Good rename. I'm going to use shazaam moving forward for sure.

I've seen GAP offer Pinside deals cheaper than what he sells on Ebay, and he is a dealer.

Yeah, he is in love with his AC/DC, but that is not why he sold his AFM. He sold a CFTBL on here for a good price, way lower than Ebay also.

My point is, I see crazy prices everywhere. CL, Ebay, RGP, Pinside, etc..., I don't believe one place gouges more than another. Also, like to point out that each site you can get great deals if you watch carefully and know what to look for.

Well, the fact is Noobs will always overpay, in every hobby, because they don't know enough info or contacts to get a good price. Not saying that is good, just how it is.
If a seller wants to put what you think is a high price out there then so be it. Doesn't mean you have to buy it at that price.
However, I THINK your point is that a lot of people on this forum are saying that, what you feel is an exorbitant price for a pin is a really good deal. All I can give in answer to that is this; location plays a lot into prices, some people just aren't willing to wait and search for a better deal and most importantly for this topic, people shouldn't comment on whether something is a good deal unless they truly know what they are talking about. My two cents.
Note this is not a comment against any particular person.

I will give you a nickel for your two cents. Prices are higher here in the midwest.

Hey Dave,

Yeah, I thought that was too much for the condition. Personally, I like machines that aren't in HUO condition. This way I can decide how much I want to put into it and how far to restore it. Kind of like the Space Shuttle you sold me. I thought that was a fair price for the condition it was in, and I put an Ed Cheung playfield overlay on it, got a couple mechanical things working, and bought a new ramp. Is it mint? No, but it looks damn good and plays well.

What are your thoughts about buying a machine at the Chicago Pinball Expo? I suppose like anywhere else, you'll get some overpriced stuff and some deals as well.

Sorry to thread hijack. Noob question... I see the term routed used a lot. What does that mean?

A machine that was on rout for public play . . . out on location at a movie theater, pizza place, bowling alley, etc.

Noobs are excited and have that itch we all remmber so well. They want it now. Just for argument sake say said pin goes for $4000 in your area. Noob is willing to pay $500 over price to get a nice one now. That's not unheard of. Now he's at $4500. Now say pins in noobs area are higher than average, $500 more. Now he's at $5000. Then he had planed on paying for shipping + extra fees, etc. Another $500. Now he's at $5500. So he sees a ad somewhere for an over priced pin, $5500. He was planning on spending that anyways so why not. Now he can go pick up and play before he buys for the same price. And he wants it now. Makes since to said noob. Just not you. That's how I'm figuring it at least.

Want prices to come down? Don't buy overpriced games, done.

No, not to me at least. But I am not in the market (already have a LOTR and SM) so I have not shopped around to really make a good comparison. This is why I have not given my opinion on their value, up until now. I usually won't chime in when people try to sell but will when people ask for buying advice. Make sense?
When I do buy a used pin, I know the costs to fix the game specific parts, how hard they are to get, what all the price guides and ebay are quoting, etc... I will not buy a pin for more than I think I can sell it in case I don't like it, find something better or just need the cash. Luckily I have found some great deals up here in Alaska.

"5k LOTR HUO?!? PFFFFT! Not in my area! That thing would be gone in seconds here! I wouldn't let a routed LOTR go for less than 5 BILLION dollars. Maybe do a trade for a small private island...and some cash."

Was my impression a bit too hacky? Maybe I need to work on my accent?

Why are people paying so much for some titles? I don't know this answer for everyone, but I can definitely speak for myself! I was looking for a NIB LOTR LE about a month ago or so. The only ones I could find that were brand new (not HUO - not lightly or heavily routed) was one at Marco Specialties & the other was at Automated Services. Marco's was $7.5k and Automated's was $8.2k. While I admit I'm no math major, Marco was the better priced unit so I went with it. Now, I realize that was quite a few bucks to pay for this. But what was my choice? They were the only two new, in-box units I could find nationally at the time, and that's what I wanted since it will be placed in my home. Ebay had none outside of a single, worn looking example and knowing how fast pinball prices have been rising I thought it's now or never so I dived in head first. I have no plans of selling this for the foreseeable future and when I do, whatever the market price is at the time is what I'll ask for it. (higher or lower) My intention was simply to pick up a great example of this title as it will be with me for a long time. Believe me when I say I wish I had picked one up years ago when they were far more reasonably priced, but I wasn't into pinball then. Oh well, live & learn...

Playfully playing devil's advocate. Just saying it now....

