Hi mrbanjo
I look in ipdb at schema of "Juke Box": http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1324 . At schema-A/B/C-21/22/23/24 are drawn "A,B,C,D,E,F"-Relays, also Special-Relay and Extra-Relay. I do not understand the capacitors "10MF, 50 Volt" - I do not understand the octagon-symbol around the switches drawn there - (Self-Hold-Switches ?).
You write: NONE does lock-in --- maybe the Switch at schema-C-20 is faulty (?): "Normally-Closed-Switch on Outhole-Relay" - closed during play as the Outhole-Relay pulls-in AFTER You have lost a ball.
Want to look for this switch - it has wires "Green" and "Grey-Blue" soldered-on. Greetings Rolf
P.S.: How about "Special-" and "Extra(Ball?)-" Feature ? Do these features "stay-on" ? They are also hooked-on onto the Outhole-Relay-Switch.

Hi mrbanjo
the problem is: I have never seen the inside of a Chicago Coin Pin. I can look at the ipdb-schema "Juke Box" (I do have some knowledge of Gottlieb / Williams / Bally) and I can do some guessing. "Guessing" --- You can do on Your own - so may want to read the following as "loud thinking" (?) may want to try ?

You get "(plug in) relay buzz" - I understand "buzzing relay" - I do not understand "plug in". Extraball-Relay does fine (Self-Hold-circuit is established (?) once activated: IT stays pulling) - the Special-Relay also (with legitime manipulation). DO THESE Relays buzz when steady pulling ?

I would like to know "Does A- (B,C,D,E,F)-Relay buzz when I manipulate / cheating - "Self-Hold-Current". You write "lite lights on contact" - does that mean AAA: when ball hits the target THEN light is lited" OR - BBB: For to "get Light lited" You MUST press the anchor-plate of the relay ?

IF You have AAA: does the buzzing really / truely comes CCC: only from this relay --- or does the buzzing comes DDD: only (maybe: also ?) from "100-points /1000-points Relay or Score-Drum" ?

IF (if) You have AAA and CCC: I give up - I have no idea: With AAA You feed "Pseudo-Self-Hold-Current to the relay (through permanently closed playfield switch)". Sorry, I have no explanation for the buzzing.

IF (if) You have AAA and DDD: In the schema I see: Playfield-Switch is a three-bladed switch: Ball rolls onto the playfield-Target - blade-A is mounted on the target, blade-A is moved -> blade-A makes contact to blade-B -> "blade-A AND blade-B" are moved -> they make contact to blade-C means ALL 3 blades have (now) contact. You must find out: Is the Score-Drum activated through "blade-A blade-B" OR through "blade-A blade-C" ? With a Jumper-Wire You then connect the TWO blades for Relay-A (B,C,D,E,F) - no ACTIVATION OF Point-Relay / -Score-Drum. Then listen to the buzzing -> Same amount of buzzing as when Extraball-Relay steady-pulls ?
If "same amount of buzzing": We can look further --- if "different buzzing": I give up ---I do not have another idea.

IF (if) You have BBB: I would try to use two Jumper-Wires and make "jumpered-connection on both sides of the coil" - connecting Coil-of-relay to "FUSE !!! near transformer-power" and connecting to "transformer-returning-side". THEN listen for the "buzzing".

AGAIN: I did some "loud thinking" - I do not know the solution - I am merely guessing and I write what I may try. Greetings Rolf

Hi mrbanjo
thanks for answer, description and pictures. The picture in post-6 shows the socket for testing the standard relays. I see two sockets for connecting the coil. I see 4 times 3 sockets (4 rows top -> down). I believe each such relay has four 3-bladed-Make-and-Brake-Switches. The wires to these 12 sockets determine how the M+B-Switches are used - 2 blades may be used for a neeeded (pin-logic) Normally-Open-Switch.

I refer to the ipdb-manual "Juke-Box" -> page-20 (ori-18) -> A-Relay and 3000-Relay and Photocell-Relay and Change-Relay have "Capacitor AND Diode ? and Resistor ?" - these Relays are different to the others.
B-, C-, D-, E, F-, Extra-, Special-Relay: To me they look identical - SWAPPABLE. I would mark (on the capsule / housing) EACH of these relays - so I always know, example: THIS IS Original-B-Relay.

