(Topic ID: 107890)

Chinese knock-offs could derail pinball comeback


By SuperPinball

4 years ago



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  • 293 posts
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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Chrisbee
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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    There are 293 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 6.
    #251 4 years ago

    I am going to start collecting fake guitars. How do I begin?

    I already collect fake vintage skateboards which I enjoy more than collectors of real vintage skateboards because the shit I get is new, perfect & dirt cheap.

    #252 4 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Probably more so with acoustic instruments, like where a pinetop has a totally different sound than an Ash top. Electric instruments of course have different woods with different tones, but the differences are much smaller.

    The wood itself is not fake, just the finishes are aged.
    Wood is already 100s of years old, and luthiers have been carefully drying wood for 1000 years - an art in itself no doubt.

    I heard a story that the main reason Leo Fender sold out to CBS was that his stash of perfectly aged wood had run out. So once he didn't have the super choice wood to make his instruments anymore - the wood that made them play and sound the way they did - he was done. Makes sense to me. Just because the "right" wood is aged doesn't make it special. Fender had really special wood, which is what made his instruments what they were. I like to believe that anyway. Nothing special at all about most instruments these days, IMO. At least the mainstream ones.

    #253 4 years ago
    Quoted from PW79:

    I am going to start collecting fake guitars. How do I begin?
    I already collect fake vintage skateboards which I enjoy more than collectors of real vintage skateboards because the shit I get is new, perfect & dirt cheap.

    See, this is how I hoped to achieve owning a Medieval Madness Re-make until I woke up. It ticked all the boxes until I got to the dirt cheap part.....

    It seems nobody can pump out a big wooden box with 20 year old technology at cheap prices.

    #254 4 years ago
    Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

    I heard a story that the main reason Leo Fender sold out to CBS was that his stash of perfectly aged wood had run out. So once he didn't have the super choice wood to make his instruments anymore - the wood that made them play and sound the way they did - he was done. Makes sense to me.

    That's a great story!

    But the truth is that Leo sold Fender for more than the NY Yankees sold for at the time. He had an incurable sinus infection and was rather ill. A year or so latter, a different team of doctors actually cured Leo.

    The moment the non-compete clause in his CBS contract was over in the 70s, Leo had his legendary MusicMan company making guitars (he was a secret partner until the CBS contract expired), and in the late 70s he started G&L guitars (much nicer woods than Fender, better pickups and better tremlo system ).

    GL010.jpg
    #255 4 years ago

    6 pages later and I am still shocked at pinsides level of reading comprehension.

    I am out for the bait and switch sale of a newer bingo machine. You guys can argue about China...

    #256 4 years ago

    Good luck with a chinese pinball machine, took delivery today of a container of granite tiles for my parents house,ordered 15 mm thick got tiles 12mm thick to 20mm thick.

    Imo chinese stuff if not made by a multinational is junk.

    2 weeks later
    #257 4 years ago

    Chinese made arcade machines are typically not worth a darn and really badly made. I speak from experience. Steer clear.

    I wouldn't worry about the chinese doing pinballs. The Alibaba website usually has very broad,vague descriptions of we can make anything you want, which they will of course.

    I don't their pinballs would turn out very realiable.

    1 week later
    #258 4 years ago
    Quoted from Mrjamma:

    Chinese made arcade machines are typically not worth a darn and really badly made. I speak from experience. Steer clear

    Chances are many of the components and replacement parts are made in China. Not sure what made in China pinball machine that you have experience with.

    #259 4 years ago

    Yes.... this Chinese stuff is all shit!!!

    Im holding out an iphone built is good 'ol Detroit! You know, where they are known for quality.... Also on a waiting list for an Ipad and a plasma tv....

    any idea on leadtimes?

    Yessiree, none of that Asian stuff for me!