So, let's say someone has an average AFM on eBay. And say they decide to go for broke and put a "no reserve" auction up on it. Now, say some new person who has no pins in their home at all flashbacks to 1995-1996 when they played it at an arcade/putt putt golf place/bowling alley/laser tag place where AFM was, and nostalgia kicks in heavily on their heart, which always leads to their wallet. So they go nuts with the bidding, their goal in life until that auction is over is to win AFM. And say it goes up to $8k until the auction is over.

I say that because, outside of the ownership leve of the bidder of the machine, JUST THAT happened on eBay last month, and now nearly ANY AFM is $8k right out of the gate. I think I have seen one AFM go for $7k since then - ALL others have started at $8k....

Back to our hypothetical scenario, now that auction ending has a ripple effect throughout the entire pin community as EVERYONE that ever thought of selling their AFM sets $8k as the new benchmark, and just like that, a portion of the community and the hobby has changed.

I say that because there's one crucial and critical thing that new owners lack: patience. For the most part, new pin owners *ZING!* do not have the time and patience to research a machine, do a price check here at Pinside, ask around, read some reviews here or at IPDB, or install the Visual Pinball emulator and at LEAST play it there. Most have their nest egg saved up, and they browse the internet for an hour, and it seems like all the pins on earth are drying up so it's time to buy NOW. It's a shame because the new buyers get totally owned, and there are some shameless sellers at ALL avenues of this hobby - here , KLOV, RPG, ePay, etc - that take total advantage of new buyer's gullibility and lack of understanding - and they milk that for all it's worth. This hits especially close to home as I almost got routed by purchasing a JP for $2200 in less than routed condition, and yes, I got my $$ back.

New owners overpaying and some sellers completely taking advantage of that lack of knowledge = very bad taste in my mouth regarding the hobby. I am NOT implying that happens here at Pinside; I'm implying that happens at ALL avenues of this hobby, and the results can affect everyone given enough time.

Life is Good .

You guys put way too much into this stuff. If I felt the need to preside over which ads are overpriced then I'd get out of the market entirely. I can think of few things more tedious. Hobbies are supposed to be fun.

Nice and all but the simple fact is that the thread about how long have you been collecting tells the tale. MANY, Many new folks and with money. Plus unlike a few years ago they have the internet to gear what games to buy and iPads to play some version. So double and triple the market, condense it by having forums with A lists and add exposure and you have daily escalating values. Its not about patience its about quantity.

I concur. They should also be reasonably affordable .

I jest - don't take too much offense. Any new owner trying to snag MM or AFM as their first pin is going to take it with ankles held. But when I see LW3's going for $2k or TFTC's going for $3k or JD's/HS2's/DM's/F14's going for $2500 - my radar is going up and my lights and siren are blaring. No new owner should get that burned - THAT is how we divert new owners, new life, and new money away from this hobby. And I'm not talking about new owners that WILLINGLY put that kind of money up knowing full-well what they're doing. I'm talking about new owners that still have their "training wheels" on when it comes to knowing what to look for and what to pay and a seller/retailer/dealer knowing FULL WELL who they are dealing with and the buyer's level of expertise/knowledge and taking FULL advantage of it.

That I detest.

And please don't mind the disclaimers. I put them up because, man, some people here take things WAY too personally at times. Just practicing the CYA method ....

I partly agree with this. Sometimes it is about patience, sometimes it is about quantity exactly as you stated - and sometimes, just sometimes - it's all about having the money and the pin just seems to "fall in your lap" without you really looking too hard. Like my TFTC - wasn't looking that hard for one. Found jk2171's and made an offer. 48 hours later, I was in Chicago picking it up .

I definitely see your point, and I think it's partly your idea plus mine, and then sometimes - it's all about being in the right place at the right time with cash in hand and gas in the tank .

If somebody has $8000 to spend on an AFM, then I admire them for being smart enough, and fortunate enough to have a job to support that kind of hobby. So basically, what I am understanding, these people are smart enough to earn/save 8000 bucks, but they are not smart enough to spend it. They have the patience to save, but not the patience to research the value of something?

If somebody is selling a 4000 dollar pin to a person who has 8000 dollars in disposable income that can purchase a toy on a whim, I'm guessing the person doing the selling needs the money more. I would also figure that the person doing the buying needs the advice the least.

Really? If that is their "goal in life", no matter the cost, that one should be obtainable.

It is just simply supply and demand. If all AFMs that are available on the market are listing at 7k to 8k, and they are selling at that number, then that is their worth, objectively. If someone new comes into the market and finds all the AFMs at that price, and they buy one, how exactly did they get owned? Did they get owned because a few months/years previously it was a 3.5k machine all day long? I know I feel like I am getting owned everytime I pump gas these days because I remember when it was a lot cheaper, but that is just what it costs now so...

