(Topic ID: 184739)

Class Action Lawsuit for TBL? The Big Lebowski / Dutch Pinball


By Davidus56

2 years ago



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#551 1 year ago

I don't think it is time for torches and pitchforks yet. They have a plan and so far seem to be following it. This is a summary of it from the other thread (only posting bc some Donnies have shown up a little late...)

Watched the video. Here are the highlights if you are interested:
- They believe they can skip prototypes altogether and begin with engineering (0 series) samples, possibly having them built by October (this sounded like a blue sky forecast, but that's fine). Not sure what this means in regards to testing, that would be a great question for the next update.

- He did kind of gloss over the shared IP (ARA and DP developing a custom part, for example) question. But if that's a problem, it will come up by the time they have an engineering sample at a show.

- He discussed financing!! Seems like the new CM isn't interested in completely being the bank. He said that they (new CM) believes that the extra machines ordered by CT and Nitro (there are 200 of these, per Jaap) that have $1000 deposits on them can help pay for the 130 that have been paid for already. The quote was something like "being creative in how we build and ship the 200". Jaap believes DP has enough money in the bank that the profit from the 200 CT/Nitro machines + money in bank, will be enough to make the whole project (all 330 machines) cash flow. I took this to mean that they may be producing some of the 200 and the 130 at the same time in order to make the money work.

- There are more Lebowskis on the way! Says they will engage a small number of Distros in Europe to sell additional machines at some point in the future. He envisions as many as 600 machines posssibly built through the new CM between Nitro/CT and some new sales efforts in Europe.

All in all, I thought this was their best update ever. He used actual numbers, talked finances, the numbers make some sense to me, and so does the plan so far.

#552 1 year ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

Thats good news!
I know 3 that might fly in to have a little talk with them and discuss refunds. If there even thinking of a new table or company. Well, i'd love to film the conversation mentioned above.
This could get real good and ugly fast.
(Above sounded harsh, No violence or yelling would be tolerated.)

So in 2014 DP brought nice ladies, in 2017 DP will bring body guards ?

#553 1 year ago
Quoted from Davidus56:

So, to return to the original question. Do we wait for more broken promises or go ahead and put them out of their misery with a lawsuit? I don't mind initiating the lawsuit. The goal would be for them to come clean on refunds, or barring that, force them into bankruptcy, then buy the rights to TBL. Someone like JJP or Spooky might make the game at that point. I imagine everyone with deposits would lose them, including me.
I'm just tired of excuses. I want my TBL and I would just as soon have someone else build it.

As a two-time loser to JPoP and Twisted Pins (almost a third on TBL), I can tell you it's a losing proposition to throw good money after bad going the legal route. Unfortunately, deadbeats have so much room to maneuver and drag things out that you never really get justice. By the time you get close, you're number 20 in line for pennies on the dollar. Far less than you spent to get there. It's a terrible reality in these matters.

#554 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

So in 2014 DP brought nice ladies, in 2017 DP will bring body guards ?

I know, everyone fell for the long pretty legs and bought a pinball machine.

#555 1 year ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

I know, everyone fell for the long pretty legs and bought a pinball machine.

Actually, I wasn't even there. I just wanted a pin.

#556 1 year ago

Today's update from Dutch Pinball for anyone who hasn't already seen it on the TBL pre-orderers thread:

"It’s Friday again so… here is your weekly update about the production of The Big Lebowski™ Pinball.

We introduced our friends Cointaker to our new Contract Manufacturer and both organizations were happy to meet each other via Skype. The three of us talked about 1.5 hours about plans and expectations and we concluded that 2018 will be a very good year for our three companies. We will introduce our new Contract Manufacturer to you at Expo in Chicago (from Wednesday, October 11 until Sunday, October 15) where we will do a presentation on Friday at 6PM.

This week we received almost all parts to start producing the 0-series. We are now waiting for the last parts to arrive so we are getting there! We still are on schedule that the first ‘new’ TBL will be ready in October. We still are on track to deliver the first ‘new’ TBLs before the end of this year.

Next week we will be back with another update.

Have a nice weekend!