    #260 4 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    Yes.... this Chinese stuff is all shit!!!
    Im holding out an iphone built is good 'ol Detroit! You know, where they are known for quality.... Also on a waiting list for an Ipad and a plasma tv....
    any idea on leadtimes?
    Yessiree, none of that Asian stuff for me!

    lol
    I still can't believe people actually question if the Chinese can make a decent product. They can send a man into space but cant make a pinball machine?

    #261 4 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    Yes.... this Chinese stuff is all shit!!!
    Im holding out an iphone built is good 'ol Detroit! You know, where they are known for quality.... Also on a waiting list for an Ipad and a plasma tv....
    any idea on leadtimes?
    Yessiree, none of that Asian stuff for me!

    Watches, Bicycles and more are now being crafted in the D...

    Shinola Clock.png
    #262 4 years ago

    Once again people can you realise that foreign companies in china can make decent products, but if you were to buy a Lucky Golden Tigers brand ipod equivalent, good luck with that....

    #263 4 years ago

    Made_in_china.jpg

    i have some old Klipsch speakers, well fairly old around circa 1996.... still had the made in USA stamp on them back then..... not anymore. oh but im told made to "strict klipsch specifications" ok.

    #264 4 years ago

    made-in-china.jpg

    #265 4 years ago

    vid1900, the "experts" often don't have a clue, as you have learned. I don't know guitars, but I grew up around craftsman who were often hired for restoration work for museums. The craftsman also made new work for sale that was "antiqued" for sale to fit in with other old furniture already in a collector's home.

    What became very obvious from the stories they told was the "expert" collectors don't have a clue how things are really made. Most would not know what end of the hammer to hold if they needed to hit in a nail. The experts would come with all of these crazy stories about how something was made with all of these "mystical" techniques from the days of yore. Techniques that must have been lost to the ages and could never be duplicated again. It was all bullshit sizzle to try and talk up old stuff to crazy prices.

    The stories of faked antique furniture where common place, with experts swooning over it and someone would take it apart and see new factory made nails were used and the whole thing was a fake, probably made up from some old wood from taken from a building or old junked furniture so the wood would be the right age and type.

    The issue of fakes seems to come up with frequency in the fine art world, paintings knocked off by skilled artists who use old frames, canvases and only use paint available at that time period. I think 60 minutes had one of the more famous forgers on a while ago. The volume of work he generated was huge and the claim is many of his pieces are still floating around as legitimate works.

    #266 4 years ago
    Quoted from SuperPinball:

    I pre ordered a Medieval Madness LE for $8000 US. I sure that if that if it were made in China it would cost half that and have the same quality. My wife still isn't speaking to me since I ordered the pin.

    If you think it would be the same quality, you're dreaming. There are very few Chinese consumer products that are the same quality. From appliances to trinkets, there are widespread problems. Unless a corporate giant (and neither Stern or JJP would qualify) like Apple, LG, or Samsung is holding a gun to their heads (figuratively), the attitude is largely to crank out product, regardless of quality, defects, etc. They want the cash in hand, and that's the end of the story. I just bought a heavy bag stand made in China, and it was impossible to assemble because holes had not been drilled into the metal supports. I make some merchandise in China, and the prevailing attitude is that unless they are afraid of losing your business, they just don't give a crap. In my case, I'm a licensee of a large entertainment company, so the are afraid of getting a bad rep. But that's the only thing keeping them from screwing me on a regular basis. This doesn't mean they aren't capable of producing a quality machine, it's just that they probably won't.

    #267 4 years ago

    China will make any product to any quality standard you are willing to pay for.

    Tube amps and high end stereo equipment? Check.

    Phones, computers, tablets? Check.

    Optics and eyepieces for high end telescopes? Check.

    Great plywood? Check.

    $3500 high end refrigerators? Check.

    When you get something crappy from China, it's because the company importing it only wanted a crappy product.

    -

    Japan used to have the same reputation. "Made in Japan" used to be slang for crappy quality.

