Gainesville, FL
Quoted from jellikit:[quoted image]
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tumblr_mb30k0VvF31qg385jo1_400.gif(Topic ID: 312454)
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Stern Electronics, 1980
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1ee4dbdec3547f0c7854b0f25ca9bf5aec8b95e1.giftumblr_mb30k0VvF31qg385jo1_400.gifQuoted from MtnFrost:I would have used African shields to marry the foliage theme,
Point 1 - Tigers, the largest of the big cats, do not live in Africa. Though there are a number of large cats and predators to be found throughout the continent, tigers are not one of them.
Point 2 - Attacking others that are negative about your thread with more negativity does not lead to positivity.
Point 3 -Its only pinball...
Quoted from EJS:Almost forgot about this! I actually never noticed until someone pointed it out after I sold mine.
[quoted image]
W T F !?! I am on my 3rd WPT and never noticed this. I just ran downstairs to confirm and there it is! As an avid poker player and follower of the World Poker Tour circuit, I never had any issue with the artwork. I always felt it represented Texas Hold'em and the televised show just fine. But now.....ugh!
Quoted from KJS:Artists of all ilks are temperamental.
Yeah, well I think a lot of your stuff sucks! What kind of amateur hacks do you have on your graphic arts team? 
(before all the downvotes come, this is self-deprecation.)
Quoted from MtnFrost:As for the lens, if we followed that argument, nobody should look at the Mona Lisa, Rockwell, or Rembrandt or have any discussion ever about any art or illustration that wasn't created yesterday - because we are clearly going to be judging through the lens of today.
Art historians do not look at the past for how they would make art different, or in your word "better", they look at art from the past through the lens of that time period to better understand why the art was created the way it was and how it influenced the surroundings or life in general.
For instance, to better understand color field paintings of the 1940's through 1950's one would need to look at acedamia and philosophers of the time. Art theory in and of itself, writers like Clement Greenberg. Without looking through this historical lens, most people just say things like, "that's crap, I could do that". And they miss the whole point.
This is just an example, but you can apply it to any artistic movement ever.
Quoted from MtnFrost:I'm an artist - and artwork is a big factor in what pinball machines I like. However, as you all know, the quality of the artwork on pinball machines has varied wildly from gorgeous to butt ugly (looking at you, Flash and Genesis). Artists don't get paid enough or get valued enough. I thought it'd be fun to hear about artwork you think could have been better, and what you would have done. I'll start with Stern Big Game. These "cards" on the playfield are horrible. I would have used African shields to marry the foliage theme, and possibly sneak in stereotypical big game hunter somewhere in the jungle mix.
Remember, you have to suggest what you think would have been a better solution, so this isn't just another rant thread. Are you game? (get it?)
[quoted image]
If you don't like the cards, you probably haven't played the game or don't understand it.
And as others have said here, the card designs are kind of a throw back to pins from the late 40's to the early sixties.
"... Remember, you have to suggest what you think would have been a better solution, so this isn't just another rant thread."
So in other words, suggesting not changing anything is out? Yeah, this thread started out as a rant.
Quoted from jellikit:[quoted image]
Is it wrong to refer to her as Knuckled Wristed Lady" in the "edited" version?
... how about "Shoulder Mole Lady"? 
Quoted from swampfire:This wins the internet for today.
... Day's still early ... 
Quoted from MtnFrost:I always thought so many EMs should have carried their backglass artwork onto the PF, instead of cheaping out with simple geometric designs. I wonder if there was a reason, beyond cost?
Easy answer: Back then EM's where pushed out as fast as possible so the operator could make money in the arcades, bars, bowling alleys ect. There was not as many home owned EM pins back then. Operator's got them to earn and then kept rotating with new pins to keep the customers happy to play some new pins.
No one back then said " geez, I'm not playing this new pin because the playfield didn't carry the art work from the backglass". EM's were made for the short term and to be rotated in and out to keep a steady flow of new pins to play.
