(Topic ID: 214898)

Checking Line Voltage (at transformer) Williams Sys 6 Firepower

By xeneize

6 years ago


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  • 35 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by xeneize
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#1 6 years ago

Gang:

I started resuscitating a Firepower that had a very hard life. Initial inspection revealed several fried coils, hacked displays, and a transformer that was completely mis-wired. I never even powered it on, but rather, immediately gutted it, reworked the cabinet, boards, and displays. I also added the additional bridge rectifiers per vid1900 's guide.

Now, it is all finally coming back together and the cabinet and head are fully reassembled. The playfield is still untouched and not in the cabinet. New groundstrap, new power cord, new fuses, all installed. Here's the issue. When I power on, I get nothing. No transformer hum, no GI at the coin door or backbox.

First thing I did was make sure all of my cabinet wiring matched my schematic (It did NOT originally).
Confirmed that I have 122VAC at the service outlet.
Confirmed that I also have 122VAC when I test across 6PI-1 and 6PI-3, when the power switch is "ON" (closed).
The input voltage wires are all at their correct lugs per the schematic (they were NOT originally and I did document their original placements, if we need that info later)

I have not connected any PCB boards yet but can add the power supply if we need to for troubleshooting. However, I was hoping to be able to validate proper voltages at the transformer. Would it not be possible to probe the wires (at the molex plug) coming from the transformer output lugs?

I have yet to be able to determine any voltage at the transformer or beyond.

Schematic and photo of transformer provided for reference - I have confirmed that the model of transformer installed is correct.

Thanks for weighing in!

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#2 6 years ago

Did you try testing the 18v AC signal after the transformer?
The two gray wires used to power the audio board have an AC signal.
The gray-white wire is a center tap for that winding.

If the GI is not on and no voltage on the gray wires, then can you assume the transformer has failed?

#3 6 years ago
Quoted from JDD:

Did you try testing the 18v AC signal after the transformer?

I did, (with black DMM lead to the grey white wire and red lead to either grey wire) and got no voltage reading. FWIW, the schematic reads that 9.3VAC is the correct out put there - not 18VAC, but regardless I get nothing when testing as described.

#4 6 years ago

Bump for the AM crowd

#5 6 years ago

The schematic shows 9.3VAC between the centre tap and the grey wires at the transformer. Those grey wires exit on the right and the total across them is 18.7VAC (9.3 + 9.3) which will be about right.

If you set your meter to resistance mode and put the meter leads across the power prongs on the AC plug, does the resistance drop when you switch on the power switch under the cabinet? - i.e. do you have continuity through the primary side of the transformer?

#6 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

put the meter leads across the power prongs on the AC plug

Quench just to make sure I understand correctly - unplug the machine, set DMM to resistance (Ohms), place leads on the power plug, flip the power switch to "on" and see if the resistance drops?

Quoted from Quench:

do you have continuity through the primary side of the transformer?

Is this verified by simply checking for continuity from the input side of the transformer to the molex on the output? (e.g. input lug 8 to Grey wire in molex socket 16)

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from xeneize:

quench just to make sure I understand correctly - unplug the machine, set DMM to resistance (Ohms), place leads on the power plug, flip the power switch to "on" and see if the resistance drops?

Yes correct make sure the machine is unplugged!

Quoted from xeneize:

Is this verified by simply checking for continuity from the input side of the transformer to the molex on the output? (e.g. input lug 8 to Grey wire in molex socket 16)

No. There should be no connectivity at all between the input and output of the transformer. They must be isolated.

Since you've got no 18VAC on the secondary side (output) of the transformer, we need to see if the primary side (input) windings have continuity through to the AC plug. That's what the test above will check.

#8 6 years ago

Quench Test completed. The drop in resistance was VERY small when the power switch was flipped to the "on" position. The photos attached are indicative of the drop and were consistent across half a dozen tests.

Any suggestions on where/what to check next?

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#9 6 years ago

Yeah there's an open circuit somewhere. If you had your fingers touching the prongs/meter probes that will be what the 3 Mega ohm reading is (resistance through your body).

First thing, have you made sure the mains AC fuse in the cabinet is good?

Actually, it looks like you have some jumper links missing on the transformer.
The schematic above shows transformer lug 2 should be connected to lug 3, and lug 6 should be connected to lug 7. Can you check it?

#10 6 years ago

Quench There are no external jumpers between the transformer lugs.

For what it may be worth - I will provide a synopsis of how the transformer WAS wired when I inherited it.