    #268 4 years ago
    Quoted from SuperPinball:

    If people were generally willing to pay 15%-20% more for U.S. made goods I don't think Walmart would be a prominent as it is today. The fact that Walmart is China's second largest trading partner proves that the majority of people will drop patriotism for savings. Therefore a Chinese manufactured pinball machine could potentially be accepted with the same enthusiasm.

    You think the tail is wagging the dog. The consumer isn't demanding the lower prices (of course, they don't mind, though). The reality is that Walmart and Target and other large retailers have pretty much coerced manufacturers to move production to China just so they can offer lower prices . About 10 years ago, there was an interesting Frontline or 60 minutes episode in which a US congressman called Walmart an agency of the Chinese gov't. When faced with the overwhelming inability to buy American made products, the consumer becomes resigned to buying cheaper overseas product.

    #269 4 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    China will make any product to any quality standard you are willing to pay for.
    Tube amps and high end stereo equipment? Check.
    Phones, computers, tablets? Check.
    Optics and eyepieces for high end telescopes? Check.
    Great plywood? Check.
    $3500 high end refrigerators? Check.
    When you get something crappy from China, it's because the company importing it only wanted a crappy product.
    -
    Japan used to have the same reputation. "Made in Japan" used to be slang for crappy quality.

    I partially agree with this. Like I said, they can build quality. It's just that they often don't, and it's not just a matter of how much you pay. The horror stories I hear in my industry are unreal.

    The Japan reputation, however, is sadly different and, i believe, was a product of bigotry. No one could imagine they produced quality merchandise as good as US products when, in fact, they almost always did. Everything Japan produced in the 60s and 70s, when this attitude was prevalent, was generally quality product, from toys to high-end electronics, to cars. This differs from what China produces, when looked at as a whole.

    #270 4 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    China will make any product to any quality standard you are willing to pay for.
    Tube amps and high end stereo equipment? Check.
    Phones, computers, tablets? Check.
    Optics and eyepieces for high end telescopes? Check.
    Great plywood? Check.
    $3500 high end refrigerators? Check.
    When you get something crappy from China, it's because the company importing it only wanted a crappy product.
    -
    Japan used to have the same reputation. "Made in Japan" used to be slang for crappy quality.

    We all know it's really because caucasians are just too damn tall.

    #271 4 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    We all know it's really because caucasians are just too damn tall.
    » YouTube video

    That is friggin hilarious!

    #272 4 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    China will make any product to any quality standard you are willing to pay for.
    Tube amps and high end stereo equipment? Check.
    Phones, computers, tablets? Check.
    Optics and eyepieces for high end telescopes? Check.
    Great plywood? Check.
    $3500 high end refrigerators? Check.
    When you get something crappy from China, it's because the company importing it only wanted a crappy product.
    -
    Japan used to have the same reputation. "Made in Japan" used to be slang for crappy quality.

    some things i guess, my kids 6 month old samsung 4s stopped working ( well it would power on and off every 5-6 seconds) and i took it apart and it was full of really fine pieces of animal hair.

    Post edited by ls1chris: spelling

    #273 4 years ago

    Most of the time its the American companies that dictate the budget that the Chinese factories have to work with. Nike tells them that they have $15/ pair and that is what the Chinese deliver. The same holds true for all companies and you would be surprised how little they give the Chinese to work with. Give them the tools and they can make amazing things just as good as anyone else.

    1 week later
    #274 4 years ago

    China is gonna mess up pinball with their knockoffs.My friend bought a pinball and once it got to his house, it was a big hunk of plastic.

    #275 4 years ago

    It all depends who owns the factory. Big name companies all have their stuff made in china. But designed elsewhere. If it weren't for places like china,Mexico,India. Everything would more expensive.

    It's the knockoffs or no name brand stuff that is junk. Those companies are pure Chinese looking to make money. Cheap materials and poor quality control.

    #276 4 years ago
    Quoted from pinballophobe:

    It all depends who owns the factory. Big name companies all have their stuff made in china. But designed elsewhere. If it weren't for places like china,Mexico,India. Everything would more expensive.
    It's the knockoffs or no name brand stuff that is junk. Those companies are pure Chinese looking to make money. Cheap materials and poor quality control.

