(Topic ID: 274781)

Chicago Coin TV Baseball Freak Out (1966)


By Macca

41 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 248 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 19 hours ago by Macca
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    There are 248 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 5.
    #201 9 days ago

    Thank you for the info and pics.
    On the control bank, unsolder the daisy chained white wire from the last lug with the 2 white wires still attached. Just like you did on the cancel bank.
    For these resistance readings switch your meter to the diode setting (just to the right of the 200 setting) better accuracy for lower resistances. Meter might have an audible for a low resistance test.
    Connect a meter jumper to the double white, connect the other jumper to the double grey on the 1st shot relay coil. Take reading.
    Touch unsoldered white wire to jumper on white. Any reading change?
    Next remove jumper from double grey lug, unsolder the double grey wires and split apart.
    Track the grey wire coming from the game over relay switch to identify one grey wire from another.
    With meter jumper still on the double white, with the other jumper touch each grey wire and unsoldered coil lug individually and take reading on each.

    #202 9 days ago

    I unsoldered the white wire that was connected to the two double wires from the start relay. I touched them with the other alligator clips to the two gray wires on the 1st shot relay. I got a reading of 000.

    Putting the alligator clips on the white wire while still being on the double first shot wires I got a reading of 1 even if I alternated the alligator clips.

    I'm having a lot of trouble separating the two grey wires. Do you suggest I clip off the soldered part and expose the wires just a bit. I have enough where they would fit back on the lugs.

    We're heading out of the house soon so I would get to it later tonight.

    IMG_20200909_132205243.jpgIMG_20200909_132342460.jpg
    #203 9 days ago

    Yes you can clip off the twisted soldered wires.
    Expose a little of the wire on each.
    With wire jumper still on double white, test and take reading on each grey wire and lug.

    #204 9 days ago

    Sounds good, I'll do it later when I get home.

    #205 9 days ago

    The black alligator clip is on the two white wire start relay lug.

    The red alligator clip is touching one (1st shot) gray wire and I'm getting a reading of 0.

    The other gray wire is giving me a reading 1

    1st shot and game over lugs are giving me a reading of 1.

    Very hard trying to trace what wire goes where.

    #206 8 days ago

    The grey wire leaving the 1st shot relay coil will travel back thru the harness to it’s next location. Don’t confuse it with the grey wire coming from the game over relay switch.
    Tracking the grey wire might mean that in some spots the wire wrapping braid may need to be cut. Post pic of relay it goes to next.
    The same unsolder double grey, clip the double solder wire connection. Test each grey wire and coil lug with other lead on double white.
    Post results.

    #207 8 days ago

    This is the first time I'm tracing wires and I think it's going to take a very very long time for me to find the right relay.

    I've already taken out five harnesses and there are a million and one more.

    Let me make sure I know what you're asking:

    Wherever these two gray wires I'm tracing lead, you want me to unsolder those relay wires and take readings while the black alligator clip is still on the double white wires on the start relay?

    Is that correct?

    #208 8 days ago

    Instead of tracing wires. On the schematic in our switched common grey wire section. List the relays that are in the head that our grey wires go to it’s coil. All other coils not in the head are eliminated by the unplugged jones plugs. With each coil on the list to be tested, unsolder the double grey wires, do not split or clip double grey wires.
    Do a resistance test from double white wires to the grey wires just unsoldered from the lug. When the resistance test shows 1 instead of 0.00 the short should be in the unsoldered coils circuit.

    #209 7 days ago

    This is where I could really use Howard's expertise.
    I think I'll send him a PM.

    If I follow the 1st Shot (12A on Schematic) it goes to the Pitching Relay, from there I'm lost.

    If I'm reading your post correct, we're almost to the end of finding the short?

    Screen Shot 2020-09-10 at 10.45.54 PM (resized).png
    #210 7 days ago

    Are the wires that you have unsoldered being resoldered as you go or are they still unsoldered. Trust you have lots of pics to ultimately re-connect. In a general sense I have rarely needed to disconnect multiple wires to source a problem. Just my approach and view.

    #211 7 days ago

    The way that coils are listed in order on the schematic is not the way they are wired. It’s only the relays in the head that have the grey wires on their coils are the relays that the unsoldering is needed. And yes you might be close to finding the short. Locating shorts in a machine is one of the toughest things to do. So far your machine has had 2 and looking for a 3rd. Even if the 3rd short is found the subject of replacing the pitch motor still needs to be addressed.

    #212 7 days ago
    Quoted from wayner:

    Are the wires that you have unsoldered being resoldered as you go or are they still unsoldered.

    I haven't resoldered anything.

    Quoted from pinballdaveh:

    So far your machine has had 2 and looking for a 3rd. Even if the 3rd short is found the subject of replacing the pitch motor still needs to be addressed.

    Do you believe I have a 3rd short or is that speculation?

    Also, I did a search some weeks ago for that numbered motor and couldn't find anything.
    I guess when the moment presents itself, I'll contact PBResource.

    BTW, I sent a message to Howard for his help.

    Would an old electrical cord be the cause of problems?
    It looks like one prong is a little recessed in the casing of the cord.

    #213 7 days ago
    Quoted from Macca:

    Would an old electrical cord be the cause of problems?

    The 30V fuse is blowing, right? A shorted power cord would blow the 110V
    I think I remember the fuse is blowing once the Game Over Relay gets reset at
    start up, right? If there was a dead short in the Pitch Motor it would blow, but not
    until the motor got energized. The Pitch Motor doesn't energize at start up.
    I'm sure your pitch motor is fine. If the coils physically look okay, it could be
    in a couple wires, or I even once found a short in two blades where the insulator
    had failed. I wouldn't say recommended, but I elegator clipped and jumped the
    fuse holder and was ready with the plug to unplug and started the machine and
    as soon as a puff of smoked appeared, I unplugged and the puff of smoke would
    be where the problem was. If it's a coil, the coil will smoke way before the wires.
    I'm not recommending, (I have to say that or people will say I'm crazy, haha) but
    just saying. I've worked on so many machines that it's nothing, but extra sets of
    eyes is always a plus when watching. I'm just saying if all else fails.

    #214 7 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    The 30V fuse is blowing, right?

    Hey Mopar, actually, it's the 15 amp that keeps blowing. You're correct, when the game over gets engaged it'll blow.
    If I start the game with it in the up position it'll blow when I turn the power on.

    The other day whatever I was doing, there was a runner on second base.
    I don't know if the animation motor fully reset or the machine just stopped mid-game.
    IIRC, I first blew a fuse mid-game that started all these problems.

    Quoted from Mopar:

    If there was a dead short in the Pitch Motor it would blow, but not
    until the motor got energized. The Pitch Motor doesn't energize at start up.
    I'm sure your pitch motor is fine.

    I certainly hope you're right, that'll be one less thing I have to worry about.
    Dave says I already have two and possibly three shorts.

    Quoted from Mopar:

    I wouldn't say recommended, but I elegator clipped and jumped the
    fuse holder and was ready with the plug to unplug and started the machine and
    as soon as a puff of smoked appeared, I unplugged and the puff of smoke would
    be where the problem was. If it's a coil, the coil will smoke way before the wires.
    I'm not recommending, (I have to say that or people will say I'm crazy, haha) but
    just saying. I've worked on so many machines that it's nothing, but extra sets of
    eyes is always a plus when watching. I'm just saying if all else fails.

    Wow, that takes guts. If I did that I could see where that would lead...time to look for a new house.

    #215 7 days ago
    Quoted from Macca:

    Wow, that takes guts. If I did that I could see where that would lead...time to look for a new house.

    Haha. Nothing like that unless you left the house. If you lived close by,
    I'd stop over.
    Yes, a 15A fuse is blowing, but that fuse has to be in the 30V circuit.
    The coils run on 30V. The Relay Bank Coil may be 110V, but we know
    it's not that..
    I skipped and jumped back in. Where were the 2 shorts?

    #216 7 days ago
    Quoted from Macca:

    This is where I could really use Howard's expertise.

    Thanks for the kind words!!

    This thread goes on for more pages/posters/posts than I can absorb so I'll start with what you said in an earlier PM to me:

    When the main bank relay energizes and lifts the game over relay that's when it blows a fuse.

    I understand that (1) It's the 30 volt fuse that's blowing, and (2) By "main bank relay" you mean the two "6-Slide Bank" solenoid coils because according to the schematic at 15A, the Game Over relay is physically on it.
    The 6-Slide Bank solenoid coils probably aren't the problem because they're in the 110 volt circuit at schematic 22B.
    That leaves the 6 relays on the 6-Slide Bank and the many circuits that are wired to the switches on those 6 relays.

    Have you tried resetting those 6 relays one at a time manually to find out which relay blows the fuse?

    #217 7 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Haha. Nothing like that unless you left the house. If you lived close by,
    I'd stop over.

    Such a great gesture, I appreciate it so much.

    Quoted from Mopar:

    Where were the 2 shorts?

    Looking back over the thread the 1st shot and game over lugs gave me a reading of 1.
    Dave hasn't confirmed which shorts so don't hold me to this.

    Quoted from HowardR:

    Thanks for the kind words!!

    You, like so many on this great site are more than deserving!

    Quoted from HowardR:

    By "main bank relay" you mean the two "6-Slide Bank" solenoid coils

    I'm referring to the bank with 1st Shot, Game Over, Start, etc. There's another bank with all the Cancel coils.

    Quoted from HowardR:

    Have you tried resetting those 6 relays one at a time manually to find out which relay blows the fuse?

    I've only done the game over relay which will blow the fuse immediately.

    #218 7 days ago

    Parts availability for a 55 year old machine makes restoration a gamble.

    #219 7 days ago
    Quoted from HowardR:

    Have you tried resetting those 6 relays one at a time manually to find out which relay blows the fuse?

    Quoted from Macca:

    I've only done the game over relay which will blow the fuse immediately.

    No need to test the other 5 relays then.
    Next step is to find out which individual switch on the Game Over relay blows the fuse. Have you done that?

    #220 7 days ago

    I believe it was the second switch from the bottom that blew the fuse.

    #221 7 days ago
    Quoted from Macca:

    I believe it was the second switch from the bottom that blew the fuse.

    1) It's important to be sure about this kind of thing. If you're not sure then retest until you are sure.
    2) Where is the offending switch on the schematic?

    #222 7 days ago
    Quoted from HowardR:

    1) It's important to be sure about this kind of thing. If you're not sure then retest until you are sure.

    On a previous post I read, I recall putting a business card between the second switch from the bottom game over relay and it did NOT blow a fuse.
    When I removed the business card and started the machine, it blew.

    Quoted from HowardR:

    2) Where is the offending switch on the schematic?

    On the schematic it's on J9 and of course, I'm lost after that.
    I can tell you there are the double grey (white?) wires going to each prong on the relay.

    #223 6 days ago
    Quoted from HowardR:

    2) Where is the offending switch on the schematic?

    Quoted from Macca:

    On the schematic it's on J9 and of course, I'm lost after that.
    I can tell you there are the double grey (white?) wires going to each prong on the relay.

    At J9 I see the Game Over relay coil but no switch on it with or without a double grey or white wire.

    #224 6 days ago

    My schematic skills are not top-notched but I thought I'd include a photo of the double gray wires going to the second from the bottom game over relay.

    One of the wires is hidden but it's there.

    IMG_20200911_231541680~2.jpg
    #225 6 days ago

    Had to take a breather from the machine, with trying to trace the wires and reading the schematic to find the sequence of coils it made my head spin.

    I just went down in the basement and tried tracing the wires …and again my head is spinning.

    If someone can chime in what to do next it would be great.

    Quoted from HowardR:

    At J9 I see the Game Over relay coil but no switch on it with or without a double grey or white wire.

    Howard, a wire is unsoldered on the game over relay so even energizing it does nothing.

    Quoted from pinballdaveh:

    Parts availability for a 55 year old machine makes restoration a gamble.

    Are we fighting a losing battle?
    I hope not, I think this is a machine worth saving...despite the headaches.

