(Topic ID: 184739)

Class Action Lawsuit for TBL? The Big Lebowski / Dutch Pinball


By Davidus56

3 years ago



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#51 3 years ago

If DP was ready to pay the extra $1000 per game if done by December 2016 - Why not just pay the extra $1000 per game now and be done with it??? At least for the games that are done, and for parts already on hand. That's only 120 games = 120K. Then take the remaining assets ARA is holding and move to another mfr. The December time frame isn't going to hurt/help DP at this point - just get the issue with ARA resolved.

#52 3 years ago

i was reading earlier this week, if a company is having troubles, it is better to be an early agitator, and get paid to shut up,than to wait and see and get nothing

#54 3 years ago

They made a point to call out no refunds in their presentation. That was one of the few things that wasn't a generality. If I had to guess I'd guess they have money issues, just what that speech sounded like. It would make sense, they've shipped 40 ish games in what 3 years? The people working on this are taking a salary, without much $$ coming in. I could also be wrong, and the games could start shipping next week.

Last thing, he gave a simple answer to the lack of communication on his part. "Hey what do you want me to say, no news this week?" That's exactly what companies do, you let your stakeholders know what's going on, if there's no update you say no update. Anyone that works in any form of corporate communication knows this, it's like your second thing you go over with new employees, the first being where the bathroom is.

#55 3 years ago
Quoted from Damon:

Universal and Bally which i think is a really good idea, if enough of us call it could add some much needed pressure

Offhand, I'd suspect you're wasting your time calling Universal - they aren't going to do ANYTHING unless DP violates the contract (it's a contract - that's sort of it's purpose). It's not like they can whip the license out from under DP if they wake up pissed off one morning. They have to follow the contract, same as DP does.

Call them if you like, but unless you can show them something that makes them think DP is violating the contract, they aren't going to do anything. And honestly, even if DP IS somehow violating the license, they STILL might not do anything, because it may not be worth their time - it's not like leaving the contract in place is costing them anything (who else would they sell a BL pinball license to?).

That said, it's certainly not going to cost anything but your time to call Universal. I would advise that you have specific things that you want them to do when you call - if you get hold of someone sympathetic and you simply whine about DP, they aren't going to care. If you say 'please do <specific thing> to help us', then if they are feeling generous with their time, perhaps they'll do X. And by specific I don't mean 'please apply pressure'. I mean 'Please call <this guy> and let him know you're getting annoyed buyer phone calls'. Specific requests might generate something, generalized rants will NOT.

#56 3 years ago
Quoted from mhkohne:

That said, it's certainly not going to cost anything but your time to call Universal. I would advise that you have specific things that you want them to do when you call - if you get hold of someone sympathetic and you simply whine about DP, they aren't going to care. If you say 'please do <specific thing> to help us', then if they are feeling generous with their time, perhaps they'll do X. And by specific I don't mean 'please apply pressure'. I mean 'Please call <this guy> and let him know you're getting annoyed buyer phone calls'. Specific requests might generate something, generalized rants will NOT.

Personally my biggest goal in calling monday to ARA/VDL/Bally/Universal will be to understand the basic framework and paradigm of the agreements. The biggest problem is that everything we know is through, for the most part, DP. We dont know whats true and whats not at this point. If someone hadnt called ARA wed all still think this was a board isssue, we were literally lied to, then told to our faces that we were lied to. Its difficult for me to trust what DP is telling me, id rather call the companies and ask them direct questions myself

10
#57 3 years ago
Quoted from Damon:

Personally my biggest goal in calling monday to ARA/VDL/Bally/Universal will be to understand the basic framework and paradigm of the agreements. The biggest problem is that everything we know is through, for the most part, DP. We dont know whats true and whats not at this point. If someone hadnt called ARA wed all still think this was a board isssue, we were literally lied to, then told to our faces that we were lied to. Its difficult for me to trust what DP is telling me, id rather call the companies and ask them direct questions myself

Good luck, but I doubt anyone will discuss contract details with someone who calls out of the blue and isn't a party to those contracts.

