(Topic ID: 184739)

Class Action Lawsuit for TBL? The Big Lebowski / Dutch Pinball

By Davidus56

4 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 622 posts
  • 176 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by lexi
  • Topic is favorited by 32 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

9586A995-FBC6-49E9-A9FF-6908C8C90B6D (resized).jpeg
15511963056068435672294804255562 (resized).jpg
61B+ynrx3gL._SY400_ (resized).jpg
MV5BOTNiNzUyNWMtM2E5Yi00MWJiLTg1M2QtNTQ5MWNkMTM3NTBmXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMjExMjk0ODk@._V1_UY268_CR4,0,182,268_AL_ (resized).jpg
rd (resized).jpg
Capture (resized).JPG
pins-logo (resized).png
maxresdefault (resized).jpg
pasted_image (resized).png
9bbea19e17cdab09840b169ad98aaf76 (resized).jpg
IMG_1931 (resized).PNG
IMG_4764 (resized).PNG
Screen Shot 2017-04-07 at 11.01.32 PM (resized).png
Screen Shot 2017-04-07 at 10.12.12 PM (resized).png
IMG_3405[1] (resized).JPG
WWhite (resized).jpg

Topic index (key posts)

3 key posts have been marked in this topic (Show topic index)

There are 622 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 13.
#151 4 years ago
Quoted from rvdv:

It's clear now that DP was put in a rough position by not putting a cap on spending in their contract with ARA.

That's not necessarily clear. ARA is a contract manufacturer...if anyone knows how to budget for parts and builds, its them. It's entirely more realistic that Dutch spent our money unwisely in other ways.

#152 4 years ago

This reminds me of old Wimpy from Popeye... "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today"

Hoping for the sales of your next product to pay off the initial investors is very similar if not the same as a pyramid scheme. I really hope this works out for everyone, as I'd love to see these machines at least somewhere out in the wild...

#153 4 years ago
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

How about entertaining an honest mediation with the 3 sides represented?

Bingo. Only way this ends well for all parties.

#154 4 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

I always thought it stood for Don't Preorder

POST OF THE YEAR!

#155 4 years ago
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

How about entertaining an honest mediation with the 3 sides represented?

Do we know that ARA are open to mediation? Imagine they probably are if they have 40+ games just sitting in their warehouse. DP certainly should be. Maybe Jonathan can work some magic there.

#156 4 years ago

Should probably ask AP what their take is on all this. They are a CM and may have some insight....

#157 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Pre-order NOW? HELLS TO THE NO!!! But in 2014, there were no super obvious red flags concerning DP. Even into 2016 - games were shipping!!! The only time the alarms started going off were very recently.

Erm, the whole thing with Phil was a HUGE red flag. DP insisted (and somewhat forced) a partner, who was sick, to stay with their project against his will and judgment so they could use his account to collect preorders.

Any time you send a new, unproven company nearly $10K, alarm bells automatically go off. You were just too deaf to hear them.

#158 4 years ago

anyone looked into the KVK info on DP ?

Anyone contacted ARA about this mess ?

How much does it take to complete all preorders and were all these paid in full ?

#159 4 years ago

to start this message off i have zero stake in TBL or anything related whatsoever with DP, but i have to say as a fellow Dutch Pinhead i found this situation really disturbing.. i love the big lebowski game and the pinheads behind it.. barry,koen and jaap,jules,and even Jp De win which made the PF and vid graphics.. they are all great genuine guys and we all know eachother in the community.. i even attended their very first TBL party in holland couple years back..

however i have to say that i cannot believe and understand why they had to LIE about the reason they couldnt ship TBL games anymore.. they stated at first that it was due to Board problems (which we all know its not true by now).. makes me wonder why they had to flat out lie to the buyers in the first place? buying some time?? sorry DP.. that is very wrong.. u can write another TBL News shitletter where they mention that they are rolling good with BoP3.0... what about some sincere apologies about the stonecold LIE they carried out! cmon DP guys.. redeem yourself as mentioned. and state whatever is needed.. can the ARA bridge be fixed or not? if so what is needed.. etc etc etc.. be transparant as crystal clear water in this.. and fix the problem..and fast.. before it is too late! and we dont want that.

