(Topic ID: 184739)

Class Action Lawsuit for TBL? The Big Lebowski / Dutch Pinball


By Davidus56

2 years ago



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3 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #70 Link to Dutch Authority for Consumers and Markets Posted by Damon (2 years ago)

Post #105 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by RTR (2 years ago)


Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

There are 611 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 13.
29
#1 2 years ago

Is everyone as angry as I am over TBL? Dutch pinball has the audacity to come to TPF with a new game concept even though they have indefinitely delayed delivery of TBL to those of us who have given them hefty deposits. In my case, a $4,500 deposit 2 years ago. Others have paid full price and have nothing to show. I would really have liked to get a TBL, but at this point I will settle for getting my deposit back.

Who do we contact to get a refund? If no refund is forthcoming, who would like to join me in a class action lawsuit? I would probably join ARA in this lawsuit. I have a collection of over 50 pinballs, so filing a lawsuit for me is not a significant financial challenge. I hate getting scammed and have no trouble seeking justice.

32
#2 2 years ago

Wait a second... people actually gave money blindly to an unproven company for a product that didn't yet exist?

20
#3 2 years ago

What about TBLr that is supposed to be coming out?

#4 2 years ago

Please change the title to include DUTCH PINBALL/Lebowski to get attention from other buyers.

I just sent Jaap my "refund or else" email.

If he doesn't refund me, I'm in on any and all legal action.

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from NightTrain:

Wait a second... people actually gave money blindly to an unproven company for a product that didn't yet exist?

My thoughts exactly!

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Please change the title to include DUTCH PINBALL/Lebowski to get attention from other buyers.
I just sent Jaap my "refund or else" email.
If he doesn't refund me, I'm in on any and all legal action.

i did the same, suggest everyone does. I called my lawyer today but havent heard back, thinking about calling an international law firm monday morning to discuss the situation with them and have some light shed on potential options. Rarehero also mentioned calling Universal and Bally which i think is a really good idea, if enough of us call it could add some much needed pressure. Im thinking a good place to start for early achievers wanting refunds is email barry/jaap/dp asking for a formal refund and then pm me your name and ill start to put together a list for the lawyers to get an idea of how many people we got who have asked for refunds and been told no/not given them

#7 2 years ago

For some reason I do not think getting into a class action suit like this will help the matter forward. Chances of your machines ever being released by ARA will only get slimmer if DP needs to fight off two parties at the same time.

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

For some reason I do not think getting into a class action suit like this will help the matter forward. Chances of your machines ever being released by ARA will only get slimmer if DP needs to fight off two parties at the same time.

I want proof of DP's lawyer's existence & some proof that they've started legal proceedings. We don't even know if they really ARE having a legal battle with ARA. For all we know, they just flat out haven't paid them.

12
#9 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I want proof of DP's lawyer's existence & some proof that they've started legal proceedings. We don't even know if they really ARE having a legal battle with ARA. For all we know, they just flat out haven't paid them.

100 percent this, everytime we fish, we find a lie. I just contacted VDL to get some insight into what exactly the nature of their relationship with DP is/whether or not they know about the customers currently waiting on TBLs paid in full with refunds refused/what the deal is with ARA/if TBL is exclusive to ARA. Hopefully theyll have some answers and not more questions.

Quoted from mgpasman:

For some reason I do not think getting into a class action suit like this will help the matter forward. Chances of your machines ever being released by ARA will only get slimmer if DP needs to fight off two parties at the same time.

This is the wrong attitude, weve given plenty of leeway, plenty of time. I think 3 years is more than enough "be cool" time. I think we need to face the fact that we will all likely never get our games unless Jaap and Barry magically transform into Gene Cunningham. This is similar to the victims of a ponzie scheme who blame the SEC or FEDS for "fucking it up for them." As if they wouldve gotten paid had the agency not stepped in to stop it. If its a ponzie scheme, youre gonna get fucked, and if not, nothing to worry about. If you have a better idea of what will, "help move this matter forward" please, by all means share, but i dont think its a good idea to sit around and wait, or to "trust" DP. The fact of the matter is theyre breaking the law by not giving us our refunds or our games. I didnt invest in a company, i bought a product.

#10 2 years ago

Posted in the Pre Order club but just wanted to quote this over for the sake of visiblity, i keep hearing this assertion that because the payments were considered non refundable once production started that we arent entitled to refunds. Maybe someone smarter than myself can chime in, but my basic understanding is that we 100% have the right to refunds based on both European Consumer Rights and United States Consumer Rights. As an American, i can tell you, i will fuck your shit up if you try to fuck with my rights.

