(Topic ID: 184739)

Class Action Lawsuit for TBL? The Big Lebowski / Dutch Pinball


By Davidus56

3 years ago



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  • Latest reply 11 months ago by whitey
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#251 3 years ago
Quoted from karl:

One of the things that led to trouble between DP and Phil was that Barry was taking money out of DP because he was working full time on TBL for awhile, while the others had jobs.
I do not remember how much it was and to be frank, I do not see a problem with this. I bet he was working like hell to get the prototype ready, and everybody needs to eat, right?

Depending on how he much he was taking, many could have a big problem with that.

#252 3 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

It regards to pinball history, there are very few equalities with the current DP situation in comparison with IPB and BBB. This also includes proposed prototypes and development of Kingpin, Wizard Blocks, or the "third" Playboy (which was another wistful idea dream, long before Stern built theirs in 2002).
I have seen this referenced several times recently.
The circumstances of manufacture, contracts (parts, labor, materials, construction), support, redesign, corrections, and prebuy are all vastly different with BBB.
The only thing that is even remotely comparative was TIME until completion, which has still not happened in the case of TBL.
Gene did not lie to the pinball community at the time who supported his dream, many of which were tied up in more than just deposits, but also time, effort, and experience, much of which was unpaid support.
DP's TBL was not a "community supported game of pinball experts", it was a crowdsourced project of new enthusiasts basically saying "give me my game ASAP."
Gene bowed out of taking preorders for another game, before he finished BBB.
Gene never changed his baseline pricing for those involved.
Gene was very clear about what was expected up front once pricing was determined, you were either in or your were out, no going back.
There was no distributor middle men bull#@!$ or "reindeer games".
That is enough for me to clearly indicate some basic differences.
I don't deny there were many naysayers from 2004-2007, but it was a different time on what was believed could and could not happen regarding pinball development and construction.
It is disrespectful and highly inappropriate for those that were a part of the "adventure" to use this as any form of comparison, as the sacrifices went well beyond Mr. Cunningham, if the history is fully understood.
These aspects do not apply here, in any form, whatever may be in DP's financial future, which I will not speculate, provide information, fan the flames, or "incur the wrath" of pre order buyers.
There is no doubt, however, interested enthusiasts can look to the past for guidance regarding buying games.

And for anyone interested in the BBB story, this was recently published:

http://www.polygon.com/features/2017/3/21/14937540/history-of-big-bang-bar-pinball

Like so many, it is providing a particular perspective and doesn't go over all details, but you know how that goes...

Brad

#253 3 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Depending on how he much he was taking, many could have a big problem with that.

Everyone who wanted out during the Phil meltdown got refunded. Everyone who staid in after that point had to make peace with the things he said. It was a tough pill to swallow then, but did it willingly cause I personally wanted the game and took the risk. For me, at that point that I decided to stay in, I had to come to terms with a chance of losing my money. But figured this is 'fun' money, not rent money so took the risk.

If this was their first make/break moment would have gotten more slack.. the fact that this is their second (and now without refunds available), trust is gone.

14
#254 3 years ago

There is some news: apparently ARA just fired their MD, Rene Versteeg, who I was supposed to call next week... I don't have any insights yet on the reasoning, but there may direct link on how ARA handled the DP account / TBL production process. Could also be something else... If this MD was responsible for the current TBL mess, things may move into a positive direction now...

#255 3 years ago

Well I guess this guarantees the TBL threads will remain on fire for a few more days.

Quoted from unigroove:

There is some news: apparently ARA just fired their MD, Rene Versteeg, who I was supposed to call next week... I don't have any insights yet on the reasoning, but there may direct link on how ARA handled the DP account / TBL production process. Could also be something else... If this MD was responsible for the current TBL mess, things may move into a positive direction now...

#256 3 years ago

2w2qyhv (resized).png

#257 3 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

There is some news: apparently ARA just fired their MD, Rene Versteeg, who I was supposed to call next week... I don't have any insights yet on the reasoning, but there may direct link on how ARA handled the DP account / TBL production process. Could also be something else... If this MD was responsible for the current TBL mess, things may move into a positive direction now...

It is good to get some news. MD = Managing Director? Thanks Jonathan.

#258 3 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

It is good to get some news. MD = Managing Director? Thanks Jonathan.

MD = Managing Director

#259 3 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

There is some news: apparently ARA just fired their MD, Rene Versteeg, who I was supposed to call next week... I don't have any insights yet on the reasoning, but there may direct link on how ARA handled the DP account / TBL production process. Could also be something else... If this MD was responsible for the current TBL mess, things may move into a positive direction now...