#160 4 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

For about a year I was able to think about the initials "DP" without chuckling and thinking about Double Penetration.
That time is over.

That's what I thought it ment this whole time. DP has another meaning? Now i'm confused about what the hell this thread is even about.

#161 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Erm, the whole thing with Phil was a HUGE red flag. DP insisted (and somewhat forced) a partner, who was sick, to stay with their project against his will and judgment so they could use his account to collect preorders.
Any time you send a new, unproven company nearly $10K, alarm bells automatically go off. You were just too deaf to hear them.

Yes - in retrospect, but history is always easier to predict by looking in a rearview mirror.

In addition to the points already made by Rarehero regarding the vastly different pre-order environment that existed within the hobby three years ago, I'd also recommend revisiting Coast2Coast podcast episodes # 126 and 127 for a reminder regarding what some reputable folks were thinking regarding TBL at the time of "Philgate" in early 2015.

#162 4 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

Yes - in retrospect, but history is always easier to predict by looking in a rearview mirror.
In addition to the points already made by rarehero regarding the vastly different pre-order environment that existed within the hobby three years ago, I'd also recommend revisiting Coast2Coast podcast episodes # 126 and 127 for a reminder regarding what some reputable folks were thinking regarding TBL at the time of "Philgate" in early 2015.

I don't think things were "vastly" different back then. BBB was at the precipice of failing multiple times and took huge effort from a lot of people to get done, not to mention Gene losing money on every game. Kingpin was proposed then abandoned. WOZ almost failed, requiring additional influx of cash to keep JJP afloat. The wheels were already starting to come off Predator (remember the expo where it sat broken all weekend?)

I bought into to TBL at 4500, against my better judgment, but had decided the game was worth the risk. After Phil, the risk was far too great as DP had shown deception at that point ("everything's great!" well not really). I got booted out and did not return. Anyone who stayed in at that point was taking a huge risk, whether they realized it or not. Again: totally unproven company, no experience manufacturing, foreign country/court system, licensing issues, etc. Just because they went unheeded does not mean the warnings weren't there.

#163 4 years ago

so knowing a little dutch law, if i had got that email I'd get legal advice - not responding to that specifically may imply you are ok with the situation and reduce your legal options in the future - but seriously anyone who thinks they will get their money back or a machine is frankly on crack cocaine.

#164 4 years ago

Man i hope this situation stops sucking real fast...i am/was sort of proud there is a Dutch group building pinballs.
Now they go JPop on everybody.
Not cool..

#165 4 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

but seriously anyone who thinks they will get their money back or a machine is frankly on crack cocaine.

Thanks for the pep talk....

#166 4 years ago

Wow, so sit back, and hope DP make enough BOP SLE to enable them to refund or get TBL made. You just couldn't make this stuff up.

#167 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

Man i hope this situation stops sucking real fast...i am/was sort of proud there is a Dutch group building pinballs.
Now they go JPop on everybody.
Not cool..

There is absolutely no shame in being proud your country was/is producing pinball. I think it's cool pinball production is international again. The issue is allowing that pride cloud better judgment. There was a time when the board issue came to light that a lot of people not emotionally invested raised concerns only to be shouted down (eerily similar to jpop and skitb threads) by those exhibiting that pride. The writing on the wall is what it is no matter how inconvenient or uncomfortable that it might be. The head in the sand technique DP has and continues to employ only sinks the ship faster.

#168 4 years ago

Bottom line is Barry and Jaap F ed up. Lied, misrepresented, etc....

How is the code not done after 4 years of doing what?