The YLW wire WAS connected to lug 5, but per the schematic it should be on lug 1 (current location)
The BLK/WHT wire WAS connected to lug 2, but per the schematic it should be on lug 4 (current location)
The BRN/WHT wire WAS connected to lug 1, but per the schematic it should be on lug 5 (current location)
The WHT/RED wire WAS connected to lug 6, but per the schematic it should be on lug 8 (current location)

I never attempted powering the game on when it was in its earlier state as even though the transformer was the correct part number, the wiring was clearly not aligned with the schematic.

Further more, in its original state, molex socket 6P1-1 did not provide continuity to the BLK main line as per the schematic. Neither was there continuity between 6P1-3 and the WHT line. As a result I flipped pins 1 & 3 in 6P1 and now the continuity tests read as expected from the main line all the way to 6P1-1&3.

Quoted from Quench:

First thing, have you made sure the mains AC fuse in the cabinet is good?

Yes, the fuse and fuse block were both replaced and a DMM test confirms that the fuse is good.

Quoted from Quench:

The schematic above shows transformer lug 2 should be connected to lug 3,

Would testing for continuity between lugs 2 and 3 determine whether or not the jumper is internal?

#11 6 years ago

Seems to me the way it was wired is as per NOTE #4 for low line conditions, but in a round about way.

Since you've corrected the wire colors at the transformer, I strongly recommend you check the wire color positions at connectors 6P1 and 6J1 in case they were also previously swapped there.
.

Quoted from xeneize:

Would testing for continuity between lugs 2 and 3 determine whether or not the jumper is internal?

Yes do this continuity test between transformer lugs 2 and 3 plus also between lugs 6 and 7. The way I read the schematic is those jumpers should be external on the transformer.

#12 6 years ago

6P1 is definitely correct.

I need to check 6J1. Will do that and check for internal "jumper" connectivity between transformer lugs after work.

Is there an easy way to check voltage (or even correct resistance) at the input transformer lugs (exercising caution, of course)?

#13 6 years ago
Quoted from xeneize:

Is there an easy way to check voltage (or even correct resistance) at the input transformer lugs (exercising caution, of course)?

Disconnect 6P1 from 6J1 to isolate the primary side of the transformer. The Primary side of the transformer is where power is wired into it. The Secondary side is where power comes out.

In the schematic above, the transformer shows four windings on the left primary side. The windings are the squiggly lines connected to the lugs numbered from 1 through to 8.

You should measure low resistance across lugs 1 and 2, and across 5 and 6. These should be equal.
You'll likely measure even lower resistance across 3 and 4, and across 7 and 8. These should be equal.
These are the four primary side windings the schematics show. By low resistance we're talking probably somewhere under 20 ohms.

#14 6 years ago

Isolated the transformer. Even in the absence of jumpers, there is indeed continuity between lugs:
1&2
3&4
5&6
7&8

Resistance on lugs:
1&2 = 1.0ohms
5&6 = 1.0ohms
3&4 = 0.2ohms
7&8 = 0.2ohms

Verified all wires in 6J1 are correct.

Reconnected 6J1 and 6P1 and retested continuity. When the transformer is no longer isolated, there is then continuity between lugs:
1,2,5&6
3,4,7&8

I am guessing that the continuity points change when the transformer is no longer isolated due to the looped wires entering 6P1.

Are we any closer to being confident that the transformer is good?

Part of me wonders what would happen if I rewired the transformer to the way I found it (as described in post #10) to see what I get.

#15 6 years ago

How about the jumper links connecting lug 2 to lug 3 and also the jumper link connecting lug 6 to lug 7 on the transformer?

#16 6 years ago

Quench There are no jumper links there now. Are you suggesting that I add them?

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from xeneize:

There are no jumper links there now. Are you suggesting that I add them?

Yes, because currently those lugs are dead ends and the transformer circuit is not complete.

FirePower_Transformer_SchematicA.jpgFirePower_Transformer_SchematicA.jpg
FirePower_TransformerA.jpgFirePower_TransformerA.jpg

#18 6 years ago

It's aliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive!

@quench, Great call on the jumpers! It made sense, I was just having a hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that someone would have actually removed them. They were easily added and continuity verified before power up.

The game was finally powered on for the first time in at least the 3 years I have owned it - and I know it hadn't been on for a much longer period than that.

More good news is that I have correct voltages at all test points, no display issues, and was able to successfully navigate all the diagnostic menus.

You, sir, are one of the reasons why this community is still great - thank you so much for your help!

