(Topic ID: 72432)

Cheap Squeak blowing F3 4amp fuse- what next?

By Aladdin

10 years ago


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  • 32 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 years ago by Aladdin
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 10 years ago

Ok, I'm pretty sure that my Spy Hunter Cheap Squeak is shorting and blowing the F3 4amp fuse.
I just removed the D6 Diode as it looked burned. Left that diode off the board but still the fuse blows.
I checked the continuity of the diode pin points to the TP3 ground and got a reading. (Board disconnected)
See photo.
So now if that means a bad capacitor, where do I start? The caps visually all look good.
Do I just start desoldering the caps one by one and see if the fuse blows?

My other thought is to use test clips to the incoming J1 connector until the fuse blows.
image-6.jpgimage-6.jpgimage-526.jpgimage-526.jpg

#3 10 years ago

Replaced the three caps and D6 Diode. Still blows F3.
Guess I need to replace the big cap too.

Puzzled? image-677.jpgimage-677.jpg

#4 10 years ago

Replaced the big cap, 4700uf. Still blows. %#%$@!%^^#$@!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I then used an alligator clip to test each wire coming into the sound board.
The solid orange wire blew the fuse. Since this orange wire was the only wire connected to the sound board, my hypothesis now is that the orange wire is shorting with something. I wonder if I take that orange wire and touch a ground point, the fuse will blow. Either something on the board is allowing that orange wire to short to ground.
OR if that orange wire is supposed to touch a ground, then some other wire somewhere is shorting to ground.

I'm getting so close!!!!!

#5 10 years ago

Did you run a diode test on those power amp transistors? Also, you should probably re-flow solder on your connector pins if you haven't already.

#6 10 years ago

What fog said also the tantalum caps like to short on this board. I have had them explode on me more than once. In particular check C17 and C22. I think those are the ones that i have found burned up and shorted.

#7 10 years ago

It's been a while since I worked on mine for Kings Of Steel but I think barakandl is correct. C17 and C22. They look okay visually but may have shorted. That's what happened to mine at least.

#8 10 years ago

Thanks gents.
At this point it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
I tried to change the BR1 on the power board last night, but I have no idea how to get that desoldered and off the board? Anyone have any tips on how to remove a Bridge Rectifier off of AS-2518-54?

#9 10 years ago

Desolder it. Helps to preheat with a heat gun a little beforehand (you want it hot but don't cook it). Steve Kulpas page has mounting instructions: http://stevekulpa.net/pinball/bally_54mount.htm

#10 10 years ago

You got good avice, please it take... If the bridge was bad the fuse would blow regardless if the sound board was disconnected. Don't blindly replace parts that are easily testable. You can end up doing damage.

Use diode test on your DMM to test the power transistor on the sound board. If the power transistor tests good, lift one leg of suspect caps and test them for short.

The bridge is easily tested (made of discreet diodes in this case i believe) as well with DMM on diode test.

If you are unsure how to test these components, there are great youtube videos available.

Andrew

#11 10 years ago

Thanks, I'll check the Transistors on the sound board. I'm trying to learn what components create shorts and would blow a fuse with just one wire attached to the board.

So far, diodes, transistors and caps. I'll check the C17 and C22.
Would the 5volt regulator on the solenoid power board be a suspect too?

It's very frustrating that nothing appears burned, blown or leaking. I tested all the diodes on the power module and they all check out. The BR1, I was told, can do funky things if one of its diodes is shot. I had extra BR's so I was going to just change it. I quickly learned that I dont have the proper desoldering tools.

Thanks to everyone for the help!

#12 10 years ago

I would focus on the sound board. The amplifier could also cause a short and blow fuses.

You need a good iron that can transfer a lot of heat to desolder these briges. I typically put my pen iron around 800 degrees and use the pen iron tip and my desoldering iron tip at the same time to get enough heat to melt the solder around these massive traces. Adding a touch of new solder can help get things flowing too.

#13 10 years ago

Thanks Andrew. I'm going to slow down and take a breather on this. I'm just really excited to get this back up and running 100% before the holidays so I can give this to my neighbor who wants their first pin. Also a shout out to a tech named Randy Gietzen of peakpinball.com here in Denver that gave me some tech tips! Thanks Randy.

#14 10 years ago

About to check the transistors, still learning.
I checked the D4 and D5 diodes. They both showed .77
That's odd since they should show 0.0. All the other diodes show correct at 0.0.image-43.jpgimage-43.jpg
See pic:

#15 10 years ago

Depending on the circuit, you may not be able to test a diode in circuit. Some times you have to remove one leg.

A normal test of a diode is you should get no reading in one direction (open, blank, or OL depending on your meter) and around .4 to .7 when you reverse the leads.

If you have a diode that reads open in both directions, it is bad. If you have a diode that reads short in both directions it is bad.

Grab a few uninstalled diodes and transistors and probe them with your meter to get familiar with readings you should see.

#16 10 years ago

Here is what you should focus on.