#58 3 years ago
Quoted from taz:

Good luck, but I doubt anyone will discuss contract details with someone who calls out of the blue and isn't a party to those contracts.

You can doubt it but thats how we found about about all the board stuff. Someone emailed/spoke to ARA and they told us about the non payment from DP which led to where were at now.

#59 3 years ago

Universal's deal is they already got their money dudes. They don't really care at this point unless DP did something to violate the agreement like unauthorized use of likenesses.

IMO, the most it could do is screw something up. It could possibly hold up the release of unmade games if there was some sort of timeframe to get them made. Not sure what it could do to help at all. It was Rarehero's idea to shake down DP with a threat of this and get his refund. "I know people, so give me a refund or I will create another headache for you guys"

I'm open to changing my mind on this, but haven't heard anything that makes sense.

#60 3 years ago
Quoted from Damon:

You can doubt it but thats how we found about about all the board stuff. Someone emailed/spoke to ARA and they told us about the non payment from DP which led to where were at now.

Never say never, I suppose. I can see an aggrieved party speaking out more than someone who isn't. But we are in the era of Wikileaks aren't we.

#61 3 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

Universal's deal is they already got their money dudes. They don't really care at this point unless DP did something to violate the agreement like unauthorized use of likenesses.
IMO, the most it could do is screw something up. It could possibly hold up the release of unmade games if there was some sort of timeframe to get them made. Not sure what it could do to help at all. It was Rarehero's idea to shake down DP with a threat of this and get his refund. "I know people, so give me a refund or I will create another headache for you guys"
I'm open to changing my mind on this, but haven't heard anything that makes sense.

I cant speak to Rarehero specifically but for me calling Universal is more of a fact finding mission. I grew up in LA, id think youd be suprised how much movie studios care about PR issues. If there's a company using their license to secure funding, then refusing to release the product or refunds they MAY want to know about it. Maybe they dont give a shit, itll take me an hour tops to call, so no big deal.
Im more concerned with talking to the folks at ARA and VDL than anything. Im curious with respect to VDL if theyre funding BoP, and if so, why they wouldnt just fund TBL instead. With ARA i have a long list of questions....

#62 3 years ago

I've been in this for a long time and I'm staying until the end. The last NSNL sums up the situation. Let's see if lawyers from both sides can come to an agreement and get the games moving again.

#63 3 years ago
Quoted from PopBumperPete:

i was reading earlier this week, if a company is having troubles, it is better to be an early agitator, and get paid to shut up,than to wait and see and get nothing

Hush money; now we're talkin'.....

#64 3 years ago

no one knows if Universal got their money, could be linked to selling all 300 machines!

#65 3 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

no one knows if Universal got their money, could be linked to selling all 300 machines!

Given the laser focus on money that Universal has, do you really think that they'd even spend lawyer time talking to an unknown like DP if there wasn't going to be cash up front? Again, never say never, but I'd be VERY surprised if someone authorized a license deal that didn't include an up-front payment. Not to say that there isn't more per machine, but you bet your money they aren't depending on the machines to sell to make something out of this deal.

#66 3 years ago

There's a lot of stomping and snorting going on right now which is understandable but I think the only thing a person can do is call DP repeatedly for a refund. Universal isn't doing shit.

DP really should pay the higher cost of manufacturing to ARA. They can whine and complain but it sounds like DP made the mistake in pricing the game and taking to long to produce it. If they've already paid an increase once it doesn't sound like their contract is very good.

#67 3 years ago

Unless DP plans to go chapter 11, they are foolish not to pony up the $1,000 to ARA, negotiate a compromise whereby neither company makes any money on this first title - just breaks even, and then try and do a better job on the next title. However, the delays and lies lead me to believe this will be another American Greed story. DP takes a lot of trusting, naïve collectors money and at the first sign of trouble, maneuvers to keep as much of this money for themselves, close shop and repeats the con. If they refund our money, then I am wrong and I will apologize for thinking the worst. If it's more excuses and no refunds, then they have criminal intent and should serve time in the pen.