If i learned anything with Jpop, its time to roll in there like a bull in a china closet and quit worrying about hurting somebodies feelings before its too late if its not already.

Why not try and get Heighway to make the damn things versus some "contract manufacturer" that doesn't know shit about pinball?

#169 4 years ago

Can someone explain to me why we should trust everything that ARA has said so far in the matter? So someone called about the boards and they said there was never an issue with the boards...it was because DP never paid ARA. DP said that they were suppose to pay for parts for Pinbot so that they could build and possibly announce the game for sale while building TBL pins at the same time. DP stated that the parts were never ordered and again ARA stated they were never ordered because they were not paid. Was ARA not paid after after the 2nd contract negotiation was approved on which did include a certain amount of Pinbots to be built and shipped along with TBL's or did ARA break the contract again asking for more money and so they use the excuse that they never ordered parts because DP would not pay the 1000 plus extra per game they were asking for. F*&^, honestly who the hell knows coming from either source.

Definitely need a third person to state the facts... from there, it makes sense if a lawsuit is necessary and/or if mediation can resolve their differences so that they can issue refunds and build the remainder of TBL's.

14
#170 4 years ago
Quoted from rlslick:

Can someone explain to me why we should trust everything that ARA has said so far in the matter? So someone called about the boards and they said there was never an issue with the boards...it was because DP never paid ARA. DP said that they were suppose to pay for parts for Pinbot so that they could build and possibly announce the game for sale while building TBL pins at the same time.

If you are reading between the lines, ARA is a legitimate going concern business that finally had enough of DP's BS and non payment.

Why on earth would ARA foot the bill for continuing the Ponzi scheme? They clearly got what was going on and simply kept the pins for collateral.

DP will never pay them and those TBL's will get auctioned off to pay debts.

The TPF Bop scheme is a last ditch effort to keep the Ponzi going.

How much have Jaap and Barry made in salary over the past 4 years?

How do you survive producing 50 pins in 4 years on that profit margin? JBOP 2.0

#171 4 years ago
Quoted from rlslick:

Can someone explain to me why we should trust everything that ARA has said so far in the matter?

Because they're a successful business that doesn't really need pinball. What's in it for them to lie? Dutch Pinball is 2 or 3 dudes winging it. Dutch was caught in a lie.

#172 4 years ago

What I don't get is why back a year or so ago, during the big TBL meltdown, when people were able to get their deposits back, I saw people here wanting to throw money back at Dutch pinball when things were imploding. Why anyone would have continued supporting that project is beyond me.

#173 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

If you are reading between the lines, ARA is a legitimate going concern business that finally had enough of DP's BS and non payment.
Why on earth would ARA foot the bill for continuing the Ponzi scheme? They clearly got what was going on and simply kept the pins for collateral.
DP will never pay them and those TBL's will get auctioned off to pay debts.
The TPF Bop scheme is a last ditch effort to keep the Ponzi going.
How much have Jaap and Barry made in salary over the past 4 years?
How do you survive producing 50 pins in 4 years on that profit margin? JBOP 2.0

Ok, I'm not trying to make excuses for DP...just trying to get some more visibility into what I have no facts too.

Successful companies, corporate sweethearts as some say have been known to do wrong successful or not. Not saying ARA is in the wrong...but without the actual facts to support what the other claims...all we have is to speculate and guess who's at fault by reading in between the lines.

#174 4 years ago
Quoted from TVP:

What I don't get is why back a year or so ago, during the big TBL meltdown, when people were able to get their deposits back, I saw people here wanting to throw money back at Dutch pinball when things were imploding. Why anyone would have continued supporting that project is beyond me.

We believe what we want to believe. I F ed up with Jpop because i believed in him and let that slimy bastard go on for way too long.

I actually sent in an AIW deposit just to support the prick amidst bright red flashing warning signs. I lost $4500 total and then watched MG F ing play out like it did.