Quoted from Damon:

you dont just get to make up arbitrary rules that violate the law. Im not sure about the Netherlands specifically but this is point 52 and 53 of the EU Consumer Rights Directive http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32011L0083&qid=1403274218893
52)
In the context of sales contracts, the delivery of goods can take place in various ways, either immediately or at a later date. If the parties have not agreed on a specific delivery date, the trader should deliver the goods as soon as possible, but in any event not later than 30 days from the day of the conclusion of the contract. The rules regarding late delivery should also take into account goods to be manufactured or acquired specially for the consumer which cannot be reused by the trader without considerable loss. Therefore, a rule which grants an additional reasonable period of time to the trader in certain circumstances should be provided for in this Directive. When the trader has failed to deliver the goods within the period of time agreed with the consumer, before the consumer can terminate the contract, the consumer should call upon the trader to make the delivery within a reasonable additional period of time and be entitled to terminate the contract if the trader fails to deliver the goods even within that additional period of time. However, this rule should not apply when the trader has refused to deliver the goods in an unequivocal statement. Neither should it apply in certain circumstances where the delivery period is essential such as, for example, in the case of a wedding dress which should be delivered before the wedding. Nor should it apply in circumstances where the consumer informs the trader that delivery on a specified date is essential. For this purpose, the consumer may use the trader’s contact details given in accordance with this Directive. In these specific cases, if the trader fails to deliver the goods on time, the consumer should be entitled to terminate the contract immediately after the expiry of the delivery period initially agreed. This Directive should be without prejudice to national provisions on the way the consumer should notify the trader of his will to terminate the contract.
(53)
In addition to the consumer’s right to terminate the contract where the trader has failed to fulfil his obligations to deliver the goods in accordance with this Directive, the consumer may, in accordance with the applicable national law, have recourse to other remedies, such as granting the trader an additional period of time for delivery, enforcing the performance of the contract, withholding payment, and seeking damages.

-23
#11 2 years ago

No refunds..Only hurting our chances of ever receiving the game at all. Try and stay cool, the only way out is forward.

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

No refunds..Only hurting our chances of ever receiving the game at all. Try and stay cool, the only way out is forward.

It saddens me that when i read this I immediately thought of the Skit-B/Predator thread. It makes me think of how different the hobby is from even 4 or 5 years ago. I remember a lot of similar sentiment in that thread to the statement above but its important to remember that the truth wont effect a company that isnt lying. We shouldnt be blaming each other, we need to rally as a community and demand basic rights from the people within our community. If we dont, who will? Why no refunds? If they have the money and a billion dollar contract manufacturing partner whats the problem? Its my legal right to a refund and they wont even pay me the courtesy of telling me WHY no refunds. Just no refunds and Im supposed to accept it and "be cool" after 3 years? I dont think I can do that. I cant think of another pinball manufacturer other than JPoP and Skit-B and DP who have had an extended lack of communication, followed by a multi year delay in manufacturing and then stated no refunds would be given. I think weve all tried really hard to give Barry and Jaap the benefit of the doubt, we all trusted them and sent them our hard earned money. We all accepted the delays and missteps, encouraging them along this whole path. I think its time they trust us to and allow us to leave our money in if we believe in them as a company or take it out if we dont.

30
#13 2 years ago

Reputable companies don't ask for $1000s of cash up front for a product that only exists on paper. Once the product exists and is working a deposit is not unreasonable. JJP and Stern have been putting out a product that more or less works, other "fly-by-night" companies have little or no track record, why would you hand over thousands of $$ to them? What you are doing is financing a start up that may ultimately fail, which means you are out of your $$ with nothing to show for. So quit giving your hard earned money to companies of questionable pedigree.

#14 2 years ago

I would specifically engage with a dutch lawyer, or a legal house with local dutch lawyers. Dutch law is particularly obscure.

#15 2 years ago

Same in my industry (if you want to call it that....).

There are plenty of companies who can not get a loan from a bank or already blew through the loan that they got.
Hence they will make their customers their bank.

Crowdfunding, only that most of the risk lies with the unsuspecting customer. Screw that.

ONLY works with toy as us guys, who otherwise are mature and for the most part wise about our spending and risk assessment, throw all common sense out the window when it comes to our toys....

-1
#16 2 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

My thoughts exactly!

Hey man, i think this thread is talking about a serious issue...your comment is not.

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

For some reason I do not think getting into a class action suit like this will help the matter forward. Chances of your machines ever being released by ARA will only get slimmer if DP needs to fight off two parties at the same time.

Except i'm wrong, the only communication is there is a dispute between DP and ARA that involves the production delayed.