Kind regards,

Barry & Jaap"

 

-4
#557 1 year ago
Quoted from taz:

As a two-time loser to JPoP and Twisted Pins (almost a third on TBL), I can tell you it's a losing proposition to throw good money after bad going the legal route. Unfortunately, deadbeats have so much room to maneuver and drag things out that you never really get justice. By the time you get close, you're number 20 in line for pennies on the dollar. Far less than you spent to get there. It's a terrible reality in these matters.

So just to be clear, I wouldn't force bankruptcy thinking I would get any money back. I would do it in order to buy the I.P. rights to TBL so another, reputable pinball manufacturer could take over the project. Charlie and Kayte could probably be talked into making them if they could get a decent profit margin - and of course, be guaranteed not to be drawn into any legal quagmire from ARA, DP or frustrated 'depositors'.

#558 1 year ago
Quoted from Davidus56:

I would do it in order to buy the I.P. rights to TBL so another, reputable pinball manufacturer could take over the project. Charlie and Kayte could probably be talked into making them if they could get a decent profit margin - and of course, be guaranteed not to be drawn into any legal quagmire from ARA, DP or frustrated 'depositors'.

So you want to screw over every TBL preorder person as they will surely lose 100% of their money this way?
Just to hope for a chance that Charlie picks up and people can pay in full again, if they want a Lebowski?

-1
#559 1 year ago
Quoted from Biv:

So you want to screw over every TBL preorder person as they will surely lose 100% of their money this way?
Just to hope for a chance that Charlie picks up and people can pay in full again, if they want a Lebowski?

That sounds about as reasonable as a metro with no zoning laws...

#560 1 year ago
Quoted from Davidus56:

So just to be clear, I wouldn't force bankruptcy thinking I would get any money back. I would do it in order to buy the I.P. rights to TBL so another, reputable pinball manufacturer could take over the project. Charlie and Kayte could probably be talked into making them if they could get a decent profit margin - and of course, be guaranteed not to be drawn into any legal quagmire from ARA, DP or frustrated 'depositors'.

Anyone that screws the pre-paids, especially in the scenario you describe above, would be in a lot of trouble with the pre-paids unless we were made whole in the process.

#561 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

We will introduce our new Contract Manufacturer to you at Expo in Chicago (from Wednesday, October 11 until Sunday, October 15) where we will do a presentation on Friday at 6PM.

Seriously?

What a F ing joke that is.

How about stay where you are at and build the F ing games.

A pair of dopes from day one. I really hope i can get to Expo this year.

#562 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Seriously?
What a F ing joke that is.
How about stay where you are at and build the F ing games.

Jaap is announcing their new $12,500 SE edition game which will be available for preorder at the show. Word on the street is that it's "Bride's Baby Daddy (4.0)," but you didn't hear it from me.

#563 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Seriously?
What a F ing joke that is.
How about stay where you are at and build the F ing games.
A pair of dopes from day one. I really hope i can get to Expo this year.

Hopefully they will be bringing the latest engineered games - running on the new boards and latest software. It would be great to see these games undergo three days straight of public testing at Expo to validate their reliability and robustness. The bowling alley, rug and car better work perfectly too.

So if DP was revealing final progress and proof of concept, then traveling to Expo with a couple of games is warranted. If they are planning to attend just provide an update - Skype it in.

#564 1 year ago

If Barry and Jaap have something truly productive to say (and to show as well ideally), I don't personally have an issue with them attending or presenting at Expo.

Communication is a good thing - especially face-to-face.

BTW: love that avatar man!

#565 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

If Barry and Jaap have something truly productive to say (and to show as well ideally), I don't personaly have an issue with them attending or presenting at Expo.
Communication is a good thing - especially face-to-face.
BTW: love that avatar man!

If they went silent and invisible, that would be a really bad sign IMO. So I am glad they will be at expo.

That being said, they need to stick with talking about TBL plans and schedule. No more foolishness about 2nd games.

1 month later
#566 1 year ago

Did they talk at Expo?

#567 1 year ago
Quoted from TKDalumni:

Did they talk at Expo?

Yep. See the other TBL thread

#568 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Yep. See the other TBL thread

Don't see it.