Despite the Jpop blinders i was so thankful just to get my $$ back after 2015 Expo and Phil gate.

We all want to believe the best intentions of these M fer's. Not anymore. Trust but verify

#175 4 years ago
Quoted from rlslick:

all we have is to speculate and guess who's at fault by reading in between the lines.

I understand that, and based on my long history and experience of dealing with people on the business legal front you can color me jaded

DP has zero chance hiring any lawyers to pursue anything against ARA, they F ed up with Universal initially and now ARA. It costs a SHIT TON of $$$ to go after the collateral and IF they thought they were in the right they would have already had it rectified!!

Think about what they thought they could get away with regarding the licensing. How F ing stupid was that? It took Roger Sharpe to fix it.

Whether you hate Phil or not he tried to shine the light on these guys.

#176 4 years ago

What a mess. No one is going to be able to start up a pin company anymore based on the last couple of companies that have screwed people over. (DP and Jpop) I played the pin at the Ohio Show last year. It was cool. Sigh....

#177 4 years ago
Quoted from alexanr1:

What a mess. No one is going to be able to start up a pin company anymore based on the last couple of companies that have screwed people over. (DP and Jpop) I played the pin at the Ohio Show last year. It was cool. Sigh....

American Pinball's doing it. Heighway just did it. Looking forward to AP shipping their game and have good confidence that they'll find the way to do it.

#178 4 years ago

Is there any other Dutch Pinball entity either in the US or abroad? Did the US entity fold when Phil left? Anyone ?

#179 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

I don't think things were "vastly" different back then. BBB was at the precipice of failing multiple times and took huge effort from a lot of people to get done, not to mention Gene losing money on every game. Kingpin was proposed then abandoned. WOZ almost failed, requiring additional influx of cash to keep JJP afloat. The wheels were already starting to come off Predator (remember the expo where it sat broken all weekend?)
I

I disagree. The JPop, Skit-B, and (potentially) now DP debacles are the BIG reasons that the pre-order environment today is nowhere near what it was in 2014. The BBB and King Pin remake efforts are comparatively ancient history and as such, many hobbyists buying NIB games in 2014 weren't even aware of them.

-8
#180 4 years ago
Quoted from Manimal:

TBL might be the current day BBB...

1. Low production numbers

2. Both games suck

#181 4 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

How much longer do you think is appropriate to wait?
Another week?
Another month?
Another six months?
Another year?
Another two years?
Another three years?
Five additional years from today?
Or?

Let me get back to you on that soon.

-2
#182 4 years ago
Quoted from chadderack:

American Pinball's doing it.

As I understand it, they still owe the original coder $12k USD and a Magic Girl and have ignored any communication from him. So they aren't exactly squeaky clean either

Heighway just did it. Looking forward to AP shipping their game and have good confidence that they'll find the way to do it.

They have shipped less than 100 FTHs and not even 20 Aliens. He's been very clever and making sure that the very limited amount of Aliens shipped so far have gone to very vocal Pinside members. I'm still waiting for them to ramp up to the '100s per month' that Andy was always harping on about.

This part concerns me though:

"Producing TBL with another contract manufacturer than ARA might damage our position in a lawsuit."

Why would it damage their position? Smells like 'faulty boards' again.

#183 4 years ago
Quoted from Sonny_Jim:

As I understand it, they still owe the original coder $12k USD and a Magic Girl and have ignored any communication from him. So they aren't exactly squeaky clean either

Eh, no. That's Zidware and Zidware alone that owe the original coder of Magic Girl as well as the artist and several vendors. American Pinball is NOT Zidware.

They have shipped less than 100 FTHs and not even 20 Aliens. He's been very clever and making sure that the very limited amount of Aliens shipped so far have gone to very vocal Pinside members. I'm still waiting for them to ramp up to the '100s per month' that Andy was always harping on about.

We'll see. I'm leaning toward "they'll get it done."