You beat me to it
The above is correct. The manager called Rene was fired on the spot and this was yesterday publically announced in the canteen in front of all the employees by 2 commissioners from ARA holding
Firing on the spot is very unusual in NL and only done in cases like theft, sexual misabuse or gross mismanagement. I suspect the latter is the case.
This opens possibilities for sure and deserves a White Russian to celebrate this. Let's all take a stand now in wait what kind of news this brings next week or the week after

#260 3 years ago
Quoted from steigerpijp:

Hey John, its pretty safe to say that all DP members are in this pro-bono as far as I know.

This is highly unlikely.

#261 3 years ago

another part of the puzzle.

Employees of ARA didn't get a bonus over 2016. Apparently first time ever.

This due to bad financial results.

The MD was just trying to do a cash-grab with DP with his price increase. He got now the door slammed in his face

Fired in the spot like you clean out your desk now and leave the premises escorted

#262 3 years ago

I worked for an infamous .com in the late 90s early 00s. Back then investor money was growing on trees and such was the attitude of mangment or whatever you want to call it. A $750K sales meeting in the Bahamas, sure why not. A $100K rafting trip on the Colorado was approved. Not a week would go by without a new "vice president" being hired.
We, the engineers, support and sales staff were wondering if "they" new what they were doing. Of course nobody would listen to us as we clearly didn't understand anything about the complicated world of marketing and management. The name of the parent company was CMGI which we joked stands for Cash Money Gets Incinerated. In teleconference meetings with the CEO we would hear that we need to "synergize synergistic synergies", "be proactive", "target vertical markets" and about "paradigm shifts". Long story short, we burned through investor's money, got sued by pissed customers and went belly up. The investor's were out of money and the customers had a largely unusable product. They soon found out that suing a bankrupt company is a waste of time and money.
Moral of the story, don't throw good money after bad money and don't waste your money suing anybody. It only makes the lawyers rich.

-1
#263 3 years ago
Quoted from NinJaBooT:

This is highly unlikely.

It is, my mistake, apologise for that . pro Bono is not the term I should have used, probably more in the lines of, no cure, no pay .

#264 3 years ago

The optimism here is a lot like the stock market dead cat bounce.

#265 3 years ago
Quoted from steigerpijp:

It is, my mistake, apologise for that . pro Bono is not the term I should have used, probably more in the lines of, no cure, no pay

So they worked for free for 4 years?

#266 3 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

another part of the puzzle.
Employees of ARA didn't get a bonus over 2016. Apparently first time ever.
This due to bad financial results.
The MD was just trying to do a cash-grab with DP with his price increase. He got now the door slammed in his face
Fired in the spot like you clean out your desk now and leave the premises escorted

This is potentially good news. IMO at least enough for people to pause a bit until we hear more developments and those sound like they may come soon.

#267 3 years ago

Rensh, are you saying that the guy (MD) at ARA that DP was having issues with has just been fired? That is what I assume but wanted to get clarification.

14
#268 3 years ago
Quoted from PinBalt:

Rensh, are you saying that the guy (MD) at ARA that DP was having issues with has just been fired? That is what I assume but wanted to get clarification.

No, he's saying some guy at ARA got fired and everyone here - like men dying of thirst in the desert - are creating their own mirages of a lake of redemption. Hope springs eternal.

#269 3 years ago
Quoted from PinBalt:

Rensh, are you saying that the guy (MD) at ARA that DP was having issues with has just been fired? That is what I assume but wanted to get clarification.

Correct

Let crazylevi just be crazylevi. This is good news, period.

Are we there ? For sure not but a big hurdle is out of the way

-1
#270 3 years ago
Quoted from NinJaBooT:

So they worked for free for 4 years?

Yep, that's right .

I dont however recomend doing this if you dont have anything else to support your day to day life, like another business, or a job.

#271 3 years ago
Quoted from steigerpijp:

Yep, that's right

I find this very hard to believe. Where is all the money then?

11
#272 3 years ago
Quoted from NinJaBooT:

I find this very hard to believe. Where is all the money then?

Morton (resized).jpg

#273 3 years ago

I think I should correct Steigerpijp a little

I know team members like him and JP and Jules are having a day job and did this for the love of pinball and will very likely be rewarded when this is all over. So no salary, more like a bonus at the end.

For Jaap, Barry and for sure programmer koen this is more or less their day job and need to take out a salary to pay for food-rent-etc. And they don't have a villa so no worries

I think at least P3 has a similar construction listening to a podcast from special K. This helps startup to get from the ground

-1
#274 3 years ago

(to follow)

#275 3 years ago
Quoted from NinJaBooT:

I find this very hard to believe. Where is all the money then?

No one has made a statement on the financial condition of the company as yet. And no one has disputed that a bill is owed to ARA, only the amount is in dispute.

#276 3 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

No one has made a statement on the financial condition of the company as yet. And no one has disputed that a bill is owed to ARA, only the amount is in dispute.

Although, aren't the DP guys still arguing that ARA broke their contract, by demanding more money?