Quoted from jellikit:[quoted image]
Thanks Jellikit. Her arm isn't messed up, just smaller, from a man's arm to a woman's. I didn't bother to do more than a rough comp, to give the suggestion of what could be done. Obviously we'd redraw the hand and wrist, but the idea is there.
You see, Swampfire, they are very different, not the same at all. I guess you didn't see it because you're not trained as an artist? Which is not a negative, anymore than I'm lost looking at anything but the basics of schematics, since I'm not trained as an electrician.
Medicynal - "To suggest art depicting humans must strictly follow the guidelines of anatomy is an incredibly close-minded take." Agreed. And I have never suggested that. I've already mentioned drawing in style, which can go a lot of ways not tied to traditional representations. I only said that WHEN an artist is attempting to draw a human and they are NOT trying to do a style, my opinion is it should be drawn accurately. Again, just my opinion. Yes, there are many ways to be an artist. But we are only talking about an illustrative artists and illustrations in this thread. I'm interested to here from other artists (from any walks of life) who have felt a certain artwork could be better. Think of it as constructive, or just what they would have done differently.
Jesterfunhouse - 1) Countdown has a woman without a suit outside the capsule in space. That's artistic license. Combining themes and disparate elements is done all the time. This is about art design, or at least I'd like it to be. 2) I admit it's frustrating that so many don't want to contribute as a positive. It's very challenging to try to steer the conversation back on track. 3) amen
Drypaint - this was sort of off track, since the whole thread is asking artists what they feel they would have changed. There are some things, however, that are not subjective to era. Any attempt to render a human in a realistic form should be easy to discuss, because the anatomy hasn't changed. But this is outside of intended style, which is era specific. But besides that, I just wanted to hear what other artists would like to do, have done, or feel could have been done.
girloveswaffles - you can say you would have done something different if what was done is not to your aesthetics. You don't need to know more than what feels right to you. Again, these are all creative opinions meant to be shared. Not gospel. Just a discussion of artistic ideas. Or I had hoped it would be.
"So in other words, suggesting not changing anything is out? Yeah, this thread started out as a rant." Nobody ever said that. Suggesting IS changing. This threat never started out as a rant, I should know, since it's my thread - a rant would be complaining about something and offering no suggestions to address what you are complaining about. I just want to hear from other artists on things they might have done differently, or have thought about doing. How is that a rant? I tried to lead with an example.
gjm - exactly why there are opportunities to dress up the pins with more art, because they were never meant to be taken as art objects, right? It would be interesting to talk about creative choices we would have made had any of us been the artist.
I'll keep posting things I would have done. I don't mind if you disagree, because I'm just voicing my own opinions and thoughts. I do hope that other artists eventually chime in with their own creative ideas.
I always thought it's a shame there isn't artwork on the playfield upper arches for a lot of EMs. Later of course everyone did do plastics there, so I'm glad that change happened. But for these blank white areas, there's opportunity. To suggest something, the art would have to be done in the same style as the pin, maybe carrying some of the backglass art onto the table. I did start working on some art for one of the titles, but life got in the way of finishing. What do you think? Any favorite machine from that era you'd like to see additional art on it's upper arches?
Kitchener, ON
I always liked the stickers that someone made to cover the diverter on F14 Tomcat. I had put them on my old game years ago. These pics I just pulled from the net. 58A17ECA-3501-4A21-A40A-3A1ACF9CC4A0 (resized).jpeg677B593C-12F8-4738-8B77-6F50D18E15B3 (resized).jpeg
FECBDCE1-9E7F-4D57-A90D-9ACF540F1B7C (resized).jpeg02914A9D-6479-46E7-8862-19743C931B4B (resized).jpeg
Woolgoolga
Quoted from MtnFrost:I guess you didn't see it because you're not trained as an artist?
Quoted from MtnFrost:I'm an artist
Quoted from MtnFrost:you clearly aren't an artist
Quoted from MtnFrost:I do hope that other artists eventually chime in with their own creative ideas.
