TBL might be the current day BBB.......

Calling Bally and/or Universal will do nothing for you except make them more reluctant to license another game to pinball. And that does not help those who have money invested..... ( I have some insight into Bally and they could care less)

Regardless of what everyone has been told, the one thing I have learned over the years is there is always "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say. Think about it, if this were just a money issue, you would have gotten a letter to such, and that letter would have "suggested" you put up the extra cash in order to get your game out of jail, or else have to wait for the legal proceedings to take their course. They know full well many folks would have jumped at that...they wouldn't be happy, but at least they would have their games. The fact they didn't do this is troubling.

No, this stinks of something else. There is a LOT more going on here than anyone is being led to believe. This is total speculation, but as some have already suggested, my bet is that DP owes ARA a LOT more cash than they will admit, which is why ARA is holding the games. DP is not suggesting each buyer pony up the extra grand because they know that is not going to be near enough. Add the fact DP is trying to do a cash-grab on the BOP, but has no prototype or parts....it pretty much sound like desperation. I don't know what legal remedies there are internationally, and I know you all have been discussing them, but my suggestion would be to act quicker than later. If the company folds, it will be another JPOP or worse.

I do feel for you guys that have money in this mess....pinball is supposed to be fun.

E-mails are arriving, a few managed to get past the legal snipers...

IMG_4507 (resized).PNG

If ara has the bop whitewood, it seems they had been working on this and planning it much prior to the tbl debacle. Bop deposit is what, $250? Not really a cash "grab" that helps at all.. It seems more like with the tbl in lawyer/litigation deadlock for an unknown (but potentially lengthy) time, what other option does dp have but to try and move forward with the plans they had for their next game?

They have to have some money left though or they couldn't be going anywhere with bop.

They are probably trying to find an investor. The $250 buys you a translite so you can't claim you got nothing for your money.....not a confidence builder in my books. Almost like they know they could default and don't want a bunch of lawsuits.

I too am an early achiever, paid in full, and i've been quiet about all this until now. Not anymore. I completely agree that full action is needed if anything about the situation is going to change. I've been burned a few times by con artists/ narcissists and each time I've a made a point to further study the behavior of this type of person. Based on my past experience I am not hopeful about the situation with DP- the money is very likely gone. I really hope i'm wrong about this.

thats crazy talk. Refunds are an option until they deliver the machine fully working!

Jaap's behavior is of particular concern. Unfortunately he shows many of the classic signs of narcissism and I think it's possible that the whole company has been built using his skills of deception. It's kind of hard to believe but narcissists are so deceptive that they even believe their own lies! (Yes, POTUS). I think this stuff is pretty damn interesting and I hope this input is of interest to some. Here's a little overview of key points:

1. Grandiosity- throw big parties, talk a big game, trash other companies, make unrealistic promises, etc.
2. Charisma- with enough charismatic talking there is no need for action (because other people are too stupid to catch onto you).
3. Lies- People are too stupid to notice.
4. Inability to take responsibility- If someone calls you out, simply change the subject. Or better yet, pretend that you didn't hear.
5. Victimhood- play the victim and you may be able to convince people that you are not the perpetrator.
6. Inability to apologize- You see, i'm the one who has been wronged. They should be apologizing.
7. Inability to change course- Everyone else is wrong so they should change. I'm never wrong so need to change anything.
8. Emotional manipulation- "Don't be so negative" "Get excited about the new game!" "We care about fun"

Even with my past experience I was unable to associate Jaap with this personality type until the TPF talk. It is far less scary to be in denial about the situation and to just give the perpetrator the benefit of the doubt. At some point though it becomes impossible to keep cutting slack.

Very insightful, dude.

Lot of information can be requested on Dutch Pinball or any company registered with KVK

I would suggest start making a list of all people involved with money tide up for when they go belly up
Any assets will be sold and pay creditors or people money owed

image (resized).png

This is interesting...but what are we looking at here? What is KVK? What's this list under Dutch Pinball B.V.? Thanks Robert!

Love the new avatar.

Translator please

Kamer van Koophandel is a bureau where Dutch companies are registered. The items under are information any one can pay to get
- company profile, financial information, etc

Very useful to find out how healthy
Of a company DP is and make a judgement call from that

Since DP is a BV , they have limited liability but pending how they formulated the BV personal liability
Comes in also and no matter what all Creditors must be paid.