And SO????

#18 2 years ago

Getting universal involved will only end in the licence being revoked.. or more pressure in which DP will likely fold.

It's not a good situation at all.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from Yoski:

Reputable companies don't ask for $1000s of cash up front for a product that only exists on paper. Once the product exists and is working a deposit is not unreasonable. JJP and Stern have been putting out a product that more or less works, other "fly-by-night" companies have little or no track record, why would you hand over thousands of $$ to them? What you are doing is financing a start up that may ultimately fail, which means you are out of your $$ with nothing to show for. So quit giving your hard earned money to companies of questionable pedigree.

Some car companies ask for hundreds of thousands of dollars for a planned hyper car. But those companies have assets so they are not going to drop the ball. An upstart company like Skit-B or DP has no assets.

I assume you were referring to regular companies, anyway this is why Wooly never got off the ground, no one wanted to pay for the machine to be build and worry if it might not. But I think some people fell in love with the theme of TBL and had to have it. I am not sure if there was a threat of a limited number that's often a key factor that drives some people to send in money. if they were going to be made like Woz (unlimited) people should have just waited and paid when they were shipping.

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

Hey man, i think this thread is talking about a serious issue...your comment is not.

Lol why don't you tell that to the person who was talking about how stupid it is to give thousands of dollars to a new pinball company that has yet to produce a single game? I only agreed with him. SMH!

#21 2 years ago

It's odd that people think validating the license could cause things to crash down.

I believe that is referred to as a house of cards, and it typically doesn't stand much of a chance no matter what event knocks it down.

#22 2 years ago

I haven't been up on this game but I thought these were shipping? I know of one that is about 40 miles from me for about the past 6 or 9 months. Did they drop the ball?

29
#23 2 years ago

(Moderation mode on)
This is not the place to inform TBL achievers how dumb you think they were sending $ to Dutch Pinball.
Enough drama here, no need to rub their wounds.
This thread is about whether a class action makes sense or not - keep it on topic please.
Other DP/TBL related matters can be discussed in the main thread.
(moderation mode off)

Stupid legal question: do class actions exist in Holland? In France they can only be started by a consumers' organization (not by a group of individuals).

#24 2 years ago

From reading Pinside, I believe the story is that the production was outsourced to another company that tried to jack up the production price and a fight ensued. One can take a guess that the production company wasn't happy with their margins.

#25 2 years ago

Realistically, prepayment is how some of the companies have managed to get their start. You have to have capital to work with. Even Jack took prepayment on WOZ as I recall. There is risk the companies flame out though, just like kickstarter companies.

#26 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

No refunds..Only hurting our chances of ever receiving the game at all. Try and stay cool, the only way out is forward.

How much longer do you think is appropriate to wait?

Another week?
Another month?
Another six months?
Another year?
Another two years?
Another three years?
Five additional years from today?
Or?

#27 2 years ago

I sat in on the update at tpf yesterday , Jaap stated that there are 40 machines boxed and ready to go at the manufacturers facility, and they have another 80 machines worth of parts, maybe the suit or legalities should start with the mfg on getting things settled so the games can be freed for release, I know jaap hasn't paid, and he has reason for the sake of the mfg hiking the prices up over and over, but it seems that maybe Jaap might need some assistance on dealing with the mfg to make everyone happy and get games rolling out and be done with it

#28 2 years ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

I sat in on the update at tpf yesterday , Jaap stated that there are 40 machines boxed and ready to go at the manufacturers facility, and they have another 80 machines worth of parts, maybe the suit or legalities should start with the mfg on getting things settled so the games can be freed for release, I know jaap hasn't paid, and he has reason for the sake of the mfg hiking the prices up over and over, but it seems that maybe Jaap might need some assistance on dealing with the mfg to make everyone happy and get games rolling out and be done with it

How many have been delivered? I'm at the back of the line at 190 and I'm wondering if there are parts for my machine at ARA or if they haven't been ordered for back of the line Early Achievers.

#29 2 years ago
Quoted from Hoss_Coog:

How many have been delivered? I'm at the back of the line at 190 and I'm wondering if there are parts for my machine at ARA or if they haven't been ordered for back of the line Early Achievers.

Based on the statement by Chosen_S, any game beyond #170 (give or take) is very questionable at this point.

#30 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

No refunds..Only hurting our chances of ever receiving the game at all. Try and stay cool, the only way out is forward.

Actually, I think refunds will benefit the project in the long run. Why? First, it will shut up those of us who are super f'ing over it. Second, it shows that DP has cash which would give confidence to buyers who want to stay in & figure customers.

