(Topic ID: 178110)

Change.org Petition: Gary Stern Replace Defective Playfields

By kpg

7 years ago


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-1
#351 7 years ago
Quoted from ExtremePinball:

I keep reading about the "small percentage". Another poster claims 1-2% of the playfields are affected.
Allow me to introduce a healthy dose of Reality:
1. The Ghostbusters pro at The Pinball Hall of Fame is ghosted in multiple inserts. Witnessed it personally 3 days ago.
2. My Ghostbusters pro at NYNY is ghosted in multiple inserts.
3. My Ghostbusters LE at Fremont Arcade is ghosted in multiple inserts.
So to clarify, 100% of the Ghostbusters playfields, that I have personally seen, are defective.

My GBLE has zero issues and I don't route it. I'll take pictures so you can bring your % down to 75%

Did the look of the inserts cause people to spend less $$$ playing it?

Did Stern say they weren't going to replace those PF's? They have already lost your business correct?

How have the other Stern PF's you have held up by comparison?

#352 7 years ago
Quoted from ExtremePinball:

FIX WHAT CHANGED. Problem, solved.

No shit. I'm sure they are just sitting around with their thumb up their a**es.

Since i'm the 1/2 glass full guy, it just MIGHT be possible that they are attempting to remedy the issue as we speak and the next 30 years of making pinball machines will look like the last 30?

I don't know, we'll see won't we.

#353 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

My GBLE has zero issues and I don't route it. I'll take pictures so you can bring your % down to 75%
Did the look of the inserts cause people to spend less $$$ playing it?
Did Stern say they weren't going to replace those PF's? They have already lost your business correct?
How have the other Stern PF's you have held up by comparison?

No.
No. Yes, but for more QC and cost cutting reasons than just this playfield issue.
Perfectly.

I'll add KPG's playfield to bring the percentage back up to 80%.

#354 7 years ago

All three pros I have encountered have ghosting (2 location, 1 huo) , and at least one has very muted colors on the playfield. One of the two GOT pros on location has ghosting as well. Our premium GB on location, is doing well with light dimpling, strong colors and no ghosting.

#355 7 years ago
Quoted from ExtremePinball:

No.
No. Yes, but for more QC and cost cutting reasons than just this playfield issue.
Perfectly.
I'll add KPG's playfield to bring the percentage back up to 80%.

So with the "perfectly" comparison you would acknowledge that they could end up fixing the issue at some point and get it right again?

Those GB's are good earners aren't they? You've done great with Iron Man Ve and Tron (i think that was the other one)?

And i wouldn't route pinball machines either!

11
#356 7 years ago
Quoted from ExtremePinball:

FIX WHAT CHANGED. Problem, solved.

Obviously, not as easy as you might think.

Either It is being suggested they are knowingly shipping defective playfields or not.

One would need some support in volume that defects are seen at unboxing.

There isnt a conspiracy here. No evil business knowingly shipping defective playfields.

Why go that route?

Shit is happening, We dont know why, they arent fixing it fast enough to consumer demands,
and there are issues raised over communication.

People are free to buy or not buy, and I am grateful to be kept informed by fellow pinsiders about issues
and resolutions.

It just seems sometimes that things get blown out of proportion.

I simply stand in disagreement, In My Opinion, against the statement that says Stern is knowingly shipping defective
playfields from an inspection line.

Ill respect that you think otherwise, as anyone else, and believe they intentionally are doing so.

#357 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

So with the "perfectly" comparison you would acknowledge that they could end up fixing the issue at some point and get it right again?
Those GB's are good earners aren't they? You've done great with Iron Man Ve and Tron (i think that was the other one)?
And i wouldn't route pinball machines either!

Oh, they could, absolutely. That doesn't mean they'll be able, or even willing, to fix their other lack of quality control issues though.