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#19 6 years ago

Awesome!
I'm really happy you got it going - wiring issues on the AC power side can be a bit nervy but you made the right call to make sure it was done properly before powering it up. I hope it's smooth sailing from here

And thankyou for you know what

2 months later
#20 5 years ago

So, spent the last few weeks rebuilding all of my coils and mechs (replacing diodes and adding molex connectors to make them modular). Successfully tested all of them and left it sitting in attract for over thirty minutes. Did this on more than one occasion. Then a couple of nights ago while sitting in attract mode smoke started pouring out of the backbox. Turns out the grey wire from lug 16 that produces the 9.3VAC got so hot that it melted the insulation on the wire.

The fuse at 6F3 did NOT blow. Any ideas as to what would cause the wire to get so hot that it would melt, yet allow the fuse to remain intact? All ideas and suggestions are welcome!

the red circle below reflects what melted.
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#21 5 years ago

According to the schematics, the 6F3 fuse does not protect the wiring/circuit to connector 10P1 that goes to the sound board. So the short is likely along that circuit.

#22 5 years ago

Quench

Here we go again! That would imply that the short is located in the backbox, then - correct?

What's weird is that the wire physically runs through the fuse card, I don't know how it could ever reach 10P1 otherwise as it is only a single line.

There is really no way to replace the (now) un-insulated wire without taking apart the transformer. Am I now in need of a replacement, or is there a "tried" method of replacing that wire exiting the transformer?

#23 5 years ago

I looked at my Black Knight that has the system 6 power setup and the grey wires to the sound board come directly out of the transformer in parallel with the grey wires to the fuse card. That means the grey sound board power wires would be unrelated to your problem - they're fused separately on the sound board.

What exact fuses have you got at 6F2 and 6F3 on the fuse card and F5 on the power supply board?
What was the last bit of work you did on the machine before it started smoking?

First thing, try and determine where the short circuit is. Disconnect connector 10P1 from the sound board to isolate that circuit out. Measure the resistance to ground on both sides of fuse 6F3 and then remove that fuse and remeasure resistance. You then might want to remeasure again this time with connector 3P1 disconnected from the power-supply board.

What's the chance a rivet for the fuse holder on the fuse card has pierced through the rear paper card insulation to the aluminum backbox earth shield?
Is diode D8 on the power-supply board still good?

Is the grey wire melted going into the transformer? If yes, I would slice the external transformer paper to access the lower grey wire solder joint on the transformer and replace that melted grey wire altogether and make sure all other wires are properly insulated from one another. Then repair the sliced transformer paper. I'm not sure how comfortable you are doing this though..

#24 5 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Is the grey wire melted going into the transformer? If yes, I would slice the external transformer paper to access the lower grey wire solder joint on the transformer and replace that melted grey wire altogether and make sure all other wires are properly insulated from one another. Then repair the sliced transformer paper. I'm not sure how comfortable you are doing this though..

I agree, I wouldn't pitch the transformer, I would go back as close as you can to the transformer and solder a new wire or wires in place.

The fuses for the wires that lead to the sound card are on the sound card itself. Since the wire burned, I would check the values of the fuses on the sound card (and all others in the machine if you haven't yet) to make sure the correct values are installed. Its possible the wiring running through the backbox shorted to the backbox metal shield somewhere or got pinched under a screw.

#25 5 years ago

All fuses are (and have been) the correct rating. All fuses are still testing "good".

Last bit of work I did was to replace D7 on the power board as it was installed backwards (it may have been D8, but one was clearly reversed) and blowing the fuse at 6F3. I also replaced the GI pins on the molex plug/receptacle where they enter the playfield. I did have the game up and in attract several times (without blowing fuses) after that replacement.

All my diodes on the power board still test out "good".

I think I can handle replacing the wire to the transformer and imagine I should do that before doing any more trouble shooting with a naked wire in the back box.

Now, to rip out and repair the transformer. Are we pretty confident then that there is indeed a short I need to find? I will remove the fuse card and make sure it is not the culprit.

#26 5 years ago
Quoted from xeneize:

Are we pretty confident then that there is indeed a short I need to find?

Only way that wire can melt is a short circuit - since the 6F3 fuse didn't blow and you say the fuse is the correct value, the only thing I can see it being is a short between the entry to that fuse and the transformer and the only spot I see for that is potentially on the back of the fuse card. I must admit I'm not a Williams guy and not sure if this particular failure happens. The insulation between the fuse card and the earth back plane doesn't seem like much.

Quoted from xeneize:

I think I can handle replacing the wire to the transformer and imagine I should do that before doing any more trouble shooting with a naked wire in the back box.