Extra-Relay works fine - B-Relay does not establish "Self-Hold-Circuitry, B-Relay buzzes". I would swap B-Relay and Extra-Relay and test functionalty.
I predict: Extra-Relay in "Original-Place of B-Relay" will NOT establish Self-Hold-Circuitry (no pulling forever). Question: Does Extra-Relay in "Original-Place of B-Relay" BUZZ ?
I predict: B-Relay in "Original-Place of Extra-Relay" WILL establish Self-Hold-Circuitry (PULLING forever). Question: Does B-Relay in "Original-Place of Extra-Relay" BUZZ ?

On a given place (example: B-Relay) there are 3 chances of "fault": 1) the encapsulated Relay itself is faulty, 2) the condenser (?) is shot, 3) the wiring to the socket is no good.
With test (above) You can answer the question: "Is B-Relay itself faulty" ? (((Extra-Relay in place of B-Relay give different behaviour of the playfield-functionality))) "is B-Relay itself good" (((Extra-Relay in place of B-Relay give same behaviour of the playfield-functionality)))

For now I would put-off the question (is it good ?) "Condenser" - that would meen: Unsoldering -> swapping places -> solder-on again of swapped "Condenser on B-Relay" "Condenser on Extra-Relay" ...

For now I would sneak-in into the pin a (well defined) fault -> the behaviour (after sneaking-in) of the pin tells us about the "buzzing problem".
At schema-A/B/C-21/22/23/24 are drawn "A,B,C,D,E,F"-Relays, also Special-Relay and Extra-Relay. At schema-C-20 is the "Normally-Closed-Switch on Outhole-Relay" - wire-color-green and wire-color-grey-blue are soldered-on.

Sneak-in a stripe of paper into this switch -> make it OPEN. Then do "test-original-layout" (B-Relay on original place, Extra-Relay on original place) -> the "Extra-Relay" will not establish "Self-Hold-Circuitry (because of sneaked-in stripe of paper in Outhole-Relay-Switch) - but the question is: When You do manipulate (as Your are used on the "faulty A- through F-Relays") -> question: Does NOW the Extra-Relay also buzz ? Means: "Is there a difference in "feeding through closed self-Hold-Circuitry" feeding through manipulated playfield switch" " ? Must we look in detail the wiring of wire-color-grey-blue ? - Have ALL these socket a wire-color-grey-blue soldered-on ?

Depending on the results of Your tests: "Swapping condensers" and do similar testing (about the same tests as written above) ? Start a new topic in pinside "How to test an condenser ?" Greetings Rolf

Hi mrbanjo
according to schema and manual: A-Relay and 3000-Relay and Photocell-Relay and Change-Relay have "Capacitor AND Diode ? and Resistor ?" - these Relays are different to the others.
B-, C-, D-, E, F-, Extra-, Special-Relay: To me they look identical - SWAPPABLE.

So I would swap "B-Relay" and "Extra-Relay" to test "buzzing ?" and to test "Self-Hold-Circuit works". Do all tests with "B-Relay" and "Extra-Relay". Greetings Rolf

Hi Guys.
Guessing here, from your description, I would guess, your dealing with an RC timer circuit.
is it possible, that when the target is hit, it gives you a short time to do something else too? to add to the score.
dont have that pin ,but would guess on right track there.
if so, find that circuit, and locate the signal "in", which should pulse when target is hit, then release, but the cap is still charged, and bleeds off through the resistor, and diode.
if you are gonna remove the caps for testing anyway, just replace all 3 parts in all the targets relays.
the caps dry out, the diodes leak, and the resistors change value in time.
so, shotgun in new parts, and all circuits shud time the same.

So, based on what I've read, A - F don't hold when hit. So I'm assuming that Special and Extra relays don't hold either? If that's true then based on the fact that the Change relay is working says that the voltage to those relays is correct. Therefore, the only thing in common that I see is the Out Hole relay. Can you do a continuity check on the Out Hole relay? If that's open then it will never hold. As for the 3v, that seems like it should be easy to find. Is it only the A - F lites that have the 3v? What about the playfield display lites or bumper lites?