Did you get your BM66 yet? As a collector, it probably doesn't matter that they didn't install a protective piece of plexi, or glass, over the LCD screen. Nope, in typical cost cutting fashion, the LCD is fully exposed to anybody that wants to stick their fingers, knives, etc., or maybe carve their initials right into the LCD screen. Then again, for a lousy $10,000, maybe my expectations are too high.

The Ghostbusters is an outstanding earner. So well, that I'll be taking my GBLE out of Fremont Arcade and placing it at NYNY to let it earn too.

Yes, IMVE & Avatar LE. I don't have a Tron. I've done great with almost every pin that I've placed at NYNY... except Mustang & WWE. But there aren't many locations that see 1.2 million visitors annually. So while pinballs do well there, they're still at the bottom of the revenue stream compared to my video arcade games.

Of course you wouldn't route your pinballs.... you're not an operator.

Remember, I was previously committed to buying a pro and an LE of almost every pin they put out. That ended with GB.

10
#358 7 years ago
Quoted from ExtremePinball:

FIX WHAT CHANGED. Problem, solved.

Nobody knows what changed.

-

Insert plastic formula changed? Not that anyone can measure.

Clear coat formula changed? Manufacturer claims nothing has changed.

Wood changed? Same Maple trees from the same syrup farms processed by the same plywood manufacturer.

Environmental change? Same factory with same humidity, same coating booths.

Ink changed? Manufacturer claims nothing has changed.

-

Even worse, only a percentage of playfields are affected; making it even more maddening

#359 7 years ago
Quoted from ExtremePinball:

Oh, they could, absolutely. That doesn't mean they'll be able, or even willing, to fix their other lack of quality control issues though.

As a collector, it probably doesn't matter that they didn't install a protective piece of plexi, or glass, over the LCD screen. Nope, in typical cost cutting fashion, the LCD is fully exposed to anybody that wants to stick their fingers, knives, etc., or maybe carve their initials right into the LCD screen.

Surely that has to be an oversight? Could it have been left out during assembly?

Can others confirm their games are like this too?

#360 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Nobody knows what changed.

Well something has changed. Now they have gone from ghosting to extreme dimpling on the latest playfields. No, not your average "they will all even out with time dimpling" but full surface of the moon dimpling.

#361 7 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Well something has changed. Now they have gone from ghosting to extreme dimpling on the latest playfields. No, not your average "they will all even out with time dimpling" but full surface of the moon dimpling.

Like all out, balls to the walls, mother humping, jizz squirting, WMS dimpling?

Theater of DimplesTheater of Dimples

#362 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Nobody knows what changed.
-
Insert plastic formula changed? Not that anyone can measure.
Clear coat formula changed? Manufacturer claims nothing has changed.
Wood changed? Same Maple trees from the same syrup farms processed by the same plywood manufacturer.
Environmental change? Same factory with same humidity, same coating booths.
Ink changed? Manufacturer claims nothing has changed.
-
Even worse, only a percentage of playfields are affected; making it even more maddening

That is some crazy shit

#363 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Like all out, balls to the walls, mother humping, jizz squirting, WMS dimpling?

How's that happen behind the flippers and outlanes where u rarely get any airballs?

#364 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Like all out, balls to the walls, mother humping, jizz squirting, WMS dimpling?

Mine's not as bad as some I've seen on here, but way more noticable than the METLE playfield I had which was supposed to be from the lessor batch you had mentioned before.

#365 7 years ago

Is WWE still at Nyny?

Gonna be there in a couple of weeks.

Haven't played that one yet

#366 7 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Well something has changed. Now they have gone from ghosting to extreme dimpling on the latest playfields. No, not your average "they will all even out with time dimpling" but full surface of the moon dimpling.

The games have changed. The latest games seem faster and have significantly more airball than any other games I've played. That might explain the dimpling, but not sure about the ghosting -- airballs certainly could be contributing to it.

#367 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Is WWE still at Nyny?
Gonna be there in a couple of weeks.
Haven't played that one yet

No, I moved it over to the Fun Dungeon at Excalibur next door. I have a TF pro there too.

#368 7 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Surely that has to be an oversight? Could it have been left out during assembly?
Can others confirm their games are like this too?

Ok, maybe. I can only comment on the one at PHoF that Tim bought.

#369 7 years ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

How's that happen behind the flippers and outlanes where u rarely get any airballs?

This game has been continuously on rout for the last 20 years.

Because rarely does an airball hop over into the outlane, every airball leaves a quite noticeable dent in the virgin maple.

Once the game is on route for another 50 years, there will be so many dents that the whole outlane will appear flat. Every bit of soft wood fiber will be crushed into an even surface.

#370 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Once the game is on route for another 50 years, there will be so many dents that the whole outlane will appear flat. Every bit of soft wood fiber will be crushed into an even surface.

I'll take vid's word as the voice of reason and accept dimpling over ghosting although I never saw it like this on any other new or low play game I've owned.

Maybe in 50 years it will be smooth as all my 90s Williams playfields.

#371 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Every bit of soft wood fiber will be crushed into an even surface.

Why do you think some pins dimple faster more than others? In the long run, if you play your pins a ton they will all look the same, no?

Btw, thanks Art for putting out the nice diplomatic level headed response that i agree with, versus my pain in the ass style!

#372 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Why do you think some pins dimple faster more than others? In the long run, if you play your pins a ton they will all look the same, no?

If you don't play them a lot, you will see tons of dimples.

If you keep the playfield polished to a high sheen, you will see tons of dimples.

dimples from Mars (resized).jpgdimples from Mars (resized).jpg

-
-

And yes, after 200,000 plays, all the dimples level themselves out and the playfield looks very flat.

Think of a new car. Every little hairline scratch stands out and draws your eye.

10 years latter, you have acquired 10,000 hairline scratches from the car wash. A new hairline is not even a blip on your radar.

#373 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If you keep the playfield polished to a high sheen, you will see tons of dimples.

Nothing shinier than that brand new Batman playfield!

Except maybe my Skateball NOS cleared by HSA. I guess maybe someday it might give in, but no dimpling at all so far.

#374 7 years ago

You always say this vid, but I have to disagree. There is some amount of variability in pf hardness. I think it just comes down to the relative softness of the top layer of the pf.

For older classics the vast majority are harder and nicer. I have some routed sterns that are hard and nice, but other that are SUPER soft. Definately a spectrum.

#375 7 years ago
Quoted from ExtremePinball:

Ok, maybe. I can only comment on the one at PHoF that Tim bought.

I don't see how they can get away with having no protective layer over the LCD. As you hint at, operators will be lining up with burning torches if they've left that out.

Even if there's no malicious or accidental drunken damage, a cleaner is probably going to spray it with the wrong stuff and damage it.

#376 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

For older classics the vast majority are harder and nicer. I have some routed sterns that are hard and nice, but other that are SUPER soft. Definately a spectrum.

"hard" maple can have a 7% variation in hardness, so of course some slices of wood are harder than others.

Also, remember that an ancient 40 year old Bally playfield will have harder wood as the moisture content has lessened over the years. Just like old maple guitar necks are harder than new ones, even though they were both crafted from the same species grown on the same plantation.

And those 40 year old Bally's do not have anywhere near the coil power, ramp drops or 6 ball multiball, lol....

00dfc1a31ea67d8489a7da7653d03e2de1cc9c23 (resized).jpg00dfc1a31ea67d8489a7da7653d03e2de1cc9c23 (resized).jpg

12
#377 7 years ago

horseschak (resized).jpghorseschak (resized).jpg

#378 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Also, remember that an ancient 40 year old Bally playfield will have harder wood

This 40 year old Bally has been giving us harder wood indeed.

DSCN5234 (resized).JPGDSCN5234 (resized).JPG

#379 7 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

This 40 year old Bally has been giving us harder wood indeed.

I'd frost that entire game.

#380 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I'd frost that entire game.

Next time you are in So Cal, you can have your chance.

I just put a game on Batman and it's smooth as silk despite a little dimpling. I love old man West croaking out "extra ball".

10
#381 7 years ago

I still marvel at how hard Stern seems to go out of their way to piss off it's customers.

You have customers where people adore your designers (asking for autographs), pay to come to your Epic parties, and aggressively buy your LE and SLEs priced at $8-12K+! People who are fanatic about guessing your next release - akin to Apple fanatics guessing, waiting, spying to find the new features of an iPhone 8 and get in line for one.

Instead of taking a direct marketing communication and messaging approach, you ignore until a change.org petition comes out. It's ok to say we need more time as we source new play fields to remedy the situation. We're committed to making this right for those customers impacted. Please continue to be patient. That promotes brand loyalty and lets you truly leverage social media rather than silly dancing monkey contests. Social media = direct unfiltered communication with your customers. Try it.

Yup, some will still bitch. But most will value the change because in the end - we want you to succeed because we love pinball. Create a marketing advisory board please, I'll volunteer to help. It really could make your life easier.

#382 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Nobody knows what changed.
-
Insert plastic formula changed? Not that anyone can measure.
Clear coat formula changed? Manufacturer claims nothing has changed.
Wood changed? Same Maple trees from the same syrup farms processed by the same plywood manufacturer.
Environmental change? Same factory with same humidity, same coating booths.
Ink changed? Manufacturer claims nothing has changed.
-
Even worse, only a percentage of playfields are affected; making it even more maddening

Here's a new theory... playfield flex. It's normally the inserts near the center of the PF ghosting right? What if it's playfield movement and slight flexing... that could put a strain on the adhesion between the inserts, their seating, and the clear.

#383 7 years ago

With all of the technology available today, it's surprising manufacturers aren't using non destructive testing equipment to spot check machines. I deal in NDT equipment, and have instruments that can give you a breakdown of elemental makeup, clear thickness, hardness, alloy chemistry, etc. it is expensive stuff, but renting is cheap, and you can get a baseline reading of what the good play fields are like. It's amazing but just goofing off inspecting my machines in the past, you can tell the suppliers are occasionally not providing the correct materials, as there is variances from machine to machine of the supposed same part. QC is a tough thing, especially when there is an issue. For example, an aviation manufacturer had batches of bolts that were 96% of the time correct, and they couldn't figure out what was causing the variance in temper of aluminum. Come to find out it was one employee taking a 15 smoke break while transferring the bolts to the ovens, and would let them sit outside with him in freezing temps. It took a while, but they finally tracked it down, but it couldn't of happened without using the proper instruments to check.

#384 7 years ago

Please see my post regarding my open letter to Gary Stern of Stern Pinball Inc., re: Defective Playfields here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/open-letter-to-gary-stern-re-defective-playfields#post-3547511

#386 7 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Instead of taking a direct marketing communication and messaging approach, you ignore until a change.org petition comes out. It's ok to say we need more time as we source new play fields to remedy the situation. We're committed to making this right for those customers impacted. Please continue to be patient. That promotes brand loyalty and lets you truly leverage social media rather than silly dancing monkey contests. Social media = direct unfiltered communication with your customers. Try it.
Yup, some will still bitch. But most will value the change because in the end - we want you to succeed because we love pinball. Create a marketing advisory board please, I'll volunteer to help. It really could make your life easier.

Amen to that. A consumer advisory board of level headed people is much needed. Just communicate.

I guarantee you its the lawyers that tell them to keep their mouths shut re potential issues.

#387 7 years ago

I build custom cabinetry for a living, and deal with different plywoods every day. Why every pf isn't made from 1/2" Baltic birch plwd is beyond me. Approx 3 times the layers of alternating grain makes for a MUCH more stable product. Mirco uses it, and it shows.

#388 7 years ago

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/changeorg-petition-gary-stern-replace-defective-playfields/page/8#post-3547468

flynnibus, I'd disagree with your theory based on my small sample of two machines and the locations of the issues (all over the play field - center, top, bottom and edges).

SMVE has lower 1/3 of the field center inserts, left and right ramp entry inserts (top 1/3 of field) and left and right orbit inserts ghosting. One right orbit insert has cracked through to the clear coat to the top surface of the play field. All non-round inserts show ghosting, all over the play field.

SMVE has clear coat lifting under the apron at the ball trough return.

MET has clear coat lifting under the apron in the exact same spot under the apron at the ball trough return.
MET has left and right ramp entry inserts ghosting - less prominent than SMVE.

Both machines manufactured in 2016 (SMVE first half of the year, MET second half).

#389 7 years ago
Quoted from ExtremePinball:

As a collector, it probably doesn't matter that they didn't install a protective piece of plexi, or glass, over the LCD screen. Nope, in typical cost cutting fashion, the LCD is fully exposed to anybody that wants to stick their fingers, knives, etc., or maybe carve their initials right into the LCD screen.

My LE has a plastic window in front of the LCD. If yours missing? See item #11 below.

rps20170116_231823 (resized).jpgrps20170116_231823 (resized).jpg

#390 7 years ago

Both of my new Sterns have major dimpling. It doesnt bother me much because it went from looking terrible at first to now kinda like an orange peel after 600-800 plays and you cant see it unless you are in perfect lighting. Some on here say all playfields dimple and some say its due to ball speed and air balls etc, but none of my older machines are dimpling that I can see. Most of my old machines are slow playing, but I'll say this, my Jack Bot plays super fast and has some crazy air balls at times. I can not see one dimple on that playfield, it looks like a sheet of glass. Im not trying to discredit anyones knowledge at all either by the way, Iim just telling you what I see on my machines. Im definitely no expert on playfields and don't claim to be.

#391 7 years ago
Quoted from Jjsmooth:

Why every pf isn't made from 1/2" Baltic birch plwd is beyond me. Approx 3 times the layers of alternating grain makes for a MUCH more stable product. Mirco uses it, and it shows.

By comparison, what does Stern use? Is it cheaper?

Isn't Stern using the same wood for their PF's now as in the past?

#392 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

By comparison, what does Stern use? Is it cheaper?
Isn't Stern using the same wood for their PF's now as in the past?

I believe both. Here's a good explanation of maple vs baltic birch playfields according to Vid. Now he won't have to spend the time typing all this out again, lol. I saved it for future reference.

pinball playfield wood (resized).JPGpinball playfield wood (resized).JPG

#393 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Nobody knows what changed.
-
Insert plastic formula changed? Not that anyone can measure.
Clear coat formula changed? Manufacturer claims nothing has changed.
Wood changed? Same Maple trees from the same syrup farms processed by the same plywood manufacturer.
Environmental change? Same factory with same humidity, same coating booths.
Ink changed? Manufacturer claims nothing has changed.
-
Even worse, only a percentage of playfields are affected; making it even more maddening

I assume this post is just conjecture guessing WHAT Stern might encounter when trying to track down the cause of the higher than normal percentage of PF "failures"... right?

No one has even conclusively stated WHO the manufacturer IS with these PF's as they don't sign their name to them. All my Churchill PF's have their name stamped on the sides. These don't.

I've seen a lot of guessing but no facts at all.

BUT... every detail you mention may have indeed changed. CC brand and composition, ink and insert composition but we don't know.

Stern themselves may have only a few options on who can make their PF's and may have to live with what they can get and what they are told about the materials and composition.

If it's not some change that they themselves ordered over the last couple years then I feel for them.