20
#277 3 years ago
Quoted from Russell:

Although, aren't the DP guys still arguing that ARA broke their contract, by demanding more money?

I posted this in the Pre-order club thread, but I'll post it here too:

I just had a nice chat with Barry....and as bonkers as I've been lately, I have to say - I'm feeling pretty positive. With the firing of Rene from ARA...it truly seems like things have the possibility of moving forward. I've heard about Rene from a few different people - and none of it was positive. So, I'm starting to now believe the Dutch extortion story and that Rene was the villain...after all, Rene was just fired! Barry said he didn't mind me posting this, but communication with ARA is happening again and they're meeting with them next week with high hopes to get things back on track.
This information is enough for me to back off from my anger over the situation...new shit has come to light, and I want to see how it plays out.
My apologies to those I have raged on in these heated and emotional times...and if all goes well, I will repeatedly and humbly apologize to DP. Sometimes it's really tough to balance hobbyist friendships when there are customer/seller relationships involved.
So....anyway....here's to the next chapter and hopefully happy ending to this saga.

#278 3 years ago

Never thought I would see the day: a post from Rarehero without f*ck in it

Great man, welcome back

And keep now your dudeness when the next bump in the road occurs

Cheers man. Take a White Russian from me

#279 3 years ago

Thanks for the uplifting post Rarehero! Light at the end of the tunnel. Ok, let's all take a deep breath, cross our fingers, pray to the pinball gods and hope this all works out.
I agree that bringing lawyers in will likely result in enrichment of the lawyers and everyone else screwed.

-1
#280 3 years ago

I'm VERY happy this good news broke. Looking forward to playing against you all online when this last chapter closes.

14
#281 3 years ago

I really wish all my fellow pin heads luck with this but I cannot sit back because someone was fired from ARA. They still lied, its business, and people who lie in business should never get away with it. Its other peoples money not there own

#282 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I posted this in the Pre-order club thread, but I'll post it here too:
I just had a nice chat with Barry....and as bonkers as I've been lately, I have to say - I'm feeling pretty positive. With the firing of Rene from ARA...it truly seems like things have the possibility of moving forward. I've heard about Rene from a few different people - and none of it was positive. So, I'm starting to now believe the Dutch extortion story and that Rene was the villain...after all, Rene was just fired! Barry said he didn't mind me posting this, but communication with ARA is happening again and they're meeting with them next week with high hopes to get things back on track.
This information is enough for me to back off from my anger over the situation...new shit has come to light, and I want to see how it plays out.
My apologies to those I have raged on in these heated and emotional times...and if all goes well, I will repeatedly and humbly apologize to DP. Sometimes it's really tough to balance hobbyist friendships when there are customer/seller relationships involved.
So....anyway....here's to the next chapter and hopefully happy ending to this saga.

TBL (resized).png

Truly great to see some positive news about all this, I truly hope things start "rolling" with the TBL and everyone with money in comes out of all this with their games in hand. DP along with AP will hopefully make 2017 the positive year pinball deserves after 2016.

#283 3 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

I really wish all my fellow pin heads luck with this but I cannot sit back because someone was fired from ARA. They still lied, its business, and people who lie in business should never get away with it. Its other peoples money not there own

That being said - now it's looking like ARA's version of the story wasn't true...and if that's the case and this Rene guy was extorting them...then Dutch's lie was indeed to protect the project. While I completely understand people still being cynical (hey, I still am!) ...the firing of Rene seems to validate Dutch's story and reasons...I think it makes sense to see how the discussions with the new ARA bosses go. It's pure dumb luck for all of us that this happened....but it's something and the potential for progress is there.

#284 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

That being said - now it's looking like ARA's version of the story wasn't true...and if that's the case and this Rene guy was extorting them...then Dutch's lie was indeed to protect the project. While I completely understand people still being cynical (hey, I still am!) ...the firing of Rene seems to validate Dutch's story and reasons...I think it makes sense to see how the discussions with the new ARA bosses go. It's pure dumb luck for all of us that this happened....but it's something and the potential for progress is there.

Just seems weird that DP would have to cook up this BoP 3 project then. Lying about some "board issue" to protect ARA so the project doesn't go belly-up seems a little strange as well.

Then again, you could look at this as... why did the DM get fired? We still don't know that. Maybe he got fired for agreeing to talk to Jonathan about the project. Let's hope it's not that, and it's along the lines of what people are saying.

#285 3 years ago

Yea that's just too many ifs for me. Lol. I just go by facts not what each individual wants the facts to be.

#286 3 years ago
Quoted from chadderack:

Just seems weird that DP would have to cook up this BoP 3 project then. Lying about some "board issue" to protect ARA so the project doesn't go belly-up seems a little strange as well.