And the buzzing only happens when you hold in one of the A - F targets and stops buzzing when you stop holding?

it sounds like you need to find the switch that provides power to those lites.
you got a switch that is not conducting well, hence the 3.2 volts

Yeah, clip one lead to the ground and the other lead to "+" side of the capacitor at any of the relays A - F. It almost sounds like you're missing a ground somewhere. Who knows. As far as I can tell, the A - F should do the following: Target A gets hit and closes to energize the A relay coil. That then closes "A" re switch which completes a path to ground via the Out Hole Relay. Once that happens, the connection should stay energized until the Out Hole relay opens. It should be that simple unless I'm missing something? I think checking the voltage will tell a lot.

Hi Folks
I got from mrbanjo's description: "Extra-Relay" works (establishes Self-Hold-current, no buzzing). First fault: A-, B, C, D, E, F-Relay do NOT establish Self-Hold-Current.
Second fault: A-, B, C, D, E, F-Relay do buzz when the playfield-Switch is pemanently closed (some way of forced Self-Hold-Circuitry).

From the ipdb-schema of "Juke Box" (4-player version of the pin) I read: THESE Relays are identical. To find out about "Buzzing" I suggested: Put "maybe faulty B-Relay" in place of "good Extra-Relay" -> if "B-Relay sitting in place of Extra-Relay" works -> the buzzing is NOT in the relay.
To find out about "No Self-Hold-Circuitry" I suggested: Put "good Extra-Relay" in place of "faulty B-Relay" -> if "Extra-Relay sitting in place of B-Relay" has NO Self-Hold-Circuitry -> "Fault NO Self-Hold-Circuitry" is NOT in the relay.
His answer (post-13): "traded out the Relays - NO difference" I can read "this way" or "that way" ...

I show a snippet of ipdb-schema-Juke-Box - "marked green" is "making points (I believe)", "marked-orange" is "Initial-Current flowing to the B-Relay", "marked-Red" is how Self-Hold-Circuitry should be established.

I suggested: "sneak-in a stripe of paper into "Switch on Outhole-Relay - keep the switch OPEN" -> now to have the EXTRA-Relay keep-on pulling: MANIPULATION on the playfield is needed - question: (doing so) Does the Extra-Relay ALSO buzzes ?

I believe: Wire-color-grey-blue comes from "Switch on Outhole-Relay" to "Extra-Relay". Then a wire runs daisy-chained from Extra-Relay to A-, B, C, D, E, F-Relay - and the daisy-chain-wire has broken-off.

The talked-about "Change-Relay" --- it is NOT HOOKED-IN into the Self-Hold-Circuitry.

I would look for "good connection ?": On ALL sockets - the Number-8-Lugs --- do they have connection and are hooked-on into wire-color-grey-blue ? Greetings Rolf

0Juke-Box-Work-A_(resized).jpg

So with nothing pushed in such as pushing the "B" target you're measuring 37.8V on the Grey/blue wire? This is while you have the other lead of your meter on the "Green" wire? If that's true then there must be a switch closed somewhere or a wire touching somewhere it's not supposed to. If you have your meter lead on the green (common/gnd) and the other lead on pin 13(the "+" of the capacitor) of the relay "B" while the relay is still installed you should measure 37V. Pin 14(the "-" of the capacitor) should measure the same voltage as pin 13. That's because the "B" target should not be pushed in.

OK, how about this:
Remove relays A - F, Special and Extra.
Measure voltage from the "Green"/common to pin 8 of relay "B". That should not measure any voltage. If it does measure a voltage then there's a problem. If it doesn't measure a voltage then put the "B" relay back in and measure the same thing. Although you could use the "A" relay socket pin 8 because the pin 8's are all connected in this A-F. It should still not measure anything. If it still doesn't measure anything then push the "B" target. Does it light up and hold?