If they buy one that is 8k when there were a few that were available for 3.5k to 4k but they just didn't know where to look, then that is buyer beware and a lesson they learned the hard way. But anyone who has 8k to throw down on something as pure luxury item as a pinball machine isn't hurting all that bad.

The "goal in life" was tongue-in-cheek . After all, everyone spends responsibly and no one ever gets themselves into debt by putting emotions ahead of logic in their decision-making . Joking aside, I completely concur with you on this part - people that can afford big-name pins and have that kind of money to burn - that is absolutely cool.

My scenario was if someone was a new owner, had no strategy, experience, or understanding of the pin world and just started bidding madly without taking into consideration what they were doing. Let me make this very clear as I've noticed a LOT of A-list pin owners get way bent out of shape about this topic: if you pop $8k on a pin and you can afford it comfortably - have at it. I have no qualms with it - that's cool. What I'm getting at is when people emotionally get wrapped up in buying stuff with no prior experience and get themselves way in over their head.

As far as popping that kind of money and being able to comfortably afford it - dude - you go for it. Do I speak from jealousy - maybe a little bit. I don't mind admitting that; then again, other hobbies I have keep me from spending that kind of money on A-list pins. Without tooting my horn, I assure you, if I wanted to build $8k up and buy AFM - I could - BSEE degrees can make that happen.

I have really noticed A-list collectors get way defensive about this. I am not saying anyone is not smart for spending that kind of money on a pin. If one can afford it, by all means, have at it. I've said it before and I'll stick to it again - keeps my B-list pin prices low and more for me! And to be honest, I know I've unintentionally rubbed some people the wrong way here in regards to AFM and MM - that's not my intention, and I've apologized for that in other threads. My intention is to state that people with disposable income should take it upon themselves to educate themselves, do some research and some homework, think things through, make sure it's what they want - THEN - go buy their toy. But we live in America - the land of instantaneous gratification no matter what the cost, and I just don't want to see that happen to new owners.

Bottom line, when people are flipping pins onto unsuspecting new owners for way more than they're worth, it burns new owners out and keeps the new blood and money from getting into this hobby. I'm not talking about people with good educations/situations in life that make mad money and can buy MB, MM, AFM, CV, TZ, TAF, CC, BBB all in a week and happily sigh to themselves. I'm talking about new owners with $1500 - $2000 that are looking for a good deal, then find, say, a JM for $2500 that's in routed shape. To the new buyer, it looks great - you know - typical wipe the playfield with a towel and install some new bulbs real quick pin. Then the seller says all the right things, plays on their emotions, and before you know it - the new buyer shells out more than they can or the credit card comes out and now they've done two things: 1. Overpaid on a pin and 2. Got themselves starting to dig a financial troubles hole. And I'm not naive enough to believe that every pinball owner doesn't let that happen - it happens - we are human beings and we make judgmental mistakes like that. I just don't want to see that happen, and if that means I'm typing out "Shazaam!", one can bet their bottom dollar and their last pin in their game room that I will .

Ok I'm curious, let's set this scenario up. Someone joins the hobby and has like $10k to throw around. They find a Starship Troopers being offered for $4k. That movie plays well into the nostalgia of the buyer; seeing the pin he just goes nuts and dives head-first in and buys it. Pin is a solid players pin, well taken care of - not a router yet not a CQ or HUO - and the buyer is happy. The seller EASILY knows that game is worth less than half of what he just sold it for.

If you saw that transaction happen, would that be "right" in your eyes? Or if you were the buyer and you learned how drastically you overpaid, would you feel like you weren't taken advantage of...? Would you REALLY be able to say to yourself "Hey, my pin works great, so what if I paid more than double what it's worth."

I agree, if someone is willing to pay or drastically overpay, no gun is being held to anyone's head, they're responsible for their own actions. But there is some "right and wrong" when buying/selling/trading pins, and that's the foundation for this entire thread - the potential "poisoning of our own waters", and I don't mean just Pinside.

My scenario-based definition of owned: paying $2500 for a LW3. Even if that pin was NIB, you wouldn't see a soul pay that amount of money for it.

For the rest of your comment, please see my "book" above this post . I agree with you with a tongue-in-cheek reply: I need gas to get to work; I don't need a pin to get to work .

Once again, if someone can afford that kind of money on a pin - GO for it. Pin people that buy AFM and MM are similar to car people that buy a Dodge Viper - you don't sweat the small stuff .