#68 3 years ago
Quoted from dmbjunky:

DP really should pay the higher cost of manufacturing to ARA. They can whine and complain but it sounds like DP made the mistake in pricing the game and taking to long to produce it. If they've already paid an increase once it doesn't sound like their contract is very good.

Ditto

#69 3 years ago
Quoted from mhkohne:

Given the laser focus on money that Universal has, do you really think that they'd even spend lawyer time talking to an unknown like DP if there wasn't going to be cash up front? Again, never say never, but I'd be VERY surprised if someone authorized a license deal that didn't include an up-front payment. Not to say that there isn't more per machine, but you bet your money they aren't depending on the machines to sell to make something out of this deal.

I seem to recall back in the Phil days someone quoted about $70,000 up front payment for the TBL license. I have no idea where now, or if I'm confusing it with something else. Maybe someone else has a better memory of that.

#70 3 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

I've been in this for a long time and I'm staying until the end. The last NSNL sums up the situation. Let's see if lawyers from both sides can come to an agreement and get the games moving again.

can totally respect that, its your choice to spend your money where you choose. our goal is/should be for those who WANT refunds to be given the option to get them.

Quoted from dmbjunky:

There's a lot of stomping and snorting going on right now which is understandable but I think the only thing a person can do is call DP repeatedly for a refund. Universal isn't doing shit.

I think people seem to be making a bigger deal about Universal than was intended, Greg's point was that he could go speak to them face to face rather than email because hes close. Its actually a good idea, putting a face behind things generally humanizes the interaction and he might get more info in person than we would get through email. Its not like Universal will probably do anything, but its easy and maybe we will get a small nugget of truth that leads to another truth. I dont see what the harm in it is.

Midnight tonight=9am monday morning Netherlands time, Im going to start calling companies (ARA/VDL/Netherlands Authority for Consumers and Markets) I think this last agency will be important because they are essentially a regulatory agency in the Netherlands. https://www.acm.nl/en/about-acm/mission-vision-strategy/our-mission/
Its literally their job to care. Im going to file a complaint with them and emplore other early achievers to do the same, here is the website to file a formal complaint. https://www.acm.nl/en/contact/tip-offs-or-indications/tip-off/

#71 3 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

It's odd that people think validating the license could cause things to crash down.
I believe that is referred to as a house of cards, and it typically doesn't stand much of a chance no matter what event knocks it down.

Wait.....they don't actually have TBL license? Just like Skitb didn't have Predator for license?

Or am I misreading things entirely?

#72 3 years ago
Quoted from SuperTurbo:

Or am I misreading things entirely?

Yes

#73 3 years ago
Quoted from SuperTurbo:

Wait.....they don't actually have TBL license? Just like Skitb didn't have Predator for license?
Or am I misreading things entirely?

no they had/have a license from universal, i believe roger sharpe helped with the licensing stuff so its safe to assume that the license stuff is in order. i think what wolf meant was violating the license wouldn't cause the company to crash unless their were bigger issues, similiar to a house of cards where a small breeze might cause it to crash, but it wasnt the the breeze, it was the shitty foundation.

#74 3 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

I've been in this for a long time and I'm staying until the end.

+1

I don't think we have much other choice realistically so let's all stay positive . It should be in ARA's and DP's interest to resolve their TBL dispute. The question to me is whether a third party helping them (and us potentially) to reach a mutual agreement is a viable option or will DP truly need to resort to legal action as stated in their email.

#75 3 years ago
Quoted from Damon:

i think what wolf meant was violating the license wouldn't cause the company to crash unless their were bigger issues, similiar to a house of cards where a small breeze might cause it to crash, but it wasnt the the breeze, it was the shitty foundation.

Correct. Sorry if anyone thought I was saying they don't have the license.

Just saying that if things went south, it wouldn't be because Rarehero or anyone else went poking around for answers.

12
#76 3 years ago
Quoted from dmbjunky:

DP really should pay the higher cost of manufacturing to ARA.