Hope this helps you all a bit

I have been reading everything about what is going on with Dutch Pinball's The Big Lebowski, and like huugb I too have been quite just monitoring the situation. I am paid in full and my machine is #84 which I think is built and being held hostage. I really have no idea what to do as I am relatively new to the pinball world. These next couple of days/weeks are going to be interesting to see what comes about everything. Hopefully, Jonathan Joosten can find out what truly is going on.

Wanted to offer my two cents, though I'm not in the same boat as many here as I have my TBL.

We all acknowledge the inherent risk in crowdfunding a project, since we, the customers, bear a large part of the burden of financing the project often in its incipient stages, making that investment in good faith with the expectation that it will be returned in kind. We have seen this model work brilliantly, and we have seen it fail. I think a lot of us have a short memory, and forget how trying the delays with Wizard of Oz were when they hit issues with their supply chain. But, to their credit, Jack and his company had a vision and a commitment, and they ultimately delivered.

Like many of you, I kept my wager on the table with DP and TBL through some rocky times: the licensing issues, the Phil debacle. What kept me faithful wasn't just my absolute adoration for the theme, but I also truly believed that the guys at DP were committed to releasing a great game to those who believed in their ability, and I will say that I think that they have made a truly great game with TBL.

I know some people are getting irritated, and they are starting to find Barry and Jaap to be aloof, but I'd recommend you take a moment to consider how complicated the situation is. We are dealing with a game produced outside the USA for distribution in the USA. There are a lot of moving parts to this, and the situation is both logistically and legally complex. I doubt Barry and Jaap's counsel want them directly responding to inquiries without ensuring that the responses don't break any terms of their agreements that could further jeopardize their position.

As many of you read on here, my initial TBL delivery was a nightmare, with the delivery guys destroying the game; the damage was so extensive that the game was totaled and they had to rebuild a new one for me. This was before the ARA dispute, but I found both Cointaker and DP to be absolutely wonderful at making a very bad situation good again, and I got to witness first-hand how much these guys care about their customers.

I also see it with the quality of their BoP 2.0 kits, which I also own. The design and the BOM increased from pre-order to the final product, but they honored their commitment to my order and delivered a hell of a package.

Bottom line is that these guys are talented designers and programmers. They care about their product and their fans/customers. I don't for a minute believe this to be a "take the money and run" situation.

The last NSNL brought a lot of the issues into the light, and they did so honestly. It certainly sounds like ARA decided to change the terms of the deal after it had closed, and are holding the games hostage as a negotiating tactic. It sounds sketchy, if DP's account is fair and accurate. I don't know what the laws are in The Netherlands, but here, that's a breach of contract, and I am sure there would be grounds to force the manufacturer to release the games and parts, and then to allow both sides to negotiate new terms, or go their separate ways. Given that DP isn't distributing in the US, there's another party that can be leveraged here. It sounds like a mess.

In my mind, DP giving in and paying the extra $1000 or so per game (or passing that cost along to customers) totally undermines their position, and essentially sets a precedent that ARA can continue to hold their materials hostage and force a price hike any time they want.

In short, I believe in the DP guys. They've done right by me with my investments in both of their properties released to date. I think these guys truly want to find a solution, but I think they realize--and we all should realize--that disputes which require litigation can take years to resolve. But a resolution will be found that will find everyone honoring their commitments.

We've all waited a long time. Pulling your investment means also pulling your support in their fight with ARA. Ultimately, it could bring the project and the company down. I know it's hard to think about waiting more, but I'm going to assume that none of us who put down this kind of money actually needs the money to avoid losing the house and the car. It's money we wrote off on our personal budgets a long time ago. I'm hoping that with a little patience, everyone will have their TBLs someday soon. Because it is an awesome game.

Easy for you to say. You got yours.

We didn't join a Kickstarter. We bought a product. Give us the product or a refund. End of story. Their fuck ups are theirs alone, and we bear no responsibility to "believe in them" or whatever. We're in cold hard facts zone ...and Dutch isn't giving us the facts. They're feeding us more stall tactic BS.

How are those boards working out now, since the big'ol snafu they had with them?...Oh, that wasn't accurate? DP has as much credibility as KK and JPop now. They are not looking out for anyone outside of themselves... I've been on this ride before, but it never ends apparently.

zsciaeount to be honest how they treated you is the one of the reasons my mind wants to give them the benefit of the doubt. But they've done so many wrongs now in my view.

paying up the extra money doesn't undermine their position at all and in my view their company is finished unless they get this issue resolved quickly, who in their right mind is going to give them any money given this situation? in my view those with skin in this game should go all chuck noris and find away to get their money back.