Actually happens to almost every pin sold now. 9/10 of every pin sold on Ebay - Completed Sales - are more than any price guide I have seen. At this point, too many are being sold high for me to think twice on what somebody would pay for SST.

Could be wrong, as I don't know you, but I bet you don't sell your JP for the exact same amount you bought it for in a couple of years.

I can honestly say, I wouldn't sell ANY of my pins for the same price I bought them. I couldn't afford to leave that much money on the table as I don't have as much money as the person who could afford to buy them.

You always had everyone pissing and moaning about the "price police" and what asses they were.
Finally ran them all away and now I see people here listing pins for recockulus prices (to me), I laugh to myself, and then in 4 minutes there are 15 posts talking about they "wish they were closer" and "I'd do that in a second." Blows my mind.

This is why the whole "shazaam! What a great price on a sweet looking pin" thing is so funny. Peeps can't say you were dogging their price as most will think you were complementing it like everyone else does regardless of whether it is a good deal. I like the code wired. I'm pushing it!

Ahhh...gotcha..ok I'm in the loop now.

Fair enough. As for me selling JP (if I do), I want to say I'd sell for slightly below whatever the average selling price would be at that time. Say it goes up to $2500, I'd sell for $2200 - $2400. Even if I took a loss, 1. Someone would get a nice JP and 2. I paid $1900 for my JP, and if I sold it for $2200 - 2400 when it was $2500 average price, then I still got at least $300 back (since I originally paid $1900) even if some people might say I "lost money" by selling below the average price.

So, I guess with that logic, yes, I do agree with you.

Life is Good .

Well my buddy just picked up a HUO TSPP and A super clean Gorgar from a Pinsider for 4k. Not sure you'll find that pricing on ebay

That argument makes no sense. Its not a 4k pin anymore...it was but the demand has changed that.

I cant disagree with any of the comments thats been posted on this topic, because they are all true. The fact is , buying a pinball is not any diffrent than buying anything else. You have to do your homework or your going to get burnt.

If you dont do your homework, sooner or latter, your going to come across a pinball for sale that some little old lady in Pasadena bought NIB and she only played it on Sundays after church. Better buy now because its not going to be around by the end of the day!

Wow long thread, but answer this nOOb's question, isnt their a bluebook list of various pins that lists price thats updated every so often? Shouldn't that be the gold standard of the used pin market? With that you have a benchmark price where to expect cost depending on condition?

The trouble is everybody thinks they are the best salesman and if they talk their sale up they will make the deal. This is what skews the numbers and how to price a pin accurately. It should be based on objective stuff like artwork condition and electronics function.

While it works for the weak minded, it will not work for a Jedi Master...

"These are not the droids you are looking for."

droids.jpg

Seriously?? Its not like someone did not search CL, EBay and then random google forums. The poeple shcoked are the ones watching prices go past them. Sorry, but the buyer that overpayed has the money and did the research and chose to up the ante to have the game. Sadly the other buyers in like position, and there are more now continue the trend.
Its the current market.

Seriously people. This is simple stuff. IMHO, it's about opportunity, desire, emotion, and supply. That's a dynamic environment. You can't script/model/predict or constrain it.

Can we try this?

The next time somebody decides to post a FS message, wherever that may be, and before you hit send with your opinion regarding price, simply locate a comparable, current example of the same pin (that's also FS), in the same region of the country to support your opinion.

Past performance is no indicator of current or future trending. If you're going to make a comparison, it's gotta be apples to apples, in real time, right here and now.

Thanks. I'll be interested to see how it all shakes out.

Any "benchmark price" is meaningless, other than to drive people's anguish over whether or not they feel someone is getting ripped off, or being greedy. Any individual pinball machine's "market value" is only driven by one simple thing:

What is currently available on the market (eBay, Pinside, Mr. Pinball, RGP, Craigslist and various vendors) and what prices are they at. That is the reality. If no one is willing to pay that much, then prices will drop, but as long as people are paying at that price, they will stay there and most likely go up.

"Worth" is something completely different and is totally subjective. The "market value" for MM might be 10k or higher, but I wouldn't pay that much for one, so its worth to me is less. I could go on a rant how it is priced way too crazy, but that would just be my opinion.

Mr Pinball puts one out every year and list pratically every pinball ever made along with some other intresting pinball info. The cost is $24. Very cheap for the amount of info. thats in it.

In other words , Supply and demand.

Agree, meant to put the words originally purchased for 4000.

Point is- market dictates what a pin sells for, and if enough people have money, and the supply is low, prices will go up. No need to educate anybody, the market does it.