Well, this combined with the BOP25 cash grab announcement brings up the question whether or not DP is even in a position where they have the liquid assets on-hand to pay for the additional amount ARA is demanding even if they wanted to.

I really, really hope things get sorted out between ARA & DP. Watching another boutique manufacturer implode is not something anyone wants to see happen again.

#77 3 years ago

I've sent an email to 'barry' at DP requesting a refund of my deposit. If I'm ignored, then that pretty much tells us they have no intention of honoring their customers with deposits - either because they are financially unable to or because they are crooks. If ARA has deep pockets, then adding them to a class action lawsuit might compel them to 'settle' - perhaps by finishing the games that they have parts for. At this point, I think DP is finished regardless of how this all turns out. They lied about the delay and therefore have lost all trust and any remaining good will they might have had. I certainly don't think they should be allowed to take multi-thousand dollar deposits on a 2nd game. That is insane.

The question for the courts will be, did they purposely mislead customers? If we can prove that, then we can pierce the corporate shield and demonstrate criminal intent.

#78 3 years ago

This is very disappointing as this is THE game I was most excited about (I am # 147). Damon - I support your intentions but am not sure it is advised teenage in contac twithout legal council at the helm. I am no legal expert, do have a marketing background, and see three possible paths:

1. As mentioned previously in another thread, the ARA and DP lawyers find the mid-point that is not perfect for either but respects the investments of us as customers. I hate to say this but, having done business in Holland, flexibility is not a top three attribute

2. As buyers, we offer to pay the extra $1000, in an escrow count, payable upon delivery. At this point I am more than willing to do this rather than lose my entire payment. I thin this is the most practical option

3. Universal is brought into the equation by us making this a PR issue for them in such a way that they are motivated to make help resolve this. I would hope that we have someone with PR and/or social networking experience that could help to escalate this.

#79 3 years ago

#80 3 years ago

I get asked all the time why I dont carry the smaller upstart companies, I just could never handle the Stress they put all you guys through. I could only imagine how its feels knowing you have x number of customers with deposits on a game that is unlikely to happen at this point. The worst is you gotta know you are likely going to get caught up in the lawsuits your self because to be effective they need to name you as a party as well.

I really like the escrow Idea. Use a escrow firm so everyone is protected.. it sucks to pay more for a game you already paid for but its better then loosing everything.

JJ

#81 3 years ago
Quoted from Hjbondar:

This is very disappointing as this is THE game I was most excited about (I am # 147). Damon - I support your intentions but am not sure it is advised teenage in contac twithout legal council at the helm. I am no legal expert, do have a marketing background, and see three possible paths:
1. As mentioned previously in another thread, the ARA and DP lawyers find the mid-point that is not perfect for either but respects the investments of us as customers. I hate to say this but, having done business in Holland, flexibility is not a top three attribute
2. As buyers, we offer to pay the extra $1000, in an escrow count, payable upon delivery. At this point I am more than willing to do this rather than lose my entire payment. I thin this is the most practical option
3. Universal is brought into the equation by us making this a PR issue for them in such a way that they are motivated to make help resolve this. I would hope that we have someone with PR and/or social networking experience that could help to escalate this.

My intent was always to get everyone more information about the current situation and create a path for those customers who felt trepidation moving forward could come to a resolution with Dutch Pinball in regards to refunds. I felt that contacting agencies and companies that know more about this than ourselves was the best call. Nothing more, nothing less. I never said, "hey guys lets sue the shit out of DP." My goal was always to just get DP to honor the initial agreement of full refunds if you chose to cancel. I wanted to do is start a healthy conversation about what our options were, and what, as a community the best path was moving forward. It seems like theres a decent amount of vitriol and frustration in terms of whether or not we should or shouldnt contact people. I dont honestly know what the right answer is, but I dont want to be the guy to make that decision given where peoples emotions are at. Im not going to pursue this any further, I will not be calling or contacting anyone. I will likely try to find a private party to sell my TBL spot to whether it be through handshake agreement or through Barry and Jaap. Everyone has to do whats best for them, and I wish everyone the best of luck.