By not acknowledging their customers with refunds, there kind of proving us right that this is just a money issue and everything else is bullshit. Prove us wrong. By issuing refunds to those who want them, it lends credibility to their ARA story & gets rid of a lot of negativity.

#31 2 years ago

I don't see the value in contacting Universal. FWIW - here are my posts on options from the other thread:

Better Options Part 1
Any better options out there need to start with Jaap and Barry washing down a truth pill with a big glass of truth serum while bathing in a truth fountain and getting a truth enema.

We don't know if ARA broke the contact. We don't know if there is a big unpaid bill at ARA, if DP is out of money (I suspect this is the case, but how bad is it?), we have no idea what the Universal contract looks like, and we sure as hell don't know if DP is even suing ARA or the other way around. So what if they sign a new contract with a new manufacturer? It means NOTHING. You just can't believe anything Jaap says now.

So any possible solutions would need to begin with a trusted 3rd party, preferably someone in the pinball community with an accounting and/or legal background to review DP's books and contracts and then reporting back. Sort of a legal/accounting version of their "Roger Sharpe" moment.

-6
#32 2 years ago
Quoted from NightTrain:

Wait a second... people actually gave money blindly to an unproven company for a product that didn't yet exist?

Idiots.

#33 2 years ago

Better Options - Part 2

So, assuming DP decides to have a third party come in and verify things for the Early Aggrieved (have to keep a little sense of humor), there could be a couple of options:

Option 1 - Cough up an extra $1000, get the production line rolling again, and receive your game. I am not even sure this is a real option and I would never send a damn dime unless they went through with Part 1.

Option 2 - The findings in Part 1 show that $1000 won't help, but there are enough assets in the company (hostage games, unused parts, BOP project, IP) that another company could purchase DP's assets and make enough money on the unbuilt games to make it worth their while. It gets DP out of the picture and gets a game (that by all accounts, is pretty awesome) into the hands of a real pinball manufacturer. PPS could do it.

#34 2 years ago

Thanks for the contribution to the discussion! You seem chock full of insight and wisdom. Care to discuss quantum physics?

#35 2 years ago

My thoughts on options also include the following:

There is likely no money to get. Those of you that want to sue, contact Universal, or get a forced refund are likely to wind up with an attorney bill and a pound of flesh.

This pinball scandal differs from the worst pinball scandals in that DP has at least delivered a number of machines (60?) and has parts on hand for what appears to be 80ish more. So there is actually a chance this results in pinball machines delivered if handled correctly.

-7
#36 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

I don't see the value in contacting Universal

Here's the value: if it's such a bad thing to do, refund those of us who want refunds and I won't do it. My game and money is held hostage. This is my hostage negotiation tactic.

I'm not trying to fuck things up, but I believe nothing Dutch says and want to see if I can get REAL information about the situation from a vested party who we haven't heard from. I live close to Universal. My plan isn't to send them an angry rage email. My plan is to introduce myself and request a meeting & see if anything comes of it. I think something face to face could be beneficial.

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Here's the value: if it's such a bad thing to do, refund those of us who want refunds and I won't do it. My game and money is held hostage. This is my hostage negotiation tactic.
I'm not trying to fuck things up, but I believe nothing Dutch says and want to see if I can get REAL information about the situation from a vested party who we haven't heard from. I live close to Universal. My plan isn't to send them an angry rage email. My plan is to introduce myself and request a meeting & see if anything comes of it. I think something face to face could be beneficial.

Going solo and threatening to burn the house down if you personally don't get your money back isn't my idea of a great plan Greg. But if that's what you want to do, go for it. It only fucks things up and you know that.

#38 2 years ago

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

#39 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Actually, I think refunds will benefit the project in the long run. Why? First, it will shut up those of us who are super f'ing over it. Second, it shows that DP has cash which would give confidence to buyers who want to stay in & figure customers.
By not acknowledging their customers with refunds, there kind of proving us right that this is just a money issue and everything else is bullshit. Prove us wrong. By issuing refunds to those who want them, it lends credibility to their ARA story & gets rid of a lot of negativity.

Quite right, didn't see eye to eye with Jjp endless wait so refund was prompt and no fuss whatsoever, would deal with them again.

#40 2 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Quite right, didn't see eye to eye with Jjp endless wait so refund was prompt and no fuss whatsoever, would deal with them again.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against refunds! I just don't believe they have the money for it and I am against threatening to fuck with their business partners to get even with them or force their hand.

Hell, if they have the money, refund away like crazy! They might be able to make a grand or so on the refunded 8500 if they ever get the assembly line going again.