1 year later
#570 84 days ago

Hear me out, a way around the legal trouble? Every sound that has a copyright issue, buy the actual CD with the music or sound on it and mount it to a forever scanning CD drive (they are cheap but bulky) and set it in the cabinet. For home use only, I could legally say... I own this music I just have a sophisticated CD skipper that plays the music when I want it. Each sound is stacked with more CD drives in the machine but each piece is legally purchased for my own use. A little like a Dragon's Lair but many CD drives. But for cool copyrighted background tunes... 20 CD drives to handle the copyrighted music.. the computer takes care of the rest and switches on the music when that part of the game triggers. A potentially big box in the bottom of a pinball machine but... I would have my copyrighted music... bought and paid for... playing when I want it to inside the game... no contest?

#571 83 days ago

YOur out of your element Donny.

QSS

Quoted from jeffiowa:

Hear me out, a way around the legal trouble? Every sound that has a copyright issue, buy the actual CD with the music or sound on it and mount it to a forever scanning CD drive (they are cheap but bulky) and set it in the cabinet. For home use only, I could legally say... I own this music I just have a sophisticated CD skipper that plays the music when I want it. Each sound is stacked with more CD drives in the machine but each piece is legally purchased for my own use. A little like a Dragon's Lair but many CD drives. But for cool copyrighted background tunes... 20 CD drives to handle the copyrighted music.. the computer takes care of the rest and switches on the music when that part of the game triggers. A potentially big box in the bottom of a pinball machine but... I would have my copyrighted music... bought and paid for... playing when I want it to inside the game... no contest?

Donny, you're out of your element.

QSS

#572 83 days ago
Quoted from QuickSilverShelb:

YOur out of your element Donny.
QSS

Donny, you're out of your element.
QSS

That’s some funny shit.

Quoted from jeffiowa:

Hear me out, a way around the legal trouble? Every sound that has a copyright issue, buy the actual CD with the music or sound on it and mount it to a forever scanning CD drive (they are cheap but bulky) and set it in the cabinet. For home use only, I could legally say... I own this music I just have a sophisticated CD skipper that plays the music when I want it. Each sound is stacked with more CD drives in the machine but each piece is legally purchased for my own use. A little like a Dragon's Lair but many CD drives. But for cool copyrighted background tunes... 20 CD drives to handle the copyrighted music.. the computer takes care of the rest and switches on the music when that part of the game triggers. A potentially big box in the bottom of a pinball machine but... I would have my copyrighted music... bought and paid for... playing when I want it to inside the game... no contest?

I don’t know why Stern doesn’t have a CD player in every one of their music pins and use it to play the music either. This was sorely noted when Beatles came out with 8 songs. Buy a friggin CD of the Beatles greatest hits or multiple cds and code game to play from cd in cd quality. Anyways, back to your idea for TBL, there are so many issues and obstacles to making more TBL’s, that resolving music license rights is the least of anyone’s worries.

#573 78 days ago

Honestly? What are the real chances the game will be made again ? Like 2000
Units ???

I’d say Slim to none

#574 78 days ago

Just install an 8-track like those old gun games.

2 weeks later
#575 58 days ago

I'm working on a youtube series about Rare, Lost or Prototype pins (games that either started as something else or never saw the light of day)..can someone give me a decent run-down of the situation as it stands? DP is still dealing with court issues and the game has not made it's way to most of the customers with pre orders? am I correct in that assumption? I see one for sale right now on here for 21.5k...how many actually made it out to the public? I've been reading through the forums, but would love someone to help me timeline the overall story..pretty deep forum posts, I kinda get lost in the back and forth..anybody wanna help? Thanks!

#576 58 days ago

This would be a good thread to look at: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-preorder-club

Dutch Pinball contracted to build games with ARA, and ARA had supposedly built about 40 games, with parts on-hand for several more. For whatever reason, there was a pricing dispute (some people are saying that ARA underestimated what it would cost to build the games and wanted to charge more, or Dutch made changes part way through that increased the cost, or some people are saying Dutch simply ran out of money, or possibly some combination of all three). In either case, ARA wouldn't release the games and Dutch wouldn't pay, so they went to court over the issue. ARA offered a deal to produce/release games in exchange for 51% ownership in Dutch Pinball, but the owners of Dutch Pinball declined. It still appears to be an ongoing case, but at last report, the judge overseeing the case ordered the two parties to try to work things out between them before proceeding further in court (which is apparently the dispute process under Dutch law).