18
#184 4 years ago

Since my name has been mentioned several times to mediate I called ARA this morning to see whether they would be open to that. After I had to call again after being disconnected the first time I was told that The person I would need to talk to is not in his office this week and was asked to call again next week...

As far as taking any legal action against DP goes: earlier I expressed to hold that off as it most likely will ruin the chances of getting a game, especially for those whose game still has to be build. Undertaking legal action will cost more than you'll gain (so why spend money if you know you won't get it back) while waiting is free and you may still get a game. Plus that if DP needs to pay a lawyer to defend themselves that money will be coming from the TBL fund, so not helping either. Also keep in mind that DP can't just wave a magic wand and poof there are all the TBLs. So I don't see any logical reason to sue DP and undermine the whole project.

To put thing in a different perspective: As far as I know ARA has now breached their contract with DP 3 times and appears to be treating DP like a bully handles a kid for his lunchmoney. Now the kid is standing up for himself. To stay in that analogy: what makes more sense? Sue the kid, or the bully?

#185 4 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

As far as I know

That's one of the major issues here, they've been caught out not telling the truth in the past, so why should we believe anything they say?

The idea is that you as a trusted middle party can actually see the proof of their claims, not to take their word on it.

#186 4 years ago

Ah, unigroove as the saviour who comes to the rescue. Good luck!
I would have contacted former ministre of finance Gerrit Zalm. He is rich, is ceo from abn amro bank, loves pinball but on second thought since being in politics is known to be lying. Unfit for the job....

#187 4 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

As far as I know ARA has now breached their contract with DP 3 times

You're basing that assertion on what? What DP has stated?

19
#188 4 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

To put thing in a different perspective: As far as I know ARA has now breached their contract with DP 3 times and appears to be treating DP like a bully handles a kid for his lunchmoney. Now the kid is standing up for himself. To stay in that analogy: what makes more sense? Sue the kid, or the bully?

Quoted from Skins:

You're basing that assertion on what? What DP has stated?

Apparently. To follow through, imagine being involved in a dispute where the independent, third-party mediator entered the negotiations with that starting position?

ARA is a CM and not in the pinball industry so they would rightfully be a bit suspicious of the neutrality of any mediator from the pinball industry. If I were ARA, the above statement by the 'independent' mediator would most certainly preclude that person from consideration for the role. Perhaps people would be better served by having someone who is actually experienced in mediation. Are there organizations like the American Arbitration Association in the Netherlands?

#189 4 years ago
Quoted from cudabee:

I would have contacted former ministre of finance Gerrit Zalm. He is rich, is ceo from abn amro bank, loves pinball but on second thought since being in politics is known to be lying. Unfit for the job....

If he were willing, and both parties would agree, he'd be a much better candidate to act as mediator. Simply because of his gravitas. Certainly ARA or their holding company would take it far more seriously.

If one or both parties don't respect the mediator, it's completely futile.

I know that some (Dutch) people here have met or had contact with him in the past. It might be worth trying to bring this possibility to his attention.

#190 4 years ago

Jonathan, I see you as a spokesman of all achivers, who want their prepaid TBLs, especially the ready for shipment ones.

You have many readers in the states, please be thankful for that and help this fellas out with your position as a well known editor and your native language Dutch. Shure, this is not an easy task, maybe someone link your name in the future with the (not yet) DP fiasco. But what important is, you made a try and this is what count. You can´t solve it alone, all involved sides must come together and find a suitable solution.

Don´t know Mr. Gerrit Zalm, is he involved in the pinball world, exp. the whole TBL story?

groet
Roland

#191 4 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

I called ARA this morning to see whether they would be open to that.

Thanks for getting involved and helping with this. Even getting the correct information and status would be a great help.

#192 4 years ago

Only one person called ARA ??