You keep mentioning that you’re an artist. I would sincerely appreciate if you posted some of your art. Let us know how it’s done!
Quoted from MtnFrost:Thanks Jellikit. Her arm isn't messed up, just smaller, from a man's arm to a woman's. I didn't bother to do more than a rough comp, to give the suggestion of what could be done. Obviously we'd redraw the hand and wrist, but the idea is there.
You see, Swampfire, they are very different, not the same at all. I guess you didn't see it because you're not trained as an artist? Which is not a negative, anymore than I'm lost looking at anything but the basics of schematics, since I'm not trained as an electrician.
Medicynal - "To suggest art depicting humans must strictly follow the guidelines of anatomy is an incredibly close-minded take." Agreed. And I have never suggested that. I've already mentioned drawing in style, which can go a lot of ways not tied to traditional representations. I only said that WHEN an artist is attempting to draw a human and they are NOT trying to do a style, my opinion is it should be drawn accurately. Again, just my opinion. Yes, there are many ways to be an artist. But we are only talking about an illustrative artists and illustrations in this thread. I'm interested to here from other artists (from any walks of life) who have felt a certain artwork could be better. Think of it as constructive, or just what they would have done differently.
Jesterfunhouse - 1) Countdown has a woman without a suit outside the capsule in space. That's artistic license. Combining themes and disparate elements is done all the time. This is about art design, or at least I'd like it to be. 2) I admit it's frustrating that so many don't want to contribute as a positive. It's very challenging to try to steer the conversation back on track. 3) amen
Drypaint - this was sort of off track, since the whole thread is asking artists what they feel they would have changed. There are some things, however, that are not subjective to era. Any attempt to render a human in a realistic form should be easy to discuss, because the anatomy hasn't changed. But this is outside of intended style, which is era specific. But besides that, I just wanted to hear what other artists would like to do, have done, or feel could have been done.
girloveswaffles - you can say you would have done something different if what was done is not to your aesthetics. You don't need to know more than what feels right to you. Again, these are all creative opinions meant to be shared. Not gospel. Just a discussion of artistic ideas. Or I had hoped it would be.
"So in other words, suggesting not changing anything is out? Yeah, this thread started out as a rant." Nobody ever said that. Suggesting IS changing. This threat never started out as a rant, I should know, since it's my thread - a rant would be complaining about something and offering no suggestions to address what you are complaining about. I just want to hear from other artists on things they might have done differently, or have thought about doing. How is that a rant? I tried to lead with an example.
gjm - exactly why there are opportunities to dress up the pins with more art, because they were never meant to be taken as art objects, right? It would be interesting to talk about creative choices we would have made had any of us been the artist.
I'll keep posting things I would have done. I don't mind if you disagree, because I'm just voicing my own opinions and thoughts. I do hope that other artists eventually chime in with their own creative ideas.
I was at a circus two months ago. The woman that did the aerial silk act looked just like the original Cheetah artwork 
More of a confident bad-ass with her strong arms and upright posture, befitting of a crazy-cat-lady huntress that was told the kittens were merely Bengal cats, yet learned to wrastle them 
.
It's possible your posts are coming off as more condescending than you intend, but using the artist tag to invalidate the views of others doesn't help.
Untitlednedry (resized).jpg
Quoted from MtnFrost:I always thought it's a shame there isn't artwork on the playfield upper arches for a lot of EMs. Later of course everyone did do plastics there, so I'm glad that change happened. But for these blank white areas, there's opportunity. To suggest something, the art would have to be done in the same style as the pin, maybe carrying some of the backglass art onto the table. I did start working on some art for one of the titles, but life got in the way of finishing. What do you think? Any favorite machine from that era you'd like to see additional art on it's upper arches?
[quoted image]
How about NONE!