Some pre-order customers and distributors received their games, some did not.

After the situation with ARA was at a standstill back in late 2017, Dutch Pinball announced they would start manufacturing games again with a Chinese company, Xytech. They built a couple of engineering samples, however, for some unanswered reason, full production did not proceed.

I'm sure there's a lot more, but that's just what I recall off the top of my head.

#577 58 days ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

I'm sure there's a lot more, but that's just what I recall off the top of my head.

There is, but you've provided a good start.

#578 58 days ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

ARA had supposedly built about 40 games... Some pre-order customers and distributors received their games, some did not.

I don't think anyone (outside of ARA and DP) knows for sure how many games were manufactured, and of those how many were shipped to buyers vs. are still sitting in a warehouse pending resolution of the DP/ARA dispute.

A number that frequently discussed in the TBL thread was ~50 games actually shipped to buyers. I'm not sure if anyone tried to run it down by tracking the last serial number known to have shipped (I believe they were numbered in production order, so #1 shipped first, #2 second, and so-on). In this post someone reports that they were told by a distributor that by the end ~60 had actually shipped:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-preorder-club/page/59#post-3601013

And according to what appears to be a letter sent by ARA, ~40 additional games were sitting in ARA's warehouse as of two years ago:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-preorder-club/page/70#post-3623849

#579 58 days ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

This would be a good thread to look at: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-preorder-club
Dutch Pinball contracted to build games with ARA, and ARA had supposedly built about 40 games, with parts on-hand for several more. For whatever reason, there was a pricing dispute (some people are saying that ARA underestimated what it would cost to build the games and wanted to charge more, or Dutch made changes part way through that increased the cost, or some people are saying Dutch simply ran out of money, or possibly some combination of all three). In either case, ARA wouldn't release the games and Dutch wouldn't pay, so they went to court over the issue. ARA offered a deal to produce/release games in exchange for 51% ownership in Dutch Pinball, but the owners of Dutch Pinball declined. It still appears to be an ongoing case, but at last report, the judge overseeing the case ordered the two parties to try to work things out between them before proceeding further in court (which is apparently the dispute process under Dutch law).
Some pre-order customers and distributors received their games, some did not.
After the situation with ARA was at a standstill back in late 2017, Dutch Pinball announced they would start manufacturing games again with a Chinese company, Xytech. They built a couple of engineering samples, however, for some unanswered reason, full production did not proceed.
I'm sure there's a lot more, but that's just what I recall off the top of my head.

Thank you so much..that was basically the same general info I had uncovered..wanted to make sure I was in the ballpark

#580 58 days ago
Quoted from jeffiowa:

Hear me out, a way around the legal trouble? Every sound that has a copyright issue, buy the actual CD with the music or sound on it and mount it to a forever scanning CD drive (they are cheap but bulky) and set it in the cabinet. For home use only, I could legally say... I own this music I just have a sophisticated CD skipper that plays the music when I want it. Each sound is stacked with more CD drives in the machine but each piece is legally purchased for my own use. A little like a Dragon's Lair but many CD drives. But for cool copyrighted background tunes... 20 CD drives to handle the copyrighted music.. the computer takes care of the rest and switches on the music when that part of the game triggers. A potentially big box in the bottom of a pinball machine but... I would have my copyrighted music... bought and paid for... playing when I want it to inside the game... no contest?

This solves everything!

#581 58 days ago
Quoted from CaptNRetro:

I'm working on a youtube series about Rare, Lost or Prototype pins (games that either started as something else or never saw the light of day)..can someone give me a decent run-down of the situation as it stands? DP is still dealing with court issues and the game has not made it's way to most of the customers with pre orders? am I correct in that assumption? I see one for sale right now on here for 21.5k...how many actually made it out to the public? I've been reading through the forums, but would love someone to help me timeline the overall story..pretty deep forum posts, I kinda get lost in the back and forth..anybody wanna help? Thanks!

CaptNRetro
This is a very complicated case, You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you's. And, uh, lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder's head. Luckily I'm adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug regimen to keep my mind, you know, limber.

#582 58 days ago

What are the chances this game goes back into production???

#583 58 days ago
Quoted from whitey:

What are the chances this game goes back into production???