If it was me I would suggest everyone calls them who paid in full
And is owed therefor.
Don't take it laying down, show them it's serious by everyone calling them

Or at least send them a email
They all speak and read English in the Netherlands

image (resized).png

#193 4 years ago

Can someone tell me when DP started selling TBL pre-order spots ? Was it in 2014 or 2015 ?

#194 4 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

Since my name has been mentioned several times to mediate I called ARA this morning to see whether they would be open to that. After I had to call again after being disconnected the first time I was told that The person I would need to talk to is not in his office this week and was asked to call again next week...
As far as taking any legal action against DP goes: earlier I expressed to hold that off as it most likely will ruin the chances of getting a game, especially for those whose game still has to be build. Undertaking legal action will cost more than you'll gain (so why spend money if you know you won't get it back) while waiting is free and you may still get a game. Plus that if DP needs to pay a lawyer to defend themselves that money will be coming from the TBL fund, so not helping either. Also keep in mind that DP can't just wave a magic wand and poof there are all the TBLs. So I don't see any logical reason to sue DP and undermine the whole project.
To put thing in a different perspective: As far as I know ARA has now breached their contract with DP 3 times and appears to be treating DP like a bully handles a kid for his lunchmoney. Now the kid is standing up for himself. To stay in that analogy: what makes more sense? Sue the kid, or the bully?

Hey gang - in my eagerness to get movement here, I may have jumped the gun and 'volunteered' Jonathan before he was ready to accept the role, my apologies to Jonathan.

I do appreciate him contacting ARA to see if he can find out additional info. Even if that is the only thing he does, it will be super helpful.

#195 4 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

To put thing in a different perspective: As far as I know ARA has now breached their contract with DP 3 times and appears to be treating DP like a bully handles a kid for his lunchmoney. Now the kid is standing up for himself. To stay in that analogy: what makes more sense? Sue the kid, or the bully?

I'm pretty sure at this point this group would sue the kid's grandmother and the bully's sick little brother to get their games.

#196 4 years ago
Quoted from bounoun:

Can someone tell me when DP started selling TBL pre-order spots ? Was it in 2014 or 2015 ?

12/27/2013

#197 4 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I'm pretty sure at this point this group would sue the kid's grandmother and the bully's sick little brother to get their games.

As a member of this group I'd like to focus on getting a better understanding of what the reality with TBL is (DP's and ARA's actual difference) before rushing to sue anyone.

#198 4 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

Apparently. To follow through, imagine being involved in a dispute where the independent, third-party mediator entered the negotiations with that starting position?

I was trying to be a little less head on; but yes, that was the reasoning behind my question. I agree with your assertion, obviously.

#199 4 years ago
Quoted from Sonny_Jim:

He's been very clever and making sure that the very limited amount of Aliens shipped so far have gone to very vocal Pinside members.

You give Andrew way too much credit here. He didn't 'pick me' to buy Alien. I contacted him and Melissa (Cointaker) well ahead of TPF to set up a deal. And before I purchased, I would hardly call myself 'vocal' on Pinside. I'm only vocal now because I'm so damn excited to have the game!

...sorry for the derail, back to DP fiasco.

15
#200 4 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

As a member of this group I'd like to focus on getting a better understanding of what the reality with TBL is (DP's and ARA's actual difference) before rushing to sue anyone.

Buyers only have a purchase agreement with DP. The buck starts and ends with DP. If buyers sue DP, then DP would in turn sue ARA if they felt ARA was the root cause. This notion of who to go after is misguided. This is on DP and DP alone regardless of the root cause. Any talk of suing ara is off base and misguided. The only reason for ARA contact is to try and ferret out the truth because once again, when presented the option between truthfulness and deceit, DP chose the latter. This a DP problem regardless of who caused it. They don't get to tout the state of the art contract manufacturing facilities to help sell games in the beginning and now blame that same entity for the failure. People bought games from Dutch, not ARA. People don't give a shit how the sausage is made. Just get it made.

There are 622 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 13.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside