I like Metallica. Tron's OK. Avengers and X-Men suck. and I haven't played AC/DC so I can't comment on that.

I dont believe anything a guy says who owns a babypac

And nine of the top 27 are Sterns. What's your point? That you can spin numbers?

Ha. Taste is definitely subjective.

Here. Imagine this and be honest with yourself...

Williams is still in business and making MM and AFM. Brand new in box for the same price as any of the new Sterns. 99% of people would buy an MM or AFM over a Stern. That's a fact. And that's a SAD fact. Stern has produced literally NOTHING that is better than games made close to 20 friggin' years ago. Why? Zero innovation.

Now go ahead and tell me how with all things being equal you would buy an Avengers NIB over a MM. Sure bro.

Why'd you stop at 27? Oh, because that's a Stern title. Lol.

Why did you stop at 20? Because 21 is a Stern? I see what you did there.

No, Cutie. Jar155 pulled out that number a few posts ago. I didn't.

A SWING and a miss.....

*yawn*

Now go ahead and tell me how with all things being equal you would buy an Avengers NIB over a MM.

LOL! Thee most coveted game MM (besides maybe BBB or Pinball Circus) over Avengers? Hulk smash puny castle!

HulkSmash.jpg

Actually it proves mine. How many machines has Stern produced in the last 16 years? Much less than how many were produced in the years before. So in less time with less games, and against more manufacturers, Stern has had a massive impact in the rankings. Try again.

There needs to be some regulations in this business. Some of the things that people do, they would land themselves in very hot water in any other business.

Stern is making solid games right now. When you put a stock AFM next to a stock ACDC Back in Black the difference is readily apparent. This is no way means the AFM is any less fun today than it was ten years ago . . . but technology is advancing.

Anything in particular ?

If you mean pricing on new games. Consider what the value of the US Dollar is.

In 1981 you could buy a new pin for about $2400.
In 1996 you could buy a new pin for about $3600.
In 2013 you could buy a new pin for about $6000.

If you want cheaper prices. You either cut hell out of quality, or raise the value of the US dollar.

If you try and regulate it like was tried with oil here in the late 1970's, you get long lines and no gas.

If you mean something else, I digress.

LTG : )

Another yawn, after you've had MM and AFM you want something new. Hmmm, haven't seen much innovation from Bally/Williams in the last 20 years, oh yeah, they went out of business and Stern didn't. Don't forget if Bally was still selling games they wouldn't be priced the way they were 20 years ago, they would still be priced higher than Stern, just like they were way back when.

So to answer your question, yes. I would buy a new Avengers in a second because I've already played MM for 20 years. There's no need for Stern to reinvent the wheel. Four legs, a cabinet with a playfield, a backbox and a display is enough for me. If you think Bally would have deviated much from the basics if they stayed in business you would be wrong, if they did it wouldn't be pinball anymore.

And....ask Jpop what he might think about that!

Stern designs would 100% benefit from about $200-300 being added to the BOM to buy better raw materials to make their games. The designs are fine spectacular even, what would really make me want to buy them would be wireforms as thick as BLY/WMS back in the day, better plywood (hell more plywood), some controlled bulbs in the backbox instead of that dreaded single fluorescent light, some better bulb holders, return to decent (solderable) gauge wire, no cheap wire ties to hold on toys, etc.

None of that would break the bank and there's more than enough profit in the current price structure to do it. Sure the dollar has risen, but not by 200% like the price of games. Give a little back and make the games at least on par with the BLY/WMS look/feel (which they never managed to meet in 20 years of making pins).

Dude. Come on. Stern is actively producing games. Obviously they are going to have some machines on the list. I'm not saying that their games on the list are terrible, I'm saying that there is no reason why in 16 years of having the market to themselves that they shouldn't have more pins on that list.

Let me be clear. I don't WANT to hate. I don't want their games to roundly pale in comparison to Williams games. Are they horrible? No. They are passable but where's the Stern pin that just blows people away? Where is Stern's Medieval Madness? It doesn't exist and that is a shame.