Quoted from Medisinyl:I was at a circus two months ago. The woman that did the aerial silk act looked just like the original Cheetah artwork More of a confident bad-ass with her strong arms and upright posture, befitting of a crazy cat lady huntress that was told the kittens were merely Bengal cats, yet learned to wrastle them .
You ask for artistic opinions, yet keep suggesting your superior artistic knowledge proves those opinions to be lesser, which is off-putting. [quoted image]
Careful, keep making references like that and he'll search out other back glasses to berate:
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pasted_image (resized).png
(...and, yeah, Gottlieb's Circus is one of those games that the back glass art doesn't match the playfield art, but I wouldn't change them. They both look fine.)
Quoted from MtnFrost:You see, Swampfire, they are very different, not the same at all. I guess you didn't see it because you're not trained as an artist? Which is not a negative, anymore than I'm lost looking at anything but the basics of schematics, since I'm not trained as an electrician.
I can tell you’re not a bad person at all, just opinionated. Nothing wrong with that, and it’s not a bad topic. I just would have picked different examples.
Quoted from MtnFrost:I'll keep posting things I would have done. I don't mind if you disagree
What I would like to see is what you WOULD do, given a particular license. For all I know, you’re the next Zombie Yeti or Dirty Donnie and you want to make a splash. So, impress us. Let’s say your next license is “The Who” or “Jimi Hendrix” (dream themes). What you do?
Honestly the topic is valid, but you should be picking apart the ridiculous alternate translites that some people are cranking out (pics only edited to avoid deletion of this post):
213215D7-0413-4B53-AF01-F4062A0FEDF5 (resized).jpeg08BEF1CD-D2DA-47AB-8409-730C4799D4AD (resized).jpegBBAD10EF-9B12-4B43-855D-7488120B9D06 (resized).jpegDF6B0C88-6CCE-42DF-B258-C40534BD105B (resized).jpeg
Quoted from MtnFrost:Drypaint - this was sort of off track, since the whole thread is asking artists what they feel they would have changed
You realize the quote button is to quote the person you are responding to? I was responding to a comment you made on this thread. It was a direct response to your comment in blue.
I believe I understand the topic of your thread. I find it somewhat interesting being that I have spent most my life in the field of art... And still do. That said it's such an odd approach to evaluating other people's artistic abilities, or as I think you are saying by your last response to me... their ability to draft anatomically correct illustrations?
Pinball is not supposed to be all that serious. I don't think the art should be all that serious. The art should be "good", but not necessarily serious. I think the art should capture the essence of the theme and draw the clients in to play them, that makes "good" art in this instance. Are some artists better than others, yes. Was the budget for artists the same on every pinball machine, no. Therein may lie the rub.
I also don't think you have to be an artist to see or understand what you are talking about. Although I am an artist and work with them every day. I also work with people in the art industry that are not artists and can critique and speak about art in a very thoughtful, elegant, appropriate, and educated way.
It's not hard to tear apart a piece of art from the standpoint of weather or not it is factually correct in it's proportions, perspective, or realism. But the question for me becomes why? Is it because you can and want to prove it? Is it to make something better? I am genuinely curious. I tend to follow threads for vastly different reasons. This one has me puzzled enough to keep checking in.
The gap looks right anyway, that's all i seem to look at.
There has been some conjecture from some questionable blokes that she could be male, but when pointed out that they were confusing her hair blowing in the wind for a beard, and that you can see where the bikini strap cuts in they have tapped out.
Haven'tOnlyGotATronPunkin
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:Yeah, well I think a lot of your stuff sucks! What kind of amateur hacks do you have on your graphic arts team?
(before all the downvotes come, this is self-deprecation.)
They are ok on the printing.....well quality not accuracy....but yeah..the keyboard not so much...a little bit senile maybe
Quoted from swampfire:Honestly the topic is valid, but you should be picking apart the ridiculous alternate translites that some people are cranking out (pics only edited to avoid deletion of this post):
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
Is this the new CPR updated Web page?