Sorry, that's because you're measuring AC voltage so it wouldn't be ground really but it's more like a "common" reference. So if you put your "black" negative lead on the green and use that as your reference you will measure the 6V, 12V and 33V on the transformer correctly.

That refers to another connection in the schematic. Sometimes it's easier and cleaner to do this rather than draw more lines everywhere. So on the outer edge of the schematic the top/bottom are the A,B,C,etc. columns and the left/right are the 1,2,3,etc. rows. So the diamond shape with A13 means that that line is connected to the diamond shape with C24 in it and vise versa.

As far as I can tell there should be NO voltage on terminal 8 at this point.

Schematic_A13_to_C24_(resized).jpg

Schematic_A1_(resized).jpg

in Rolfs post #20, the Red line at top of page, is hold circuit.
it shud lock on if the switch at the top, "too fuzzy to read it", is closed.
then shud stay locked till the EOS switch on the score reel RELEASES it...just guessing.
for the low lite volts, there has to be a switch on game over, start relay, feature relay, tilt relay, something that controls the 6volts to the lites is not clean....again, just guessing

Hi
I was busy making another snippet of (ipdb) schema "Juke Box". "Catch86" made also - and (post-26) shows how "A-13" and "C-24" have permanent connection.

mrbanjo, sorry - I read from Your posting "Extra-Relay functions". Corrigenda in my mind: NO - it also does not work.

The "buzzing" is one problem - "pulling-in BUT NOT stay-pulling" is another problem. Look at my JPG -> "light-green lines" - I believe: Starting at top of drawing -> SOMEWHERE a "light-green marked" wire has broken-off or the "Switch on Outhole-Relay" is no good -> through "original color wire-Grey-Blue" -> to Lug-8 on A-, B ... Relay and the daisy-chain to "Lug-8" on all other relays: wire broken-off or Switch no good.

I do not know the pin - I do not know the transformer (wiring, lugs) - pin runs on some 40 Volts - I FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE "suggesting" "jumpering by using lugs on the transformer.

Look at my JPG -> "Right Flipper Button" has soldered-on "wire-orange". "Right Flipper Button" has soldered-on "wire-green". (((THERE I can clip-on a Jumper-Wire to use "original-wire-color-green", I do not want to use the functionality of the Flipper-Button - I only want to clip-on my Jumper-Wire)))
The other end of the Jumper-Wire "clip-on at Lug-8 on A-Relay" -> toggle-on the pin -> start a game -> close (on playfield) the switch for "A-Relay-function" -> WHAT happens ?
I hope for "A-Relay pulls-in and keeps-on pulling" - I also hope for "NO Buzzing".
To end the feature You must toggle-off the pin or You must disconnect the Jumper-Wire. Greetings Rolf

0Juke-Box-Work-B_(resized).jpg

That's correct. Basically you're measuring voltage across the out hole switch. There shouldn't be.

Hi mrbanjo
I had the theory "Self-Hold-Circuitry through Lug-8 Lug-12 as pulling A-Relay closes the switch" - But (theory) Self-Hold-Circuitry cannot be established because "Switch on OUTHOLE-Relay is faulty-open" --- this theory You have proven WRONG: With the Jumper-Wire You made SURE (dark-green-line): The connection "lightgreen-line" ls FORCED by the Jumper-Wire ---"darkgreen" guarantees connection.
I am frustrated - theory is proven wrong.

I do NOT understand "what for" is "diode" - "what for" is capacitor. (((wild, wild, crazy theory: Relays were built for 24 VAC or ??? DC -> Chicago Coins uses the diode to make these relays "work in Chicago-Coins pins" I do NOT know.)))
You and catch86 are talking about measuring 37.8 Volt:
MAYBE, maybe, maybe a preowner mounted the 110 VAC-Line-Chord FALSE - exchanging "POWER-Line" and "Returning-Line" --- so through transformer windings YOU HAVE POWER-SIDE AND RETURN-SIDE (37 VAC) exchanged - You have POWER at transformer-Lug-GREEN (instead of having POWER a transformer-Lug-WHITE).
"Flipper-Coils, Bonus-Unit-Coil etc. NOT HAVING DIODE" have no problem witch "changed wiring" --- maybe, maybe A-Relay (having a diode) -> not working because "changed wiring".
Want to test my wild, wild theory: in the schema at A/B-1 I see: 100,000 Relay 1st Player and (nice to see) I see Diode and I see capacitor -> Test -> try to make MORE than 100,000 Points -> question: Does 100,000 Relay 1st. Player pull-in and stay pulled ? does it BUZZ ? You will prove the new wild, wild theory right (buzzing) or You will prove theory wrong (100,000 Relay works as it should). Greetings Rolf