    Dave since you've identified two shorts, can you give me an idea what parts are needed?
    Also, this elusive third short, do you believe this is the last short?

    #226 5 days ago

    One more test please.
    Facing the pitch motor cam, can the cam be manually turned clockwise?
    Can the cam make a complete revolution without binding? Watch motor gears for problem.

    #227 5 days ago

    Just tried moving the cam clockwise.

    Had no problem and the balls were actually released and of course fell into the cabinet.

    It shows some resistance at one point which may be a home position (picture.)

    It can easily move after that if I engage the cam.

    Other than that the cam moved without any issues.

    IMG_20200912_221518418.jpg

    #228 5 days ago
    Quoted from Macca:

    If someone can chime in what to do next it would be great.

    A big step in the right direction would be to find out what circuit(s) the offending switch is hooked to.
    (If this was a Williams game, the manual would have a picture of each relay with a description of what switch does)

    Unfortunately we don't have that, so here's how I'd get that information: Scan the schematic to find all the switches on the Game Over relay.

    #229 5 days ago
    Quoted from HowardR:

    Scan the schematic to find all the switches on the Game Over relay.

    I gave the schematic a look.
    I can only see the Game Relay goes to the Player Unit, Start Relay, Plumb Tilt and Lock Relay.

    Of course I say that with the caveat I'm not the best at reading schematics.
    Maybe you can shine some more light...

    Screen Shot 2020-09-13 at 3.52.47 AM (resized).png
    #230 5 days ago

    If the offending switch on the Game Over relay has a Grey wire on one terminal and White wire on its other terminal, this is probably it (labelled "A")

    1. You're going to have to inspect all 30 coils (labelled "B" and "C") and then
    2. unsolder the grey wires on the 30 (gulp) coils to find out which if any are shorted.

    3. As you unsolder them, make sure you keep track of where every one goes, and wrap electrical tape around the bare wires to keep them from shorting out.
    4. Leave each unsoldered and manually close the the offending switch on the Game Over relay to see if the circuit breaker you substituted for the fuse blows.
    5. Once you find the wire that when unsoldered makes the circuit breaker no longer blow, resolder the other wires one at a time to make sure it's only that one coil that's causing the problem.

    I'd start with the Pitch motor for no particular reason.

    pasted_image (resized).png
    #231 5 days ago

    Howard, first off, thank you for the graphic.

    Can you make the distinction for me about a coil that is bad and a coil that is shorted?
    Does a bad coil create a short?

    It’s going to take me a while to digest your post, my only other question is Advil or Tylenol?

    #232 5 days ago
    Quoted from Macca:

    Can you make the distinction for me about a coil that is bad and a coil that is shorted?
    Does a bad coil create a short?

    A bad coil can be open (broken wire inside) or shorted (burnt internal insulation allows electricity to skip much of its wires). We're looking for a shorted coil.
    Another thing you can do is measure the resistance of each coil after you disconnect one of its terminals. Take notes for practice at being meticulous.

    Quoted from Macca:

    my only other question is Advil or Tylenol?

    Heroin. Kidding. Persistence and stop working when you start getting burned out, like getting frustrated or make 1 or at most 2 mistakes.

    Seriously, Persistence and Meticulousness will pay off.

    That's pretty much what I have but if you'd like some moral support, which would be understandable, we can do a few phone calls.

    #233 5 days ago

    Thank you for agreeing that unsoldering the grey wires is the way to locate the short. My splitting of the greys and using resistance tests, each grey wire could be checked for shorts to white and each coil lug could be tested. Cabinet shorts from grey to white could be checked on the jones plug male pins. From previous tests I think the short is contained in the head lowering the number of relays to check.

    #234 5 days ago

    Here’s an easy test.
    Resistance test, connect a meter jumper to the white off of lock relay coil. Connect the other jumper to the grey wire from the 1st shot relay that measures 0.00 when connected.
    Manually push in the out control relay ( this takes 3 bleacher relay coils out of the circuit)
    Does the meter reading change?

    #235 5 days ago

    That seems like an easy test. I'll try it when I get home a bit later.

    #236 5 days ago

    I should have put "easy" in quotes.