I went to school with a couple people who became artists. One of them is an engineering draftswoman, but she does incredible art pieces in her free time. I approached her a few months ago about possibly doing a pinball related commission piece (which was to do a redrawing of BSD's backglass in a similar style that Aurich did with Shadow).
She was really enthusiastic about it, until I told her the dimensions of a backglass. She reeled at how large it was, and how much time it would take, and that she never even attempted to draw anything that large with that much detail. I never really thought about how detailed these things need to be both up close and from far away, but after she explained to me how much work it would take her, she politely declined.
Anyway, moral is, after our conversation I have a ton of respect for the art pieces on these games and the crazy amount of work that has to go into them. Art appreciation is completely subjective anyway, and while I may not personally like it all, I can still appreciate it all. They're all products of their times.
Quoted from Quicksilver1:Cost as well as deadlines usually played a big factor in playfield/backglass art cohesion fails. A perfect example is Paul Faris' Future Spa backglass art vs. Dave Christensen's Future Spa playfield art.
[quoted image]
Also 1980 Skateball- The backglass art was done in the 70's on a failed title (it CAUGHT FIRE and was cancelled plus other reasons) and then Bally recycled the backglass and name.
The 1980 playfield has awesome art, backglass not so much.
Future Spa backglass is cringe inducing to me for some reason which is a shame as it has one of the coolest backglass lamp effects.
Grandpa with a 6-pack is bizarre.
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Quoted from KJS:They are ok on the printing.....well quality not accuracy....
Okay, that was funny! 
Quoted from Tranquilize:I love quirky pinball art, especially when it isn't anatomically correct.
The art on my Gladiators is so fun!
[quoted image]
Diaper bum and uni-Jordi made the keychain run!
[quoted image]
Agreed! I love the art on this one too. I can't wait to get my color DMD for it.
Quoted from mbaumle:I went to school with a couple people who became artists. One of them is an engineering draftswoman, but she does incredible art pieces in her free time. I approached her a few months ago about possibly doing a pinball related commission piece (which was to do a redrawing of BSD's backglass in a similar style that Aurich did with Shadow).
She was really enthusiastic about it, until I told her the dimensions of a backglass. She reeled at how large it was, and how much time it would take, and that she never even attempted to draw anything that large with that much detail. I never really thought about how detailed these things need to be both up close and from far away, but after she explained to me how much work it would take her, she politely declined.
Anyway, moral is, after our conversation I have a ton of respect for the art pieces on these games and the crazy amount of work that has to go into them. Art appreciation is completely subjective anyway, and while I may not personally like it all, I can still appreciate it all. They're all products of their times.
Quoted from Mudflaps:You keep mentioning that you’re an artist. I would sincerely appreciate if you posted some of your art. Let us know how it’s done!
If I did that, then all it is, is an opportunity to attack me personally, given what I've already seen here and elsewhere in the site. Besides, it's not about me, it's an interesting question to those who do like to talk about pinball art.
Quoted from drypaint:I also work with people in the art industry that are not artists and can critique and speak about art in a very thoughtful, elegant, appropriate, and educated way.
It's not hard to tear apart a piece of art from the standpoint of weather or not it is factually correct in it's proportions, perspective, or realism. But the question for me becomes why? Is it because you can and want to prove it? Is it to make something better? I am genuinely curious. I tend to follow threads for vastly different reasons. This one has me puzzled enough to keep checking in.
I hope to see some of them here. Why? Because I know there are people out there who have thought about this, and would have some interesting ideas I'd love to hear.
Quoted from GSones:Mata Hari. Love the gameplay and most of the art but I would have removed a few of the rolls on her stomach and gone with a more "toned" look.
[quoted image]
Remember that this was 1979, before we turned into a nation of fitness freaks. I think the rolls are accurate, given her pose. My only problem is with the choice of model, who looks nothing like the real Mata Hari. But the backglass art is so damned good, it’s hard to get too upset about it.