    Then maybe it's a good thing if big companies make their pins in china just like all other electronics so pins can be cheaper and would attract more people to the hobby.

    #277 4 years ago
    Quoted from SuperPinball:

    Then maybe it's a good thing if big companies make their pins in china just like all other electronics so pins can be cheaper and would attract more people to the hobby.

    It's a nice dream, but regardless of where they are made, I think pinball machines will never be cheaper than around the $5000 mark as we're in a new golden age of pinball where people are ravenous for new games. People are paying $8000 for a re-make of an old machine, so pinball companies don't see the need to discount.

    #278 4 years ago

    They'd probably offset most savings by putting more things in the machines

    #279 4 years ago

    Their labour costs are much lower and pinball manufacturing is so labour intensive that China has a definite advantage. Maybe it will translate to quality lower cost pins. Consumers will win but the North American manufacturers will lose.

    TILTed post. Sign in to be able to view TILTed posts.
    #281 4 years ago

    When the U.S. allowed China to enter the world trade organization President Clinton's intention was to open the billion plus people in China to American made goods. No one in the U.S.(except me ) ever considered that U.S. companies would close their shops, reopen in China and sell their goods back to the U.S. The result was the closure of 5000 factories per year and an ever increasing annual trade deficit ever since. This same scenario is hitting Canada as well as many of the European Union Countries. I don't understand how governments allow that to happen year after year.The incredible national debt is just one symptom. The real answer is to tax foreign made goods to the point that U.S. goods have an advantage. This would be wildly unpopular with other high manufacturing nations such as China but in the end will stop the hemorrhage of wealth. My fear is that it may be too late.

    #282 4 years ago

    It will swing back, we lost a lot of manufacturing to China in Australia, but our dollar has just dropped making imports more expensive, as well companies are sick of quality issues that wipe out the initial savings.

    As well China will not get cheaper only dearer to manufacture in.

    PS Merry Christmas

    #283 4 years ago

    SuperPinball I have my doubts, as DC gave corporate welfare to enable companies to move, and hillary jumping aboard Walmarts board of directors, sure indicators to deviate inside information-positioning tocapitalize at our collective expense. there are so many details (and so called plausible deniability) that it is very difficult to keep an eye on the larger picture, the results of the orchestrated smaller acts.
    it sure isnt just the USA as you point out, "they" are doing it globally, is a fact.

    yep.. political and beyond the realm of this interest specific site!

    meantime.. back to China, I think it'd be great if a company there were to flat-pack virtual pinball machines with a healthy tablet pc, couple flat screen tv's, with the shipping container being the cabinet for the legs and everything else. far more economically feasible, no threat to REAL pinball. . roughly the equivalent of shipping something barely larger than a zizzle. it just makes more sense, they make -everything- something like that would need already, its just packaging.

    #284 4 years ago

    Interesting Doc on the subject.

    #285 4 years ago
    Quoted from zizzlemeplease:

    yep.. political and beyond the realm of this interest specific site!

    Please just stop. There's a reason we don't discuss politics here.

    #286 4 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Please just stop. There's a reason we don't discuss politics here.

    Not discussing an issue will not make the problem go away unfortunately. Sometimes an open discussion is necessary to effect change. If we chose to ignore what is happening, Chinese manufactured pins will be inevitable.

    #287 4 years ago

    I'd buy a Chinese kit or pin just to see how they are making them and what they are making them with.

    #288 4 years ago
    Quoted from SuperPinball:

    Not discussing an issue will not make the problem go away unfortunately. Sometimes an open discussion is necessary to effect change. If we chose to ignore what is happening, Chinese manufactured pins will be inevitable.

    I'm talking about the bullshit "Hillary is a felon" talking points, that kind of politics. Discuss China all you want, it's topical. There's no need to insert the other politics into the discussion.