Pages from Kings of Steel Manual with 11x17 schem.pngPages from Kings of Steel Manual with 11x17 schem.png

I just reviewed the schematic. D6 and D9 are likely candidates for blowing the 12v fuse.

The LM7805 i dont think fails in a short mode (anyone). every failure i have seen of a 7805 is no 5v output.

The diodes, test them all. Not sure what the purpose of some of them are (two 1n4001 in series??). I am not great at theory, just practical side of replacement failed components.

The amps can short 12v to ground. You can probably detect this with your dmm.

#17 10 years ago

Thanks for the schem Andrew, that really helped clear things up.
The #10 wire (+12V unreg) is grounding out before D6. (I left D6 off the board and the F3 still blew)
-remember, I connected just one wire to the board (J1- #10 +12V unreg orange wire)

That leaves C9, C10, C8 as suspects or something else before the Cheap Squeak board.

Should the C9, C10, C8 caps prevent the #10 wire from connecting to ground or do they normally allow #10 to touch ground?

If they normally allow the #10 wire to connect to ground, there is some other issue than the Cheap Squeak board.

We are getting close!

#18 10 years ago

Caps block DC voltage. If they are shorted, voltage will go straight to ground and blow a fuse as the power supply will draw as much power as possible in that situation. Replace those caps.

Post edited by thedefog : wrote open instead of shorted - typo

#19 10 years ago

If it is shorted with D6 removed - I suspect C10 being bad.... it's the only thing left as I have never seen a ceramic (C8 and C9) short to ground (unless physically damaged).
Tantalum capacitors are great in that they tend to last forever. They are bad in that when they do go bad - they short out. A shorted C10 will toss a direct short across your incoming power.

In response to Andrew above regarding diodes --
D6 is your "ah shit" blocker -- keeps negative voltage from hitting regulator.
D7 and D8 - two 1N4001 diodes in series -- this is an often used trick to provide a small forward voltage drop in an effort run U9 (7805) a little cooler.

#20 10 years ago

Copy that. I'm replacing the C10 if they have it at Radio Shack!
I'll report back on this tmrw.

#21 10 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

D6 is your "ah shit" blocker

Lol! Never heard them called that. I think that is better than calling them suicide diodes.

#22 10 years ago

Question- Radio Shack only has a 4.7 electrolytic not Tantalum.
Can I replace the 4.7 tantalum with a 4.7 electrolytic?
Both are polarized.image-919.jpgimage-919.jpg

#23 10 years ago

In this position - yes, you can.

#24 10 years ago

Sorry to say but changing the C10 didn't do the trick.
The fuse did burn slower and the flippers energized a little.
The issue must be somewhere else that's ultimately causing this.

Time to call in the pros. Should I just send in all three boards?
(Solenoid, Cheap Squeak, Power Board)

-OR-, wait for the repairman?

#25 10 years ago

C10 ruled out. D6 still pulled and it shorts? Only thing left is C8 and C9 but they are unlikely. With plug removed from J1 - measure a short between 12V and ground?

Check for small solder bridges and splashes?

Ed

#26 10 years ago

D6 wasn't pulled. Back during my troubleshooting it was though.

G-P-E, when you say, measure a short between 12V and ground. You mean just take my DMM and measure between the #10 orange wire and ground right?

#27 10 years ago

Darn, I thought for sure it would have been a cap.

#28 10 years ago
Quoted from Aladdin:

D6 wasn't pulled. Back during my troubleshooting it was though.
G-P-E, when you say, measure a short between 12V and ground. You mean just take my DMM and measure between the #10 orange wire and ground right?

Nope -- with no plug installed on the J1 connector. Measure resistance directly across that new C10 you just installed. With the exception of a brief, minor 'blip' you see at first (C10 cap charging/discharging) - you should see an open circuit.

Ed

#29 10 years ago

I threw in the towel, Randy is coming out on Thursday. I've moved on to tear down and shop job. I'm good at replacing bulbs and rubbers.

#30 10 years ago

I will post what is wrong with the game here for future reference. Thanks to all for your help. I increased my knowledge and confidence on this troubleshoot. Thank you.

1 month later
#31 10 years ago

Update-
Thanks again to those who helped me on this. As a matter of fact, I now have an Elektra that I am using my new found Sound Board knowledge on (thanks to this thread)

Here is my Spy Hunter shop job thread for those who are interested
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/spy-hunter-tear-down-and-shop-job

The board is coming back from the Tech this week, we'll plug her in and see what happens!
A 6803 Controller Chip was replaced and ROMS.
I think there were several issues in play since we would remove the D6 and the thing would short and blow the F3. But after the Tech reflowed solder, etc, etc, we got feature sounds but no background sounds (Peter Gunn Theme).
I double checked to ensure that all sound settings were correct.
Stay tuned!

1 week later
#32 10 years ago

Update, the sound board works now! The tech, Randy, replaced the 6803 controller and U3 U4 eproms.

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