other, we need to rally as a community and demand basic rights from the people within our community. If we dont, who will? Why no refunds? If they have the money and a billion dollar contract manufacturing partner whats the problem? Its my legal right to a refund and they wont even pay me the courtesy of telling me WHY no refunds. Just no refunds and Im supposed to accept it and "be cool" after 3 years? I dont think I can do that. I cant think of another pinball manufacturer other than JPoP and Skit-B and DP who have had an extended lack of communication, followed by a multi year delay in manufacturing and then stated no refunds would be given. I think weve all tried really hard to give Barry and Jaap the benefit of the doubt, we all trusted them and sent them our hard earned money. We all accepted the delays and missteps, encouraging them along this whole path. I think its time they trust us to and allow us to leave our money in if we believe in them as a company or take it out if we dont.

Personally my biggest goal in calling monday to ARA/VDL/Bally/Universal will be to understand the basic framework and paradigm of the agreements. The biggest problem is that everything we know is through, for the most part, DP. We dont know whats true and whats not at this point. If someone hadnt called ARA wed all still think this was a board isssue, we were literally lied to, then told to our faces that we were lied to. Its difficult for me to trust what DP is telling me, id rather call the companies and ask them direct questions myself

You can doubt it but thats how we found about about all the board stuff. Someone emailed/spoke to ARA and they told us about the non payment from DP which led to where were at now.

I cant speak to Rarehero specifically but for me calling Universal is more of a fact finding mission. I grew up in LA, id think youd be suprised how much movie studios care about PR issues. If there's a company using their license to secure funding, then refusing to release the product or refunds they MAY want to know about it. Maybe they dont give a shit, itll take me an hour tops to call, so no big deal.
Im more concerned with talking to the folks at ARA and VDL than anything. Im curious with respect to VDL if theyre funding BoP, and if so, why they wouldnt just fund TBL instead. With ARA i have a long list of questions....

no they had/have a license from universal, i believe roger sharpe helped with the licensing stuff so its safe to assume that the license stuff is in order. i think what wolf meant was violating the license wouldn't cause the company to crash unless their were bigger issues, similiar to a house of cards where a small breeze might cause it to crash, but it wasnt the the breeze, it was the shitty foundation.

My intent was always to get everyone more information about the current situation and create a path for those customers who felt trepidation moving forward could come to a resolution with Dutch Pinball in regards to refunds. I felt that contacting agencies and companies that know more about this than ourselves was the best call. Nothing more, nothing less. I never said, "hey guys lets sue the shit out of DP." My goal was always to just get DP to honor the initial agreement of full refunds if you chose to cancel. I wanted to do is start a healthy conversation about what our options were, and what, as a community the best path was moving forward. It seems like theres a decent amount of vitriol and frustration in terms of whether or not we should or shouldnt contact people. I dont honestly know what the right answer is, but I dont want to be the guy to make that decision given where peoples emotions are at. Im not going to pursue this any further, I will not be calling or contacting anyone. I will likely try to find a private party to sell my TBL spot to whether it be through handshake agreement or through Barry and Jaap. Everyone has to do whats best for them, and I wish everyone the best of luck.

You keep saying that but I dont remember there ever being a stipulation on when orders could be refunded. Do have a link to where this was stated? According the FAQ from Dec-13 Oct-16 this was the only thing stated about refunds.

Lebowski Info.jpg

This is from post #23 https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/class-action-lawsuit#post-3674618
You may have missed it, so ill leave it for you here

"(Moderation mode on)
This is not the place to inform TBL achievers how dumb you think they were sending $ to Dutch Pinball.
Enough drama here, no need to rub their wounds.
This thread is about whether a class action makes sense or not - keep it on topic please.
Other DP/TBL related matters can be discussed in the main thread.
(moderation mode off)"

Dont know if you intended to be a dick but you def came off that way

I apologize as well, I didn't mean to jump down your throat, was just feeling a bit defensive/frustrated.