    #289 4 years ago

    cool trailer about the documentary, mentions guvvy as the problem at least, and I hope it possible to turn it back around soon the right way, not MIC methods. as for this thread topic, if there's demand to be met, innovation happens. Spooky is a pretty good example, if a part fails and can be 3D print replaced.. maybe we'll be seeing really nice actual home designed pinball machines competing with the big manufacturers, could knock down prices while expanding a pinball comeback.. it'd derail some profits from the big guys and push them to build better. when controllers become available affordable and simple enough to use (or arduino+power interface for a tablet pc simplified?), we might start seeing plans parts (like wiring harnesses) and programs available, some shops getting set up to do for people who dont have printers, CNC routers, bending and welding toys etc.

    if theres demand, I dont know why China wouldnt try to meet it and make some money, but if theres more demand than that, people designing for what can be produced here at home (or even IN home) is going to make it rougher on them trying to build there then ship here for the sales. maybe I'm unrealistic or optimistic? it -could- happen, similarly to what is happening with virtual pinball.

    #290 4 years ago

    Aurich, it isnt bs talking points, I could list a bunch very easily, or let you look for yourself if you're interested, or dont if not is ok too. business is politics and politics is business more than we like sometimes. I agree this is a pinball interest site and forum, this thread does invite some national-international politics of course, you're not advocating censorship while saying "demonize China all you want" are ya? (yeah I'm kidding and serious both.) I think you're allright and not 100% always right either, God knows I'm not perfect so now I've introduced religion into it too (heaven forbid!).

    government policies regulations and taxes have had serious impact on manufacturing here, isnt something China is responsible for, and I'm sure not saying their cheap slave labor and unregulated pollution are good things (nor all the pollution related to transporting the goods). it's relative stuff, definitely no intent of being some kind of issue with you personally. I'm not into personal attack confrontation trolling or what, if you hate what I say sometimes, feel free to add me to an ignored user list.. but I do think you're allright and doing some cool stuff!

    #291 4 years ago
    Quoted from zizzlemeplease:

    Aurich, it isnt bs talking points, I could list a bunch very easily, or let you look for yourself if you're interested, or dont if not is ok too. business is politics and politics is business more than we like sometimes.

    Being a "felon" has a specific meaning, and since Hillary has never been convicted of a Felony it's a talking point, not a fact.

    Just like someone saying "war criminal Dick Cheney" is a talking point, and not a fact. You could think either deserve to be, make your case, but it has no bearing on the conversation at hand.

    It becomes name calling.

    Find a political forum and you can talk about why you think either one should be convicted, but those are side discussions that aren't on topic here. Politics just leads to fighting, let's keep it somewhere else so we can enjoy pinball without animosity.

    -1
    #292 4 years ago

    go to a thread not involving anything geopolitical where you wont feel a need to try to censor someone and call them names.

    "make your case" "find somewhere else to say it" hipocrit much? you do some cool things, but I dont this is one of them, I feel you are maybe trying to deliberately instigate. nevermind my effort to roll past it.. "hey lets do the copy-paste-twist". are ya bucking for "pinside legendary troll" today?

    people commit felonies, convicted or swept under a rug is another matter, doesnt mean the crime didnt happen. hillary was caught trying to hide paperwork from Watergate federal investigation when an intern, thats a felony. she paid 300k fine for felony violation of the Logan Act instead of 3 years minimum in a federal pen, is guilty. illegal campaign contributions swept under the rug, all just the tip of an iceberg. "BS talking point" essentially saying I'm full of it, isnt name calling when YOU do it, right? no animosity, its just BS talking points lmao

    #293 4 years ago

    Hi all, this thread has taken a turn away from Pinball and is now opinion about domestic politics.

    It’s not that the Moderating team disagree with you point of view, valid they are. However this is a forum based around pinball.

    So this thread is now closed.

    If you feel that this is unfair, we invite you to start a thread in the Moderators feedback section.
    Thanks.

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