    I attached the black alligator clip to the white wire that came off of the lock relay.

    I attached the red alligator clip to one of the gray wires. It registered 00.7 I choose the other wire that registered 1.

    I engaged the outs relay which is the sixth relay down from the lock relay and got no change at all, still registered 1.

    IMG_20200913_190126743.jpgIMG_20200913_185437398.jpg
    #237 5 days ago

    Wrong relay
    Out control relay needs to be pushed not out relay.

    #238 4 days ago

    I see out control relay on the playfield section of the schematic legend.

    One relay under my playfield is not labeled so I can only assume that's the outs control relay because the other relays on the legend are in that same lineup (bleacher relays, bat control, etc)

    IMG_20200913_201923854.jpg
    #239 4 days ago

    The jones plug test I was talking about is to unplug the jones plugs from cabinet to the head if not already done. Try and find the grey wire and the white wire on the male jones plug and do a resistance test with meter connected to both pins. Then do a resistance test on the females that the 2 males would plug into.

    #240 4 days ago

    All the Jones plugs are unplugged from a previous test.

    It's a little hard making out the colors but I could see on the second Jones plug from the left at the very bottom the white wires.

    The gray wire I believe is on the right side of that second Jones plug third from the top which is already unsoldered.

    I touched the wire to the contact making a connection and still got a reading of 1.

    If that is correct I'm still getting a reading of 1 no matter what I try.

    Also, should the gray and white wires only be on one Jones plug?

    IMG_20200913_220942898.jpg
    #241 4 days ago

    If we can’t monitor the short from the jones plugs we can from inside the cabinet. With jones plugs unplugged from head still.
    In section B of Howard’s diagram find a relay that’s inside the cabinet with the greys on its coil, connect one lead to that grey. Connect the other lead to the white wires feeding the row of coils in your pic. What’s the resistance reading?

    #242 4 days ago

    I will try my best to get to it later tonight.

    We're celebrating my mother's birthday today so it may be quite a while before I get to it.

    #243 3 days ago

    I attached the black alligator clip to the white wire from the lock relay.

    In the cabinet the top Jones plug fourth from the left it looks like it had the gray blue wire.

    I took off the playfield to get a better look and tried my best to trace where the wire goes. It looks like it went to the
    "Bleacher extra run relay." (the flash of the camera takes away the blue from the wire.)

    I took a resistance test.

    The meter had a 1 in its display (set to 200 ohms) and no matter what relay I put the alligator clip on I still got a reading of 1.

    IMG_20200914_224016935~4.jpgIMG_20200914_232227718~2.jpg

    #244 3 days ago

    The short we are tracking is from the white wires to the solid grey color wires. Both these wire colors are found on coil lugs that also might feed a row of coils. Find each set of colors on each the playfield, the cabinet, and the head and do a resistance test on the 2 colors to isolate the problem.

    #245 3 days ago

    Out and about for the day, I will look at the machine later tonight.

    Also, would any of these circuit/continuity testers aid in finding the short?

    https://www.dormanproducts.com/p-30619-86611.aspx

    https://www.dormanproducts.com/p-30619-86612.aspx

    #246 3 days ago

    No your DMM already has you covered. You don’t need those. It’s a handy tester easy to carry for convenience.

    #247 3 days ago

    Just checking...thank you.
    I'll be heading down in the basement eventually...

    I said it before, but I appreciate your patience.
    Sometimes, you just gotta take a break and clear your head...

    #248 19 hours ago

    I really need to make it a point to NOT go down in the basement late night trying to look for wiring problems.

    The other night at 1:30am, I’m looking at a bunch of wires and not making the distinction between colors and finally said “nope” and went back upstairs.

    I really needed to take a break from the machine.
    Thank you Howard for your words of encouragement.

    Dave, I’ll look under the playfield for the solid grey wire and connect it to the white wire that’s connecting that row of coils in post #238

    I’ll also do my best to trace the grey wire from the 1st shot and see where it leads in the cabinet and head. I’ll probably have to remove some of the binding or just try moving the wires a bit to see the grey, but I’ll give it a shot when I get home from work.

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