B065B95D-F86A-417C-BBFD-AFE21C694B9C (resized).jpegQuoted from gdonovan:Also 1980 Skateball- The backglass art was done in the 70's on a failed title (it CAUGHT FIRE and was cancelled plus other reasons) and then Bally recycled the backglass and name.
The 1980 playfield has awesome art, backglass not so much.
Future Spa backglass is cringe inducing to me for some reason which is a shame as it has one of the coolest backglass lamp effects.
Grandpa with a 6-pack is bizarre.
[quoted image][quoted image]
I always thought that too. Love the Skateball playfield. Thank you for sharing!
Quoted from GSones:Mata Hari. Love the gameplay and most of the art but I would have removed a few of the rolls on her stomach and gone with a more "toned" look.
[quoted image]
Interesting idea. Mata Hari was always one I felt had that beautiful artwork, but the gameplay never lived up to it.
Quoted from MtnFrost:Mata Hari was always one I liked the art, but the gameplay never lived up to it.
If you were a trained pinball player, you’d have a better appreciation for the gameplay.
Quoted from swampfire:If you were a trained pinball player, you’d have a better appreciation for the gameplay.
Probably true! I only play casually, and less than I'd like.
Quoted from Chuck_Sherman:If art sells the game, how the hell did Williams sell 19505 Flash ?
I don't think anyone here has said that art sells the game, although it certainly helps. I was just looking at the Flash art, since I think it's horrible. But the game itself is a great player. That comes first above all, right?
Quoted from MtnFrost:What did everyone think about these prototype slingshot plastics for BSM? Like em? Hate em? It's another area that sometimes gets overlooked. I thought it was interesting they were created but not used.
[quoted image]
The like the art, and the gothic-esque style, but I chose to not put them on my game as blocking the ball path there would bother me.
Were these mainly cut due to not getting rights to Ryder's appearance?
Quoted from Chuck_Sherman:If art sells the game, how the hell did Williams sell 19505 Flash ?
The increasing tempo for the background sounds and great gameplay sold this game. I remember it well when it came out and this became the only pin we played. Didn't notice the artwork at the time but looking back, it's pretty bad.
Quoted from MtnFrost:If I did that, then all it is, is an opportunity to attack me personally, given what I've already seen here and elsewhere in the site. Besides, it's not about me, it's an interesting question to those who do like to talk about pinball art.
Your choice. But I’ll offer that’s what artists do. They toil and sweat and sometimes work for nothing to put their work out for the world to embrace or attack.
Constantino Mitchell probably worked long hours under rigid deadlines to do the art for Flash, the game you called ‘butt ugly.’ But again, that’s what artists do. Despite the criticism and name calling, they create something for people to accept or deny, but the point is they keep trying to make the world a more beautiful place.
You don’t have to be an artist to understand that.
Quoted from Medisinyl:The like the art, and the gothic-esque style, but I chose to not put them on my game as blocking the ball path there would bother me.
Were these mainly cut due to not getting rights to Ryder's appearance?
I think I remember reading that was the case. It's probably the largest difference you could make between plain slingshot plastics and "massively arted" ones, if you could call it that. I wondered about the blocking - form following function, and all that.
Quoted from swampfire:Remember that this was 1979, before we turned into a nation of fitness freaks. I think the rolls are accurate, given her pose. My only problem is with the choice of model, who looks nothing like the real Mata Hari. But the backglass art is so damned good, it’s hard to get too upset about it.
Interesting enough - that photo has been modified by colorization - the original was in black and white. This is also controversial in some quarters. I had seen the original but not the colorized version - I like it. Found another one
Quoted from MtnFrost:Interesting idea. Mata Hari was always one I felt had that beautiful artwork, but the gameplay never lived up to it.
Quoted from swampfire:If you were a trained pinball player, you’d have a better appreciation for the gameplay.
I happen to love the artwork and the slightly rubenesque Mata Hari portrayed - but both my wife and I love the game play, especially the a b loop - appropriate for a "double spy" I think.
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