Jersey Jack came out of "nowhere" and produced an innovative pin, first time out. Stern hasn't done this because they haven't had to. Why keep making excuses and explaining it away? I'm sure you want awesome pins to play too. What is wrong with demanding more?

It is a fact that when a company has an effective monopoly, they have no reason to innovate so they don't(American car makers in the 70's anyone?). When they don't innovate, the door opens for other companies to knock them on their asses(Japanese car companies in the 70's anyone?)

I'll say it again. If Williams came out tomorrow and said they were producing Medieval Madness for the exact same price as whatever current Stern license, they would own the market...with a 16 year old design. That is sad because there is literally no reason why Stern couldn't produce something equally as compelling. "Good enough" seems to be the moto there.

As time goes on, Stern is going to have no choice. Jersey Jack is only going to get bigger and better. Spooky Pinball is a wildcard, as is Ben Heck.

I didn't ask, I just mailed him a check. I made the leap of faith because he's my favorite designer. It will be amazing to see what he can produce outside of the corporate structure he used to be restrained by. I have passion, but he has passion and vision. I can't design what JPop can but I will certainly be able to appreciate it once he's finished.

There's no help for blind fanboys. Ah well. It's easy to ignore difference in market conditions and anything else if you need to in order to push your faulty agenda.

Jar and I are in agreement that Avengers is one kick ass pin!

Again a silly argument. What's the last new game this guy ever bought.

Let's not go crazy now.

Yep, me too........can't wait

Let's not go crazy now.

Cmon man, its friday! Lets get nuts! Avengers is Awesome!

goinn_bg.jpg

Yes, but it isn't that hard to bring AFM up to more modern appearances. Well...ok...it is a bit costly. But I'd put my AFM up against even a BIB and it would definitely hold its own.

Yup, MM is a great pin. It's easy to look back and say it's better than any Stern, but, how many turkeys did Bally/Williams produce? Bally had their Popeye's as well.

It's called Lord of the Rings.

Quit showing off and take that CV out of your collection!

I'd take AC/DC over AFM all day every day and 10 times on sunday, not that I'd kick AFM out of bed but she ain't as purty...

I've got both. Both have their place.

I'm in, my Hulk is in my all time top five. Everybody will want one six months after they stop making them. Spiderman, Iron Man, and Avengers is the ultimate comic line up.

You played that AFM without gloves

Its worthless now

Sell it to me

Cheap

Yeah, she's gone as of Wednesday night.

Edit: oh, and since you gave me an opening to show off again, here you go!

yes, pinmods must really have blinders on!! Stern has made some great games in past few years!

p

spiderman, Iron Man, and Avengers is the ultimate comic line up.

I think you are forgetting one major comic book team that turned into one hell of an awesome game.

xmen.jpg

But EBDLE feels like a much more solid and high quality machine over everything else because it weighs more.

Stern keeps pinball alive all these years when nobody gave a shit. Now everybody wants to build a game now off all the hard work Stern has done. Yet some still don't get it. They just want to rag on Stern for not innovating when all they were doing was just trying make payroll. Now Stern is making good money and good games and they suck because their prices are too high. Love it.

pappy

Not forgetting X-Men in the least. I'm hoping for maybe one more update to really knock it out of the park. It's close, but it's still one small step behind the others. I think Nightcrawler deserves his own mode so you can choose to activate him. Someone also needs to make a 2/3's scale Wolverine figurine so you can blast the Beast orbit shot without hitting Wolverine. That would almost double the flow of the game. X-Men is very good, but there's still a little room for improvement.

I haven't been able to play it enough to get the strategy down and ruleset, glad you love it!

I think stern has had some really good games and a lot of mediocre games but the thing that bothers me is that they raise prices and cut quality at the same time. How expensive is it to put another coat of clear on a pf or add more Mylar and cliffy like protectors for scoops? Just spending another $20 per game in costs could add to their quality but then they wouldn't make as much money. I like the metal protector they put around the snake but they couldn't have done that to the mystery hole and the coffin magnet?