I just wanted to give you all a real-life scenario of this topic. I just bought my first pin, JP, for $2395 plus $375 off eBay yesterday morning. So I'm in $2770 so far (plus the $20 spent on buying 2 little dinos to add to it.) Per my asking around the last few weeks, I was told I should be paying around $1600 or I was being ripped off. I looked on eBay, Craigslist, forums, classifieds ads, you name it. The local pinball shop quoted me at $3500 to even start looking for a machine for me, with the disclaimer that Data East pins are crap and couldn't be warrantied because it would break consistently. I couldn't find anything close by at all, so I immediately knew I'd have to pay for shipping if I wanted one. I saw more "wanted" ads than "for sale" ads for JP on every forum and classified site. I asked around for reviews and opinions on a "professional" selling company who had the machines listed for $2395 plus shipping and would take 3-4 weeks to arrive , and was told by multiple people on different forums not to trust them because I would not be getting a quality product. I tried to have an email conversation with the guy who has listed a JP on eBay 7 times now and is currently at $1600, but he wouldn't give me straight answers about the problems he had already listed it had in the description, wanted $600 for shipping, and said it would "surely arrive damaged" if he had to ship it. Two other current eBay ads have buy it now options for $6,795 and $3,195, plus shipping.
Yesterday morning my phone alert went off that a JP was for sale that has been in a home for the last 3 years, in great condition, and already has LEDs, Cliffy protectors, post sleeves, pincab protectors, original manual, and a mint condition topper. Buy It Now price of $2395 plus $375 shipping. Seller has his phone number posted on the ad for questions, and 100% feedback. I jumped at it with no regrets. That is the exact machine I wanted, with the mods that I wanted, at a price that I was willing to pay. So far the seller has been in constant contact with me, is getting it ready to ship without any extra packing charges (like everyone else wanted to charge,) and is even adding additional LEDs at no extra charge to me as an "anniversary gift" after I told him this was our wedding anniversary present to ourselves. I have no plans to ever sell this machine, so I am not worried about resell price. I am a person that did the research, did the searching, knows the local market is not there for me to be able to simply wait around for one to show up. There is not a single pinball "in the wild" in this city per my searching, the YellowBook listings, and per the local pinball shop owner who concurred that there are no routes in this area. I will gladly and happily play my little $2800 JP in my home and just be happy that I have one instead of waiting and wishing for one to come along local in the "currently acceptable" price range.

Disclaimer: The local shop has my absolute favorite pin, Addams, for $9K. I easily walked away from it. They also have a HUO MM for $15K that I gladly kept walking past, because I am not spending anywhere near that much for a pin. I spent what I was comfortable with for what I really wanted and am happy with what I got.

Congrats on your jp blondetall. Glad you found what you were looking for. Sounds like you did your homework and found a deal you are content with.

blondetall ,
I just got into the hobby about a year ago and I am noticing just what your saying. Pinballs are over the place on pricing. The Addams Family is a good example. Most on CL, E Bay and Mr Pinball adds are between $5800 and $8000+ but if you look around and be patient you can find one for around $4000 or under which is in line with other machines.
I found a Addams Family just a short drive from me for $3500 but it looked like it been through just about everything you can throw at one. The playfield was rough, cabinet was all tore up and the whole thing needed a good shopping out. At the same time ,I came across one that has been in a home for the past 12 years and the owner just had it shopped out and cleaned before he put it up for sale. The inside of it even had a new look still after 20 years. He said he wanted it out of the house and sold it to me for $3800 shipped.
He is happy because he found a quick buyer and I am happy because I got a beautiful Addams Family at a great price. We are both smiling

Congrats BT.

****

If money's trading hands, it's business, not personal, and if you're not involved in the transaction it's certainly not personal to you. If the price police want to be truly helpful they could post new topics with links to cheap pins or quality pins for cheap instead of busting chops in seller's topics and getting offended at high prices. If you see somebody about to get ripped off, link him to a cheaper alternative!

What's needed are price social workers, not price police, but helping people is less fun than kicking the door down and arresting the bad men for ripping off new owners.

A fair price is what the thing goes for. If you can't find an available example at that price within a few months, it's not really at that price anymore, is it?

Listed where? I've had auto search engine feeds that were supposed to find anything on Craigslist or eBay plus I have actively checked both daily, and I didn't see it in the classifieds market here. I'm betting that you don't still have it, because at least 5 other people have said on this site alone that they are actively looking for one, and they need to jump on it if you do.

It frankly blows my mind that AFM has become an $8k pin, in average condition. I think we're in tulip mania territory on this one.