#82 3 years ago

140 games paid for.. another 160 that are not, all were sold out, so that's 160,000 of In-tapped resource.

If a resolution is made and game production starts up again and DP haven't totally Fucked it all up with peoples faith (they're getting close) and games are paid for that's another 1mil +

-1
#83 3 years ago

Refunds were only possible before the games went into production. We're in production folks, no refunds. The money has been invested in parts- we now have to wait until the parts are made into the games. Give the guys a break, more headaches for DP won't help.

#84 3 years ago
Quoted from Hjbondar:

This is very disappointing as this is THE game I was most excited about (I am # 147). Damon - I support your intentions but am not sure it is advised teenage in contac twithout legal council at the helm. I am no legal expert, do have a marketing background, and see three possible paths:

3. Universal is brought into the equation by us making this a PR issue for them in such a way that they are motivated to make help resolve this. I would hope that we have someone with PR and/or social networking experience that could help to escalate this.

Universal are not going to help in this situation. They will steer clear of the debarcle. It is the responsibility of DP to sort out this mess. I think they are going to need an investor of some kind to provide them a lifeline. Fingers crossed.

#85 3 years ago
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

I certainly would never suggest "Dont" contact Universal Studios, but in chatting with my Brother,
A former Universal Attorney, his answer was simply, "Good Luck".....not in a good way.
I would hope as the next few days go by, some answers or direction that would be of help, for the anguish
being felt over the situation.
Its definitely a tricky situation, and as usual its brought on by Money, and attempts to get fixed by money.
What I mean, is if we look down the road, and legal action seems needed, it might cost $500-$1000 per person to pursue, with unsure results, where that same amount in an honest open effort with Dutch, could resolve in the games going out....
Whats best? $1000 to an attorney, with unknown answers, or DP communicating with its customers, and finding answers of reason and compromise, before attorneys take whatever is needed to force a result?
I dont know? just thoughts...IMO.....

Universal/Paramount was a client of mine for 7+ years. Far from trying to be negative here and wish all involved the best in a terrible situation. However, from experience im telling you that a meeting to discuss a few hundred pinballs not being manufatured will never happen. Its not easy to sit in front of a billion dollar business.

#86 3 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Refunds were only possible before the games went into production. We're in production folks, no refunds. The money has been invested in parts- we now have to wait until the parts are made into the games. Give the guys a break, more headaches for DP won't help.

You keep saying that but I dont remember there ever being a stipulation on when orders could be refunded. Do have a link to where this was stated? According the FAQ from Dec-13 Oct-16 this was the only thing stated about refunds.

Lebowski Info.jpg

#87 3 years ago
Quoted from Grg:

Universal/Paramount was a client of mine for 7+ years. Far from trying to be negative here and wish all involved the best in a terrible situation. However, from experience im telling you that a meeting to discuss a few hundred pinballs not being manufatured will never happen. Its not easy to sit in front of a billion dollar business.

If a meeting happens and the end result is it ends any chance of us getting a pinball how is that worth it? You have no way of predicting the end result and how they will react.

#88 3 years ago

Hey guys, trying to keep the postings on the 2 threads straight. This was a comment from DerRoland on the other thread:

I´m really sorry for all, who have their worthy money in this trouble. I jumped of the train at philgate.
After reading the last NSNL ("march: silence") I like the idea of a 3rd known enthusiast trustee, who deal with the 2 companies and spell dutch.
Well, I suggest Jonathan Joosten. He could/should help, to break the silence.

#89 3 years ago

I PM'd DerRoland and asked about Mr. Joosten. I will report back.

Next, I think it might be a good idea to contact ARA. Anyone here speak Dutch?

Lastly, it might not be a bad idea if these things fail, to pony up a few bucks between us all and have a Dutch attorney write a letter for us to both parties.