Yes. The green wire should be the green in the schematic. Put one lead on the green wire of the transformer and the other on the 10 amp fuse. Either one. Meter should read 6v. Until you can read that then you won't have a good starting point.

image_(resized).jpeg

image_(resized).jpeg

Yes. Now what you measure you can believe.

No.

Wait, with the relay removed you get voltage on both pins 13 and 14? So for this troubleshooting let's stick with all relays removed and just focus on Relay B since that's where Rolf started. So if the relay is removed you measure 34.8V at pins 13 and 14. Do you see the same voltage at pin 12? Do you measure 34.8V on both sides or one side of the "B" target? If you measure 34.8V at pin 13 and 14 of the removed relay then I would say that the 10MF 50V capacitor is shorted, but I find that hard to believe all of the capacitors are shorted. With all of the relays removed check the voltage at pins 13 and 14 for each relay location.

Hi mrbanjo, Catch86 +
some facts and thoughts:
I do not understand "what for" the diodes and capacitors in SS-pins are. I read about "diodes for cutting Back-lash HIGH-Voltage (?) when coil looses electricity - the circuit-bord, transistors would blow" - about capacitors "reduce "burn" on contacts" - I DO NOT KNOW.

The snippet of schema (post-20) shows: A diode is used on A-, B-, C-, D-, E-, F-, Special-, Extra-Relay --- TWO (why ?) diodes are used on Change-Relay. Photocell-Relay and Spinner-Score-Relay are driven by DC (ipdb-schema). Capacitors are used (one for each relay).
The snippet of schema (post-26) shows: A diode is used on 1st-, 2nd-, 3rd-, 4th-player 100'000 Point-Relay. Capacitors are used (one for each relay).

There are other Relays (example Coin-Relay) - they do NOT have a doide, they do not have a capacitor.

Widely used is "Self-Hold-Switch on a relay" - Initial current flows -> relay pulls -> activates many switches - ONE is the Self-Hold-Switch -> closing -> establishing Self-Hold-Current forever (until another switch in this Self-Hold-Circuitry opens).

My first theory was: Switch on Outhole-Relay is faulty - NO Self-Hold-Circuitry - maybe, maybe the buzzing comes from "manipulated Initial-Current forever". mrbanjo has proven this theory: "WRONG".

Maybe, maybe Chicago Coins used "widely used DC-Relays (DC, but cheap) - and mounted the diodes to get "DC from AC-Source". Maybe the diode is shot -> AC flows (?). Maybe, maybe a preowner mounted a new Line chord BUT made faulty connections - Power is on "wrong transformer-Lug" -> maybe, maybe the diode is still good but not working properly (because "Power-Side and Returning side on the transformer changed places - I do not know.

So I suggested: Do make MORE than 100'000 Points -> do the 100'000-Relays properly work ?
IF "YES": My theory of "new line-chord mounted faulty" will be / would be proven WRONG.
Another suggestion: Look for "Type-print-info" on all these Relays -> "SAME" Relays ??? -> If so - want to try: Mount the "B-Relay" in place of a 100'000-Relay (and make more than 100'000 points) -> what happens ?
Mount a 100'000-Relay in place of the B-Relay -> what happens ? Greetings Rolf

This just doesn't make sense. Do you know how to test a diode with your meter? If you do then great, but do it with the pin unplugged. If you don't then just measure resistance across it and then reverse your meter leads and measure again. Another thing is to unsolder one lead of the capacitor and measure the voltage at pin 13 and 14.