#41 2 years ago

http://web.archive.org/web/20140302175550/http://www.thebiglebowskipinball.com/faq

The original terms state that refunds are available,
Can one still work with their credit card company to dispute the charge?

Good luck to all parties

#42 2 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Quite right, didn't see eye to eye with Jjp endless wait so refund was prompt and no fuss whatsoever, would deal with them again.

Yup. I was in on WOZ and Jack promptly refunded me. I bought my MMr through Jack and even when I was complaining about the delay, they treated me with respect and walked me back from the ledge a few times. I now have a Hobbit, which I bought 2nd hand - but Jack has called me personally and helped me out when I had some issues. JJP is a class act and Dutch could learn some lessons. Sometimes losing money short term brings you gains long term. Reputation = $$$

13
#43 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

Going solo and threatening to burn the house down if you personally don't get your money back isn't my idea of a great plan Greg. But if that's what you want to do, go for it. It only fucks things up and you know that.

Again, not trying to burn it down. Jaap & Barry have burnt it down. It's burnt. I'm just trying to get to the truth, and we can't expect that from Dutch Pinball at this point. Texas should have been an apology tour with an action plan. We saw them try to Ponzi scheme us. That's on them. I didn't do that.

#44 2 years ago
Quoted from Join_The_Cirqus:

http://web.archive.org/web/20140302175550/http://www.thebiglebowskipinball.com/faq
The original terms state that refunds are available,
Can one still work with their credit card company to dispute the charge?
Good luck to all parties

IMG_1594 (resized).PNG

#45 2 years ago

I was amazed at the concept,that,given the world situation,folks would buck the financial aspect most of Europe is in with the Euro!! Any ruse to pool American dollars is put forth,and they receive all your Money!!You have to be wary of these CO.in France(Pinsound)or especially ,Germany!( Mylar protectors)

10
#46 2 years ago

I predict DP will be out of business by the end of the year if they carry on the current direction.

The best thing they can do, is to cough up the extra money to ARA and get the pins that are made shipped and take one for the team and mark it up to experience. The ones that haven't been built they should offer a refund or a revised position that its going to take some time to get those games made. Focus on TBL and getting the issues sorted first rather than launch BoP25. its the only way to recover the abysmal low trust situation that they have created. Get a lawyer in parallel to go after ARA and if they recover anything then its a bonus. They must have money to be considering building BOP25.

If I was in this situation I'd be taking rarehero approach, nothing to lose in doing so.

As I understand Dutch law I'd be looking at how to file for an order to have DP wound up.

#47 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Again, not trying to burn it down. Jaap & Barry have burnt it down. It's burnt. I'm just trying to get to the truth, and we can't expect that from Dutch Pinball at this point. Texas should have been an apology tour with an action plan. We saw them try to Ponzi scheme us. That's on them. I didn't do that.

I agree that they have done their damndest to burn it down themselves. Just because you aren't trying to burn what's left down (100 or so Early Aggrieved games paid in full, including mine, and with parts mostly present) doesn't mean that you won't burn what's left down by going rogue/solo.

If there were any kind of action I could get behind that isn't in my previous two posts (3rd party review, sale of DP, audited price tag for an additional payment to rescue game, etc) it would be staying together and all of us suing DP directly.

I am all for refunds, by the way. It was the sole way that JJP kept their rep together during a trying time for their company. And I rode that one out. Heck, if DP had enough money to build 50 BOP SLE's last year, a few refunds should be nothing to them! But I believe that to be bullshit.

#48 2 years ago

I certainly would never suggest "Dont" contact Universal Studios, but in chatting with my Brother,
A former Universal Attorney, his answer was simply, "Good Luck".....not in a good way.

I would hope as the next few days go by, some answers or direction that would be of help, for the anguish
being felt over the situation.

Its definitely a tricky situation, and as usual its brought on by Money, and attempts to get fixed by money.

What I mean, is if we look down the road, and legal action seems needed, it might cost $500-$1000 per person to pursue, with unsure results, where that same amount in an honest open effort with Dutch, could resolve in the games going out....

Whats best? $1000 to an attorney, with unknown answers, or DP communicating with its customers, and finding answers of reason and compromise, before attorneys take whatever is needed to force a result?

I dont know? just thoughts...IMO.....

#49 2 years ago

All they have to do is to go into bankruptcy! Poof-its all over! What inventory that might have,will go to pay bills first! You-last!!

#50 2 years ago
Quoted from hawkmoon:

All they have to do is to go into bankruptcy! Poof-its all over! What inventory that might have,will go to pay bills first! You-last!!

I think thats a dead cert..

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