Neil

Hey worst case just get them to send over ALL the parts screw the labor there's guys like me out there well get the old assembly plant going again and those last 80 machines can be lovingly made in the USA by guys like Me and Walter not these freking Nihilists lol!

fbee99ab436ab03fd4fd15c2efabb51e (resized).jpg

...Gene Cunningham & Ben Heck all I have to say!

Why would DP care if they set a precedent with ARA by paying the upcharge (if that is true anyway)? Why would they care what ARA does once the hostage games are sent out and parts are recovered? Get that upcharge (?) paid and move on to your better (as DP sees it) contract manufacturer. Where angels sing and rainbows shine! Jaap has already stated that their relationship is pretty much over and they have found a new contract manufacturer.

I know the "precedent" argument is DP's words and not yours. But, I don't fully understand the reasoning.

zsciaeount - This may sound crazy, but how they treated you was not remarkable or otherwise noteworthy. That was exactly how a pinball company should act when their product is destroyed by their contract delivery company and covered by shipping insurance.

What we are looking for is more of that kind of behavior. We are looking for some transparency into the current situation to see if we should remain patient. Most of us are willing to be patient if we are treated right, communicated with truthfully and more frequently.

I am not sure if they are suing ARA or not. And stop telling me that their 'attorney' wants them to keep quiet. That bogus timeline has lots of info in it - most beneficial to DP - that the 'attorney' would have warned them against as well. I wonder what their 'attorney' thought of the board story, lol? Jaap and Barry can talk all they want, whenever they want and they do.

I don't know who owns the parts. I don't know what sort of $ figure it would take to get the production line going, and frankly, let me be the judge as to whether or not I would like to kick in a little extra money to free my machine and whether thats a good idea or not. If the $1000 fee to get this going is actually a true story, lets see it in writing from ARA.

When this situation feels more like WOZ (LOTS of communication even while being harshly criticized by the pinball community, humility, sharing of actual plans, refunds for unhappy clients, Jack wisely bringing in investors to help) and less like Predator/Jpop, (deception, crazy business practices, moving to a second project before the first is completed, silence), patience will be in bigger supply. Patience is earned and they need to start earning it. They need another Roger Sharpe moment.

And by the way, every criticism by me and most everyone else thus far has to do with business practices and ethics. No one is doubting that Jaap and Barry love pinball and are incredibly gifted designers and that TBL by all accounts is an awesome game. I know I still want mine!

This^

At this point they should just be honest. Make the deal with ARA. Get a total cost and divide it up between all the buyers. If everyone had to add another $1k or so to get the game I think many will do it. Better than letting this drag on forever with only lawyers making the dough...just MO.

Exactly. It's not ideal, but no party has an ideal endgame where we are right now - so a a solution like this is probably the way to go. I'd rather pay a little more than lose it all, ARA would probably rather get a little than get nothing and sit on the games, Dutch would get some reputation back which is as good as cash IMO.

I hate to butt in, but I think someone should find out from ARA what is owed to release the current games in holding. From past posts, I think that is probably more than $1000 per held machine.

Looks like DP won't give you guys an honest answer yet.

The thing DP has going for it compared to the Zidware fiasco is that they have actually produced a creative, fun, and working game that has been in production. Unfortunately, despite their design and technical talent, the DP folks seem to be immature and ethically challenged. If they could get a Marcus Lemonis type of hands-on investor to take over the business side of things as part of the deal, maybe there could be some resolution. Given all of the unknowns, legal complications, and past dishonesty, I'm guessing this is a longshot. I'm hoping it works out for everyone who is in on this. I played the game at TPF and thought it was awesome. I'd love to own one someday, or at least find one in the wild.

WTF with that letter!

Ponzi scheme in writing. Good lord

They are crushing themselves

The only hope is to work out some deal with Andrew

To do that you need to get those lying broke dicks Barry and Jaap out of there

This sounds like a recipe for total disaster.

Rob

There isn't a single person I either spoke with directly or overheard discussing BOP 3.0 at TPF that didn't think it was ridiculous. This is pinball and I'm sure they'll find a few people who think 12.5k is great for a new BOP... but I'd be surprised if they got even 6 deposits total.