If the transformer wire isn't touching anything, I would look for the short first with the machine off before moving/changing the state of things.
Disconnect connector 10P1 from the sound board to isolate that circuit out.
Disconnect connector 3P1 from the power-supply board. This removes the centre tap of that transformer winding from ground.
If you now do a resistance check between ground and either side of fuse 6F3, you should get no reading.

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

a short between the entry to that fuse and the transformer and the only spot I see for that is potentially on the back of the fuse card

@Quench this makes sense and is what I was thinking as it relates to where the short almost MUST be.

Sadly, the raw wire touches a lot of things as everything is cramped in that area of the backbox. It may be hard to safely leave it installed and power up again. If I can isolate it without performing surgery on the transformer first, I will. To be honest, rather than have to desolder wires and remove the harness to get the transformer out, I am half tempted to just cut any soldered wires and use molex connectors to make the transformer "modular".

I will report back after performing the tests you outline above.

#28 5 years ago

Here's a photo of the backside of the fuse card. There is nothing insulating it from the backbox panel. Should there be? Given the design, I don't see how the rivets would NOT make contact. Keep in mind, this game was in pieces when I got it, so I don't have a "before" photo for reference.

I procured another transformer, but there is no way I want to even test with it until the short circuit is located/resolved.

Are there any concerns with me cutting the GI wires entering the left side of the fuse card and using a molex connector join for easy transformer removal/install as I troubleshoot and repair the burnt wire?
20180702_210435 (resized).jpg20180702_210435 (resized).jpg

#29 5 years ago
Quoted from xeneize:

Here's a photo of the backside of the fuse card. There is nothing insulating it from the backbox panel. Should there be?


Pretty sure my Black Knight had card insulation behind the fuse card - but it looked crappy enough that I'll be retrofitting some 3mm bakelite there for safety.

[Edit] look at the second picture that includes the fuse card here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-knight-clubmembers-only/page/22#post-4475852
And here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/worst-hackrepair-you-ever-saw/page/35#post-4470758
.

Quoted from xeneize:

Are there any concerns with me cutting the GI wires entering the left side of the fuse card and using a molex connector join for easy transformer removal/install as I troubleshoot and repair the burnt wire?

With the amount of current going to the G.I, it will have to be heavy duty connectors or multiple pin connections to share the current load.
But I would not leave any introduced G.I. connectors there long term as they become another potential point of failure.

#30 5 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

With the amount of current going to the G.I, it will have to be heavy duty connectors or multiple pin connections to share the current load.
But I would not leave any introduced G.I. connectors there long term as they become another potential point of failure.

Agree, the GI circuit carries up to 20 amps. A tyical .093 molex pin can carry 14 amps.

This is why the single GI connector going into BK power supply boards is regularly burned. I've seen them get so hot, they desolder themselves from the circuit board.

#31 5 years ago

OK, great feedback on the molex use for a GI circuit, guys. I was worried about the amperage. Schwaggs , thanks for confirming that the .093 caps out at 14A. Looks like I will need to desolder/solder.

Holy smokes, Quench (pun intended)! There is definitely insulation behind that card. I feel like we may have found our culprit. Those photos really helped.

Now, to cut open the back side of that transformer and replace the fried wire. I'll post again once that is complete.

2 weeks later
#32 5 years ago

Update!

Geez, repairing a transformer (if you want to do it right) requires some oddball stuff that you most likely won't have laying around.

I got lucky and sourced a spare transformer for cheap and was tempted just to drop it in, but knew I would never get around to fixing the original one.

So, I removed the old transformer, cut through the paper, tape, and found the lug in question. Removed the old wire and replaced it with a color correct match.

Next up was to order insulation paper, cambric tape, and bakelite (for building the "insulation board" behind the fuse card). The bakelite had to come all the way from China as I could not seem to find it domestically.

Got it all properly rebuilt and reinstalled last night and let the game sit in attract mode for about a half hour with no issues.

Talk about a ton of money (comparatively speaking), waiting, and rework all because of a stinking piece of missing cardstock behind the fuse card!

Going to mark this one as resolved again and tip my hat one more time to Quench and Schwaggs for the help! You guys rock!

#33 5 years ago

Congrats on getting it back up and running!

As time goes on, these transformers are going to be gold. Nice that you saved it!

#34 5 years ago

Really glad you repaired the transformer and properly isolated the fuse card from the ground shield!
Well done bringing it back to safe operating order and saving that transformer

Speaking of which, anyone got any spare early eighties Bally AS-3071-2 transformers?

#35 5 years ago

Sorry Quench I don't have any spare Bally units.

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