Won't be an easy thing to track down and the forums are a big echo chamber... may be one egregious case out of 30 "decent" ones...

again nobody really knows.

#394 7 years ago
Quoted from Jjsmooth:

I build custom cabinetry for a living, and deal with different plywoods every day. Why every pf isn't made from 1/2" Baltic birch plwd is beyond me. Approx 3 times the layers of alternating grain makes for a MUCH more stable product. Mirco uses it, and it shows.

They have tried in the past (as did CPR).

Unfortunately, the face ply of BB is too thin, so trying to run the board through the sander to get all the inserts flush becomes a nightmare.

In addition, the Maple of a normal playfield is harder than Birch.

-

There were a few Stern playfields floating around a few years ago that were cut from BB - you can tell by the funky shooterlane that everyone hated.

Baltic Playfield (resized).jpgBaltic Playfield (resized).jpg

#395 7 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Both of my new Sterns have major dimpling. It doesnt bother me much because it went from looking terrible at first to now kinda like an orange peel after 600-800 plays and you cant see it unless you are in perfect lighting. Some on here say all playfields dimple and some say its due to ball speed and air balls etc, but none of my older machines are dimpling that I can see. Most of my old machines are slow playing, but I'll say this, my Jack Bot plays super fast and has some crazy air balls at times. I can not see one dimple on that playfield, it looks like a sheet of glass. Im not trying to discredit anyones knowledge at all either by the way, Iim just telling you what I see on my machines. Im definitely no expert on playfields and don't claim to be.

Your 25 year old Jackbot has had millions of balls travel over it, pounding the soft wood fibers into a **level** playfield.

When it was one week old, and only had 800 plays, it also had "major dimpling" on it.

Any time you want to see how many dimples your ancient playfield actually has, polish the playfield and then remove a ramp to expose the virgin maple surface where no ball ever touched:

f99de13b59616ebb5707d9ddff5547680108318a (resized).jpgf99de13b59616ebb5707d9ddff5547680108318a (resized).jpg

3893d191c8e89b1af3de9dde478e375247c4b000 (resized).jpg3893d191c8e89b1af3de9dde478e375247c4b000 (resized).jpg

#396 7 years ago
Quoted from Manic:

I assume this post is just conjecture guessing WHAT Stern might encounter when trying to track down the cause of the higher than normal percentage of PF "failures"... right?

No, it's a paraphrase from Gary himself.

Quoted from Manic:

No one has even conclusively stated WHO the manufacturer IS with these PF's as they don't sign their name to them. All my Churchill PF's have their name stamped on the sides. These don't.

It looks to be 2 different manufacturers for sure, but there could be a 3rd .

#397 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

By comparison, what does Stern use? Is it cheaper?
Isn't Stern using the same wood for their PF's now as in the past?

Baltic Birch is MUCH cheaper than the Maple Lumber Core that Stern uses.

The Maple Lumber Core is ONLY made for the pinball industry.

That's why you can call any plywood wholesaler on earth and no one stocks a single sheet of the stuff.

#398 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

No, it's a paraphrase from Gary himself.

It looks to be 2 different manufacturers for sure, but there could be a 3rd .

I don't remember him ever being so specific but maybe I missed it and you could point me to the quote?

I DO remember the "we make 'em the same way we always have statement" which was oddly timed as at that point the Churchill stamp disappeared from the edge of the PF's and the rumor was they had started sourcing them from somewhere else.

Strange statement as Stern doesn't make the PF's in any case. Of course the "in house" thing was another rumor

#399 7 years ago

Ha anyone tried to call the Churchill Cabinet Co. and ask them. Could be an easy solution

#400 7 years ago
Quoted from Manic:

I don't remember him ever being so specific but maybe I missed it and you could point me to the quote?

I did not record the conversation.

Just call him, he is very forthcoming.

-

I asked if it was true that Stern was going to start making playfields inhouse and then he was a little evasive, lol

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