I don't care if they have to work the Red Light District; I'm not giving DP another guilder. $8,500 is my threshold for a NIB pinball game, which is still a very questionable amount.

Looking at DP communication it is the original agreed price between ARA and DP plus EUR 1000+ (= USD 1075+). I mentioned already several times that there is a + sign behind the number in DP communication but apparently nobody else notices it. My estimation is thus more than USD 1100.

Plus I suspect that prior to ARA releasing the 40 hostage-pins also the already delivered approx 50 pins have to be paid (original agreed price + extra amount)

I really don't think DP ever meant to screw anybody over or to start a ponzi scheme to cover their own ass. But unfortunately that is now the case. The integrity of a person or company doesn't become apparent until the shit hits the fan. At that point it's valuable to observe behavior. Does the person have a sense of accountability or responsibility or do they blame others? Even if ARA is at fault it's still possible for DP to show that they understand that it's their own problem to deal with. Make a heartfelt apology to show some respect for their supporters rather than doubling down on lies. From my perspective DP is not only disrespectful to their supporters but they also consider us to be incredibly stupid.

We don't have much information about the dispute but what we do know is that DP is not aligned with the principles of honesty or integrity. If DP's own customers have been repeatedly lied to and manipulated then I can only imagine that ARA has experienced some of this as well. With what is now known I would be very surprised to find out that ARA has even less integrity than DP. In other words, i'm guessing that the dispute has more to do with DP's clueless business practices than it does with ARA. If DP really wants to find a way out of this it's time to dispense with the smokescreen and oilslick and start telling the whole truth. But as i've said before, i'm not sure if it's about willingness; they may not have the capability to step outside their own house of cards. That is why pressure from the screwed-over is important. Without pressure they may not have any incentive to take a look in the mirror.

For about a year I was able to think about the initials "DP" without chuckling and thinking about Double Penetration.

That time is over.

Nah, it's just begun! Once for Lebowski, another for BOP Stupid LE!

He's saying the time for NOT thinking about double penetration is over and the time for DO thinking about it is beginning.

A true DP would be one of each (TBL and BOPsLE)

I always thought it stood for Don't Preorder

We have the luxury of that knowledge in 2017. Always remember the context of 2014. Jpop and Skit-B hadn't blown up yet....and even if you were onto their scam, DP didn't come off like they did. They had already started production of BOP 2.0, proving they could license, code and ship a product. They brought 3 beautiful working prototypes to Chicago Expo, proving they had a flipping game (unlike Jpop) and could make multiple units that felt Williams quality (unlike Skit's garage fanboy game).

Pre-order NOW? HELLS TO THE NO!!! But in 2014, there were no super obvious red flags concerning DP. Even into 2016 - games were shipping!!! The only time the alarms started going off were very recently.

Yeesh. Who on earth would be inspired to support them with an email like this.

That letter is not good. They are depending on BOP25 to bail them out. There is no lawsuit. At least from their end. Just damn.

Everybody relax.

They have crossed "give up" off the list.

This shit is gonna happen!

I agree with everything you said but this:

Philgate was the first sign that everything may not be what it seems to be on the surface. So much so, roger sharpe had to be brought in. It was clear to many then, DP played fast and loose with the rules. That was my getting off point with the Dutch train. It's eye opening to go back and read the posts from the philgate era.

True, Philgate was a red flag...I hadn't paid in full at that point and held back future payments until I was comfortable again. I think I waited until my BOP 2.0 kit had arrived...that and ironically the ARA announcement are probably what made me feel OK about it again.

It's clear now that DP was put in a rough position by not putting a cap on spending in their contract with ARA.

ARA holds the cards and games and need more money to finish what games they can make based on inventory parts. It's new to them also so sure they discussed this with DP at the beginning that increase in cost could happen.

The group of people that are still owed their TBL need to push forward one spokes person and talk directly to ARA to get the whole financial view what it takes to complete this project.

As well meaning and Positive the intent may have been, Im sorry this letter does not convey trust.

There are more than 3 options, and if you do not get the support for BOP, while others wait?
or you do get the support for BOP and those must wait.

Basically, you are telling everyone, if you dont want us to Give up, and game over, you need allow us
the opportunity to Create another new game with another new sub contractor?

....and of course the money for that game, and all that is will be spent on Attorneys over a possible 5 years
so, sit and wait, and be quiet?

Am I reading this wrong?

How about entertaining an honest mediation with the 3 sides represented?