13
#90 3 years ago

Would a class action lawsuit help anyone? Aside from the lawyers involved it seems very unlikely. Research how it worked out in other cases and you'll discover all parties end up loosing. Only the lawyers make money, so what's the point in going that route? As mentioned by others: chances are you'll fuck it up for everyone involved, pay a lawyer more than your refund will ever be and not get a refund after all. So basically you end up throwing away more money, fuck things up and end up with nothing. What's the point? I don't see any, unless you want to fuck it up for all others involved. Making things more complicated won't benefit anyone. Anyone's best shot at eventually getting their game is to lay low and be patient. Any other option will cost more and seems unlikely to solve anything for anyone.

#91 3 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

I PM'd DerRoland and asked about Mr. Joosten. I will report back.
Next, I think it might be a good idea to contact ARA. Anyone here speak Dutch?
Lastly, it might not be a bad idea if these things fail, to pony up a few bucks between us all and have a Dutch attorney write a letter for us to both parties.

Haven't seen the other thread yet and as I'm traveling I doubt I'll see it today as I'm about to leave. If I can help I will. Please note my post above was posted before I saw my name was mentioned in this topic.

#92 3 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

Haven't seen the other thread yet and as I'm traveling I doubt I'll see it today as I'm about to leave. If I can help I will. Please note my post above was posted before I saw my name was mentioned in this topic.

Johnathon, if you're willing to be a "3rd party arbitrator" of sorts, I think that's a fantastic idea. You're someone we all trust. I'm willing to lay low and chill out if you're in our corner digging for answers and helping with solutions.

#93 3 years ago

Wouldnt the Fairest thing to do be to have the open communication, split the cost by 3, with the same amount being given as a future discount for a future game, to the end user and Turn this thing around?

$300-$500 from each Party would more than solve this, maybe?

#94 3 years ago

I have no dog in this fight, but the problem seems to be, based on DP's statements, with ARA not honoring their contract with DP. Everything seems to stem from ARA's actions as far as we know.

So why not offer to team up with DP, get the real story (confirm what they are saying), and use all this motivation to make this happen to file a suit with DP against ARA? Force ARA to honor their contract!

I know there are trust issues with DP, but in the end we want to support pinball, get the machines, and hopefully move in a positive direction?

#95 3 years ago
Quoted from Khabbi:

I have no dog in this fight, but the problem seems to be, based on DP's statements, with ARA not honoring their contract with DP. Everything seems to stem from ARA's actions as far as we know.
So why not offer to team up with DP, get the real story (confirm what they are saying), and use all this motivation to make this happen to file a suit with DP against ARA? Force ARA to honor their contract!
I know there are trust issues with DP, but in the end we want to support pinball, get the machines, and hopefully move in a positive direction?

I wonder how good the contract is. If the job has a set price or allows ARA to raise the price.

If DP paid an increase one time already, it sounds like there is some flexibility in what ARA can charge for manufacturing. Otherwise I would assume after you paid for one increase, you would make sure that didn't happen again with a new contract that set the price in stone.

#96 3 years ago

I don't have a dog in this fight.

But from what I see as an outsiders perspective, there's DP's side of the story, ARA's side of the story and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Now, it doesn't help that DP committed the mother of all f_ck ups by lying to its customers about the status of their machines.

#97 3 years ago

Has anybody tried emailing ARA?

#98 3 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Has anybody tried emailing ARA?

We still work per pigeon post overhere, give it a day or two...

#99 3 years ago
Quoted from PinSinner:

Universal are not going to help in this situation. They will steer clear of the debarcle. It is the responsibility of DP to sort out this mess. I think they are going to need an investor of some kind to provide them a lifeline. Fingers crossed.

Instead of the shakedown tactics, how someone put in a call to the Angel Investor who bailed out JJP? That guy is a billionaire who loves pinball. This is chump change to him.

#100 3 years ago

Isn't there anyone pinball related in the vicinity of ARA and DP?

It's impossible to resolve this issue over here.

Gotta be somebody local willing to devote a little time and try and sit down with ARA and/or their counsel.

Set up a skype or go to meeting call with interested parties

Waiting for something to happen isn't a good strategy. See Jpop fiasco

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