I don't think it will jump that much. My guess is 9k standard/10k LE.

I would be in fo sho on a 3 magnet CGC TZ.

The 3rd magnet allows the game to grab all 3 balls to start multi ball which is a cool effect (and already in the code). But you could do even more tricks with extended code.

7 is too many? And 4 of those are just image likeness? I just remember Raul/Angelica doing the callouts with a few movie quotes sprinkled in from Lloyd? I doubt Angelica or the estate of Raul would be hard licenses - maybe just Lloyd.

But recreating something that has already been approved (and 20k of them exist) is always an easier license than creating something new. I doubt it's as hard as people make it out to be.

I don't think the 1500 number is odd at all. I bet that will be the number of LE games this time (CCRLE was 1250) and those will be made first. They had intended to make CCRLE first as well, but had topper design/supply issues so made the SEs first.

I'd like to see TOTAN as well if the code were extended/tweaked.

But I have it on very good authority that the TOTAN license is currently unavailable. Not sure if it's due to the Mirco TOTAN kit or what - I just know that they couldn't do TOTAN right now even if they wanted to.

Gone at Disneyland, still there at Disneyworld (Hollywood Studios).

Why does everyone assume widebodies are so much more costly to build than standard bodies? I doubt TZ's BOM is even $500 more than CC's. Spooky is pricing a Scooby Doo widebody under $10k, and I'm sure TZr will be about the same price. $10k LE, $9k SE is a modest jump over CC prices - and a welcome option over current Stern/JJP pricing.

So Spooky can make a brand new widebody for under $10k, but CGC can't make a remake widebody for the same price?

Not every manufacturer is stupid enough to follow JJP over the cliff...most of us passed on TS4 because of the cost alone - it's why several distribs still have TS4CEs in stock.

You brought up "TS4 pricing" - not me, so not sure how I'm "crowbarring" it into the conversation.

But you just made my point for me - "Spooky isn't even sold out at under $10k" is exactly why CGC wouldn't be stupid enough to price TZr at TS4 levels. "Plenty of people would buy a brand new TZ for over $10k" is not 1500 LEs and 1500 SEs. If they price it attractively (ie $9k SE/ $10k LE), they will sell 3k of them (or more).

CCr SE is $8k, correct. So a $9k TZr SE would make you more money per unit as the difference in CC BOM vs TZ BOM is highly likely to be less than $1k.

The Scooby playfield is a widebody - they just made the shot trajectories similar to a standard body.

FE5CD4AD-CF7D-4D6C-AA26-668B56ADCEB7 (resized).jpeg

You started it!

Also note Alien pricing - it's a widebody that had to be completely re-engineered (and has to be shipped from Sweden), yet they can make a profit at $9k SE, $10.7k LE.

I doubt it works that way. In every company I've worked for, anything I create for them while working there is 100% owned by them.

The licensing for the sounds, visuals, theme works differently of course - those rights owners will receive compensation for any new games created.

I bought a Haggis Fathom Mermaid because I think it is the most beautiful game ever made - I don't have any pre-dmd games otherwise.

As for TZ, it's simple math. To get a completely restored TZ with new everything, it's going to cost $13-$18k. But a new CGC TZr (with improved screen, sound, RGB lights and topper) would be $10k (ish).

TZr would sell like hotcakes.

It's near impossible to reproduce without the original mold/press as it's a textured (and colored) foil.

Don't get him started - Punchy The Clown Remake

Hah - I'm not advocating for it - just explaining the acronym.

It feels like we've had this discussion before...

I'll 100% buy TZr at $10k (ish) and I'll 100% pass at $13k. My guess is at least 80% of potential purchasers would feel the same. CGC isn't stupid.

They've done well so far because they have stayed below Stern/JJP pricing. CCRLE was priced at $9250 when Stern was charging $10.5k for GZLE and JJP was charging $10k (later raised to $11k) for GnRLE.

I'm torn as CGC quality has been exceptional so far.

I'm an optimist, so I'm hoping they've already built 1000 TZs on the secondary line and will have them ready to sell at TPF2023.

You should switch campfires.

CGC has the license to remake TZ.

I've been told by a source close to CGC, but not directly from CGC - so take that FWIW. flynnibus is correct in his explanation from what my sources state, but I believe they probably have several future titles locked in at this point. They've stated what their target games were long ago but certain titles have increased more in value that others, so I'm sure that list changes over time. It's not hard to figure out by looking at the market - TZ, TOTAN, CV, BBB (and IJ/TAF if licensing can be obtained) are all still $10k+ aftermarket games.

Schwa? Maybe they rise a little over time, but as I can recall, when each remake came out, the originals all went down:

MM was $15-$20k and fell to $8k (maybe $10k-ish now?)
AFM was $9k and fell to $6k ($8k now?)
MB was $10k and fell to $7k ($8k now?)
CC was $15k+ and fell to $10k

*every* remake LE fetches more than an original (exceptional restorations excluded)

That's why I put the "ish" on MM - a lot of the originals are restored to some extent, so finding a lightly touched original is a challenge.

But if you are wanting one, wait for the remake SEs to come out later this year. That will push the prices down again for a short while.

Why would it not be $8k for an SE like CCSE?

Scooby Doo SE is a widebody LCD and sells for $7769.

I forgot to mention Alien SE which is a widebody lcd and costs $8595 (but has to be shipped from Italy).

It's just an extra 3" of playfield, but ok - let's go with $8500 SE/$9750 CE. Make it so.

You are incorrect - Scooby is a widebody playfield. At least the one sitting 5 feet away from me is.

70A99576-E45A-47F9-8B62-618D0161D139 (resized).jpeg

You are probably thinking about Rick's post here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/monster-bash-remake-this-game-is-scary-good-chicago-gaming-company/page/2#post-4127913

So, as of 5 years ago, there were 7 remakes planned (3 more to go). The other 2 titles mentioned by Rick as possibilities were ToM and BBB. But as Rick also said - the potential list could change over time. If CGC thinks they could sell more TZr games than BBB or ToM, then it might actually happen.

I've heard others make this argument, but I don't quite understand it. Pinball machines are hand built by all manufacturers. Every single title requires retooling (ramps, toys, playfields, dimple press, wire harness looms, etc). I don't see how adding a couple of inches to a playfield requires extensive changes otherwise. Spooky just made their first widebody and I didn't hear anything about mass "re-tooling" efforts.

I'm not trying to refute what you are saying, just asking for your perspective.

You do realize that CGC is the same company as Churchill Cabinet, right? They've been making cabinets and playfields for many decades, so they already have the experience and tooling necessary to make widebody cabinets/playfields.

I don't know if you've seen this, but it's a fascinating look into the factory:

https://www.pinballnews.com/learn/churchill/index.html

There are certainly CNC machines and presses, but for the most part everything is hand assembled. The playfield inserts/sanding/screening/clearing are all manual processes.

Edit - I found the pic I was thinking about. Here is an original TZ playfield stamped "CCC" (Churchill Cabinet Company). So there you have it - CGC actually made some of the original TZ playfields long ago! So yes, they have all the tooling needed and perhaps even the original silkscreens.

TZ_CCC (resized).png

Looking at the market, I would say TOTAN or TAF or IJ would be the smart move (assuming licensing was possible on the latter 2).

Any of those 3 with enhanced/extended code would be incredible.

Having said that, I would 100% be in on a $10k TZ LE too (with or without extended code).