They also cheapened with the powder coating. Powder coating on avengers and xmen looks great but the acdc premium and Metallica feels more like pair than power deer coat and it is not as durable. Avengers and Metallica premiums don't even have color painted armor or the better side rails. Pros don't have the much needed under rails yet the prices for all models have increased? WOZ might not be a grand slam but at least you can see the quality.

Yes stern did show improvement with the awesome molded hulk toy and sparky and the all metal ramps are really nice but for an msrp of 8k I would like to see more of the little details like you would on a nice luxury car.

As far a distributors getting cut for small orders, I think stern is trying to make its easier for them by having to deal with less distributors. Seems like its mostly the big distributors (automated) that are hoarding games as how can the little guys afford to do it? They may able to sit on a few games but automated is doing it on a huge scale. I'm sure stern knows but they make so much money from automated that they probably don't care. Yes I'm sure they got burned on transformers but they have made up for it with acdc and Metallica.

Maybe it would be better if stern set the price like JJP does?

Who are these people paying $6000 for a new game? I was just remarking to a friend today that Metallica only set me back around $500 more than the LOTR I bought in 2004. I think Gary has done a great job of keeping costs down for the Pro series, while improving the sound, art package and the licenses.

[EDIT: not picking on you Lloyd, but everyone cites the prices of Premiums or LEs, when the Pros are pretty much on par with "legacy" Sterns, or even better in some cases.]

Yep. I thought NIB Metallica Pros were going for under $5000?

LE versions, perhaps ?

LTG : )

$2400 in 1981 is about $6200 today adjusted for inflation. That means pinball prices haven't really increased at all.

Heck, if you talk about real inflation when you factor in food and energy and the prices on precious metals (all three of which are excluded from the federal inflation rate [that is not politics, just a fact in how inflation is determined]) . . . pinball machines are actually cheaper today than in 1981.

Take that Stern and JJP haters, pony up some cash and buy a freaking game would ya?

To get a little bit back on topic: Stern is cutting small distrubtors because they don't sell enough games. Aside that it doesn't make sense to me, is nobody going to wonder why they don't sell that many games? Could it be the games they represent? Or are they just small fish in the pond with no intention of growing bigger?

People are lining up in droves to pre-order Stern LE games before they are announced or even see a picture of the playfield IE: Star Trek, Metallica, AC/DC. Basically Stern can do whatever the hell they want with little or any repercussion to their business. JJP is asking people to fork up money for a game that wont be released for another two years or more before hes delivered the first game they've already paid for lol. I'm sure he wont have a problem getting the cash either. There's no competition in this market.

I think as some others have said, it takes just as much time for Stern to deal with a distributor that sells five games at is does for Stern to deal with a distributor that sells 25-50 games. So from Stern's perspective, why bother with the hassle and support for a smaller distributor?

In the past, when Stern was struggling to meet payroll and keep the doors open, they would sell games to anyone they could so all these small distributors came into existence. Now Stern is doing better and doesn't feel like dealing with the headache. They seem to sell out of all LE's to distributors immediately when they announce.

That is just my opinion. I have no source or anything to support my speculating comment.

Not true at all for either MET or AC/DC.

Plenty of people were bashing the crap out of AC/DC before pictures were released, saying it was a terrible theme. It wasn't until people started realizing what a great pin it was that sales started to really take off.

Same thing with MET. There was very little hype or anticipation about it. It was *after* pictures were released, showing great artwork and a cool layout that people went bonkers. Plenty of people who were not anticipating ordering one did after seeing those pics.

Very true; especially with Metallica.

There were so many posts on Pinside slamming Metallica as a theme and saying Iron Maiden would be way better and just about anything would be better. Even some of the distributors seemed a little luke warm on it as a theme. When Stern released that video on Metallica talk about an eruption from pinball community . . . then the scarcities hit.