None

#584 58 days ago

You can always email and call ARA direct

Apparatenfabriek ARA bv

Ir. Leen Pieter de Jong
Former Director

Tweede Broekdijk 6, 7122LB Aalten
Postbus 64, 7120AB Aalten

P +31 543 47 25 01
M +31 6 5317 2134
lp.dejong@ara-aalten.nl

#585 57 days ago

the latest was the judge asked ARA and DP to try to work out their differences again else a final verdict will be made. no timelines for all that made public to date.

#586 57 days ago

At this rate I can “acquire” one of every game with a scandalous story behind it and open my own museum.

#587 57 days ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

the latest was the judge asked ARA and DP to try to work out their differences again else a final verdict will be made. no timelines for all that made public to date.

which is pretty much de facto in civil suits... court says "try to work it out" first.

#588 57 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

which is pretty much de facto in civil suits... court says "try to work it out" first.

True, though it may be more "default-o" than "de facto."

#589 57 days ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

the latest was the judge asked ARA and DP to try to work out their differences again else a final verdict will be made. no timelines for all that made public to date.

That is what DP is telling us. We have no way to know for sure. They have lied in the past.

#590 57 days ago

That’s Funny ! Glad I got my deposit back

#591 57 days ago
Quoted from whitey:

That’s Funny ! Glad I got my deposit back

Deposits were refundable. 180 or so of us paid in full and only 40 or so ever got a machine!

-1
#592 55 days ago
Quoted from CaptNRetro:

I'm working on a youtube series about Rare, Lost or Prototype pins (games that either started as something else or never saw the light of day)..can someone give me a decent run-down of the situation as it stands? DP is still dealing with court issues and the game has not made it's way to most of the customers with pre orders? am I correct in that assumption? I see one for sale right now on here for 21.5k...how many actually made it out to the public? I've been reading through the forums, but would love someone to help me timeline the overall story..pretty deep forum posts, I kinda get lost in the back and forth..anybody wanna help? Thanks!

Off topic here, but where do I need to subscribe to get info once these get released? Very interested!

Never mind, found it: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCybzjh5dGf5tgy75-GJFQ2w

#593 53 days ago

I don't see why a pinball with so much interest from collectors wouldn't be remade by someone.

When there is money to be made, legal wrangles tend to get solved.

-2
#594 53 days ago
Quoted from irobot:

I don't see why a pinball with so much interest from collectors wouldn't be remade by someone.
When there is money to be made, legal wrangles tend to get solved.

If you want one, they come up for sale on Pinside once in awhile, so buy one.

#595 53 days ago

I am very much looking forward to playing TBL at TPF...if they don't delay it again, that is!

Sorry. I hope that wasnt too soon.

#596 53 days ago

Why don’t they leverage Stern or JJP as a contract manufacturer to produce their game?

#597 53 days ago
Quoted from tacshose:

If you want one, they come up for sale on Pinside once in awhile, so buy one.

Because were are not all rich. I'd love a big lebowski it's my dream theme. I have big lebowski shirts and merch, I even have a big lebowski duvet cover on my bed but that doesn't mean I have 20k plus to spend on a single pinball machine. That's half a years net salary to me, more then I've ever spent on a car.

Especially when there isnt any support for the game or spare parts being made.

#598 53 days ago
Quoted from irobot:

I don't see why a pinball with so much interest from collectors wouldn't be remade by someone.
When there is money to be made, legal wrangles tend to get solved.

Well, you never know. I can think of some themes that have been done 'again' and were better for it. Kiss and POTC for starters.

If I had a magic wand, I would want someone else to have the project anyway. ARA doesn't want it and DP can't do it for various reasons.

#599 53 days ago

Does anyone know the estimated number of customers who are paid in full and still waiting to receive their game?

#600 52 days ago
Quoted from holminone:

Why don’t they leverage Stern or JJP as a contract manufacturer to produce their game?

Bankrupt companies have zero leverage.

And why would Stern or JJP want anything to do with this shit show? WHy would they want to risk doing business with a company with no money, hundreds of pissed off customers, hundreds of thousands (millions?) of dollars in liabilities, and a terrible record of ripping people off?

That's before you even get to the logistics of producing a homemade amateur game that a real pinball company would need to re-engineer to be reliable and work with their line.

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