Not saying its right but sometimes you have to go to bat and save the ass of the one in the wrong and cover for them to ensure the entire situation doesn't fall into limbo, as long as everyone involved has something to loose then everyone will usually try and keep it together, the second one person has nothing to gain or loose that person is usually the one that thinks f**k it and lets everything unravel.

Hopefully that is what DP where doing trying to keep relations with ARA at the time together by going to bat for them?

#287 3 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Yea that's just too many ifs for me. Lol. I just go by facts not what each individual wants the facts to be.

What is your plan going forward? Earlier this week you were trying to collect details and such as you were also going to get to the bottom of things one way or the other? Are you continuing that or wait and see mode?

#289 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

That being said - now it's looking like ARA's version of the story wasn't true...and if that's the case and this Rene guy was extorting them...then Dutch's lie was indeed to protect the project. While I completely understand people still being cynical (hey, I still am!) ...the firing of Rene seems to validate Dutch's story and reasons...I think it makes sense to see how the discussions with the new ARA bosses go. It's pure dumb luck for all of us that this happened....but it's something and the potential for progress is there.

Yeah, but DP basically said they're selling BOPs at $12k a piece to fund this...right? If so, then I see no path forward. If not, then what is the path? Renegotiate with ARA now that a new "dude" will be there?

#290 3 years ago

Jaap said at TPF that one of the achievers was attending the planned party in Nov and wanted to pick up his TBL. Ara (Renee) said no way (arguements began between DP and ARA (Renee) at that point) and this board malfunction issue was the stall tactic taken. He owned up to that and personally stated regret to me for that afterwards. I thanked him for that and it was sincere. Just wanted to put that out there if that was unknown. I tried recording the talk but my phone had issues.

#291 3 years ago

All of these train wrecks have one thing in common. You just can't make this stuff up!!

Fingers crossed some more level headed folks can work together and get the dude rolling again.

#292 3 years ago

Train wrecks always have one big thing in common.

No F ing $$ left.

Hard to believe broke dick liars just "living the dream" on other people's money

Hope it works out somehow

#293 3 years ago

Was this a hint about Pin # 3's theme?

#294 3 years ago

What no money? So I still have a chance to piss on a rug??

#295 3 years ago
Quoted from chadderack:

Just seems weird that DP would have to cook up this BoP 3 project then. Lying about some "board issue" to protect ARA so the project doesn't go belly-up seems a little strange as well.
Then again, you could look at this as... why did the DM get fired? We still don't know that. Maybe he got fired for agreeing to talk to Jonathan about the project. Let's hope it's not that, and it's along the lines of what people are saying.

I do have that effect on people But sorry, nobody agreed to anything. I was told he was out of his office this week and asked to call back next week. But how about we test your theory? Where do you work?

#296 3 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

Yeah, but DP basically said they're selling BOPs at $12k a piece to fund this...right? If so, then I see no path forward. If not, then what is the path? Renegotiate with ARA now that a new "dude" will be there?

Well - now it's debatable whether BOP was to "fund this" if ARA's non-payment story wasn't true. Since ARA has the BOP proto, that means they were working with ARA on the BOP project around summer of last year, or earlier. To me, that kind of scraps the notion that this was a last minute desperation money attempt. The fact that Cointaker is taking deposits and none of that money goes to DP until the games are done also shows that the money-grab logic doesn't seem to make sense.

#297 3 years ago
Quoted from PinBalt:

Jaap said at TPF that one of the achievers was attending the planned party in Nov and wanted to pick up his TBL. Ara (Renee) said no way (arguements began between DP and ARA (Renee) at that point) and this board malfunction issue was the stall tactic taken. He owned up to that and personally stated regret to me for that afterwards. I thanked him for that and it was sincere. Just wanted to put that out there if that was unknown. I tried recording the talk but my phone had issues.

Barry explained this exact thing to me this morning & apologized as well.

#298 3 years ago

This is gonna be the biggest wrestling match for those 50 pins held hostage ever

What a cluster F

#299 3 years ago

Guys - I am cautiously optimistic. The story is weird with the BOP25 project thrown in, but some of it checks out with Rene being canned ahead of the meeting with Jonathan. Might not have hurt that Jonathan runs a magazine that circulates in the NL so Rene was gonna essentially gonna have to talk to a reporter. Ok, a pinball reporter, but still.

Good news is that there seems to be a restart at ARA, so we should really see some new shit come to light in a week or two.

If we could just get someone to lose a toe or get kidnapped, it could really get interesting ...

14
#300 3 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

Might not have hurt that Jonathan runs a magazine that circulates in the NL so Rene was gonna essentially gonna have to talk to a reporter. Ok, a pinball reporter, but still.

Most of my magazines are sold to people outside The Netherlands. The English speaking countries mostly as the magazine is in English. I doubt whether 1 phonecall of me would cause an immediate board meeting and firing on the spot. But maybe I am that important

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